I missed a couple of posts. Snowbelle, thanks for your advice.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Proceed to D. If he really wants his family back a little thing like a divorce won't stop him. He'll try to win you back. Chances are though, once you tell him you won't set it aside, he'll go back to OW with his tail between his legs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, if he really did want to win me back, he wouldn't quit once we got D. I'm not sure if he'll go back to OW. He has seen her true colors and her instability. He told me he tried to leave her several times and she would go berserk and threaten her own life. He put himself into quite a mess. Now that he's dumped her, he needs to just leave her alone....heal himself before he ever jumps into another relationship. He has to be able to look at himself in the mirror and like what he sees before he can truly be in a loving relationship. He is also totally pissed that she spilled the beans to me just out of spite because he wanted to come back to me.

Thanks for your advice Comfortably Numb.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You are not filled with anger, you are not raging about you WH about the OW, etc. You are indifferent to him at this point, and that is what people feel when they truly ready for divorce.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I think I'm in a good place to make this decision. I do feel sad for him, but pity is not a reason to take someone back.

Won't,

Ya know...there is something that is often over looked on this site. It is that it is a marriage building site IF the person that will do the work (that would be you) wants the marriage to continue. It is NOT a marriage at all costs site.

Until YOU change your mind about not wanting this marriage, there is no reason for you to change your direction. So don't second guess yourself, let actions and DATA tell you where you should be.

I think you have read both correctly. This is a round about way of saying quite simply: I agree with WAT and Pepper. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I suppose I could have just said that, but then their egos would grow too large. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Seriously, you have no data to indicate anything has changed particularly with respect to H except that soon he will become your exH. Stay on course "Steady as she goes".

God Bless,

JL

Hi Nid,
We all knew you weren't crazy and that he was involved in a PA from all of the actions you described.

You can help lots of folks here having experienced this turmoil in your life.

I understand your wanting to move on and D. I remember that your H always through your A back at you as the cause for his unhappiness. I seem to remember that you fessed up and ended your A at D-day. Did you have a period of time when you denied it and lead him to believe that you weren't involved in an A? You know the answers to those questions. His level of betrayal may have been way more than your. There have been some around here that have agreed to call it even after both had A's. Then you can put both behind you.

I would think that it wouldn't harm anything for you to slow down the D process a bit and postpone it for a few months as you see if he is at all able to show by his actions that he is truly sincere in wanting his family back and will have absolutely NC with OW.

What reasons did he give to finally end it with OW?

It is still possible to get back your love for your H, It would take lots of work, and commitment to repair all the damage done. There are no guarantees that a new relationship won't have any of the problems you experienced in your M down the road. You know all the crap that comes along with the man you married. You won't know for sure what you are getting with a new guy until several years go by.

He is the only real Dad your son will ever have. For that reason, I think it is worth it to let the dust settle and see if he is capable of being a man you can respect again. He is the only real grandfather any of your grandkids will ever have too. I remember how much you loved your H. If is possible to have a better marriage that pre-A's after all the pain you've gone through together.

Trix, the moment he discovered my A 6 years ago and I saw the pain I caused him, I ENDED IT right away. That is the difference. He saw my pain, listened to my suspicions and insisted what I had done was so much worse because he wasn't having a PA......LIES all along. He watched my agony for a year and continued with what he was doing and continued to tell me it was all my fault and he wasn't as bad as me because it wasn't a PA.....LIES. He basically tortured me. I am healed now....I don't want to go through this anymore.

He said he ended it with OW because he finally realized it was me he loved, not her. I also think that the reality of the divorce both financially and the loss of daily living with his son has had a big effect on his wanting to come back to me. You can't be planning a future with someone (OW) one day, and then fall back in love with your W the next!

I'm not going to put my life on hold anymore for him. He is going to have to deal with the consequences of his actions. I'm happy and peaceful and I want to stay this way.

I'm certainly not advising you to let him move back in any time soon. He has to prove himself with a considerable amount of time. I agree with the others that the decision is your whether or not to proceed with the D. I just can't see the harm in seeing if he can prove his resolve this time...on his own...not living with you...and staying the h*** away from her.

I don't really think you can trust that this isn't just a holiday sentimental syndrome of sorts of second guessing himself.

It wasn't a good thing that he told you he would not turn back if you continued with the D. That right there showed that his resolve is not what you'd want it to be.

I am glad to hear that you and your son have adjusted and have been doing well. I had wondered how you've been doing. Thanks for checking in...and I do think you can be of help around here since you've ridden the rollercoaster and survived.

Thanks, Trix.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He has to prove himself with a considerable amount of time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is what I am unwilling to do....give him more time. Some may think that is wrong, but oh my gosh....I just can't, especially given the fact there would still be so much uncertainty in so many ways....trust, love, honesty, friendship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I don't really think you can trust that this isn't just a holiday sentimental syndrome of sorts of second guessing himself.

It wasn't a good thing that he told you he would not turn back if you continued with the D. That right there showed that his resolve is not what you'd want it to be.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I considered the holiday thing, it was hard for me too.....you know, not hanging up his stocking and not putting our "First Christmas Together" ornament on the tree. But I can't get wrapped up in sentimentalities anymore, I had put that behind me.

And you're right about his attitude about not turning back about the D. Its almost like he was trying to intimidate me, to manipulate me. He keeps telling me "Well, you're going to look back one day and regret it....but I wish you well." You know, I've had enough of his manipulation tactics.

It's hard to imagine an EA with only a kiss would provoke the emotions of the OW that you describe. I personally am inclined to believe her... or at least enough to agree with your assessment that WH is in fact a WH (and liar).

I can understand the desire to move on and also the feeling of not being able to love him again. I have seen another side of my H that I don't like - a person whose behavior has caused me to lose respect for him, and I have now seen him as a different person than I had thought he was. Like you, I don't know if I could get the feelings back (at least without too much baggage brought along to make it work.)

I don't think you should feel guilty about how you are feeling. It's OK to not be willing to do it again. I don't know what is best for the kids, but the on again, off again, bad feelings, and constant stress can't be good for them either.

Thanks, DV
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's hard to imagine an EA with only a kiss would provoke the emotions of the OW that you describe. I personally am inclined to believe her... or at least enough to agree with your assessment that WH is in fact a WH (and liar).
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, after she told me everything we confronted him. He doesn't deny any of it....now.

Sadly, if he had come clean himself....long ago when I gave him so many chances and was willing to do anything to save my M....maybe things would be different. There's too much water under the bridge now. I don't want to live this life anymore. Bottom line is too many times he chose not hurting her over not hurting me, his wife of 11 years, his family. He chose her over me too many times. He watched me crawl in a hole and practically die instead of letting her go. I can't deal with that reality, fog or no fog.....it was emotional abuse.

I think many of us gave our spouses opportunities to come clean and they didn't until the evidence was staring them in the face. I know mine did.
I went through false recoveries...on and off crap for about 4 yrs. Then 2 yrs after that he had an A with a different woman that lasted 8 months. I was made to think that I waa crazy many times over. I was blamed for all kinds of thing. Now he can't even believe he had been capable of saying the stuff he had said. He can't believe he felt or acted the way he did. It all seems like a nightmare now.

We are now in recovery another 2 yrs and doing great.

Your H would need to be big time remorseful, repentent, and completely transparent. Anything less and there is too much risk. But, only you know what you can and can't deal with and heal from. Your situation is not that unique...your H is like many other WS's. Lying is second nature for them. Denial is the name of the game. You were told all along that he was lying...that he was blaming you to justify his own guilt. He sounded very typical to me. It seems like a long time but really it hasn't been. It is about how long many A's take to burn themselves out. I am sure you read that too. It is too bad for him if he took a bit longer than you were able to forgive him for...your lovebank is now empty and you can't see it refilling.

I hope you haven't moved on to such a degree that you have someone else already. I would think it was too soon for that. New relationships can muddy the waters too much and cause you to miss the opportunity to rebuild if in fact it can be real this time.

I hope you will wait until you are D'd a year or 2 before you get serious about someone else. I always thought that you are probably a very attractive woman with lots to offer and you will not have any problem meeting someone else if that is what you want when you are really ready.

Thanks, Trix.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is too bad for him if he took a bit longer than you were able to forgive him for...your lovebank is now empty and you can't see it refilling.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It really isn't about me forgiving him anymore. I have forgiven him,I've been forgiving him all along the way. Do you know that he even played on my forgiving nature that night that OW and I confronted him? He said, "But please, you're so forgiving, give me a chance." This is about me being able to put all the damage he has done aside and love him again....and not just love him, because I will always "love" him, but truly love him the way I want to love someone. I'm not angry, not bitter, don't hate anyone....not anymore. I like the way I feel right now. You're right, my love bank is empty....no its got a huge negative balance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hope you haven't moved on to such a degree that you have someone else already. I would think it was too soon for that. New relationships can muddy the waters too much and cause you to miss the opportunity to rebuild if in fact it can be real this time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is someone interested in me and me in him, but I didn't let that happen until I knew there was no turning back for me. My H gave me absolutely no indication that he had any hope. We were going through with the D, he was seeing (although he didn't admit it, I knew) OW, and we were arguing like usual. I would never get started with someone if I knew I would turn back to my H if he came crawling back. It was only a matter of putting my signature on the paper. This OM and I talked and said we wouldn't start anything until after the D. We even discussed that it wouldn't be a good idea for either of us to get serious. He didn't want to do that to me so soon. So we just wanted to hang out and enjoy each other's company now and then, no expectations on either one's part.

So that whole thing really has no bearing on my decision. My H wants me to love him completely and unconditionally and I'm sure that I can't, not now. I look at him and I feel sadness, but I also feel an overwhelming sense that I don't know who he is.....that scares me. Do you know that OW told me that he had another affair before her? So every time I piss him off or don't feel like SF , is this what he'll do to me? I don't want to live that way anymore. My mind is clear, nothing is muddy. And I'm not relying only on my own wisdom. I take my thoughts, I talk to close friends, I consult my family, I talk to my priest, and most of all I pray. Believe it or not, I have heard the word of God speaking to me many times throughout this whole ordeal and I trust it more than anything else. My mind is clear as a bell....I am letting him go.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Just Learning:
<strong> Ya know...there is something that is often over looked on this site. It is that it is a marriage building site IF the person that will do the work (that would be you) wants the marriage to continue. It is NOT a marriage at all costs site. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Glad to hear you say this. Since I made the decision to stop working on my M and to move out, I've felt like I wasn't doing what I "should" be doing. But, nobody has walked in the shoes of my relationship (or that of anyone else either) . There does come a point when continued effort is not productive - and maybe an individual can't cope with it any longer. But, if it was meant to be - then I truly believe God will bring two people back together in the future - perhaps when both have healed, but at least when they are both free to interact again without unmet obligations and without old baggage getting in the way.

For me, I continue to stay here at MB because my H and I have both acknowledged that the future is unknown and neither of us wants to burn the bridges between us. I've read other people's posts about taking a spouse back and not really changing things - and still ending up DV in the end. So, in the event my H ever wanted to reconcile, I want to know I've learned all I could about being the spouse I would want to be. I also want to be more clear in my mind about what I want and need in a relationship, how I will get past being a conflict avoider, and how I will learn to assert myself for what I need, instead of keeping quiet, or worse - blocking out my own feelings.

Thanks for your post - I've been quietly wondering if I should now leave this board since I'm not working on my M any more (and am not sure I care anymore either.)

Deja Vu, you know I was wondering the same thing....why am I here? I think maybe its just to get a little understanding that sometimes you just have to call it quits. I guess if people had been saying "You need to take him back no matter what!", maybe then I would have questioned my decision.....but I'm pretty stubborn when I've got my mind made up so I doubt it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But that's not what I've been hearing.

The divorced/divorcing post isn't very active...I would assume because this is a marriage building site <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> .

So, I'm probably going to check out. I'll visit time to time and try to offer advice. My biggest advice (WAT....I should have had more guts) is to EXPOSE EARLY!!!!! And I should have kicked my WH out a lot sooner, too. Live and learn I suppose. Maybe I can help someone else.

I love all of you guys....Since Sept. 2003 when TOOMUCHCOFFEEMAN offered me my first piece of advice to all of you in between and today....you have helped me immeasureably. God Bless and may 2005 bring you joy.

You can expose him now. You ought to to drive a spike in the affair. Otherwise, with your rebuff, he may slink back to her.

With FULL exposure, they'll both have to deal not only with whatever their relationship problem is, but also with scrutiny from everyone else.

In sum, pile on. Give them the whole nine yards at once. Let's see what they're made of - as if we didn't already know.

WAT

Oh WAT, they have been fully exposed. That happened right after he moved out in Aug., but he didn't find out that everyone knew until about 2 months ago. He was FUMING mad and threatened to tell everyone about what I did to him 6 years ago. Funny thing is, all my friends already knew about that and thought it irrelevant.

Shortly after he found out people knew, I think that is when he started to crash and realize that being with OW wasn't all he thought it would be. And once I kept pestering him about getting certain things to my attorney and I seemed utterly at peace and happy and comfortable with life, he started to think about his choices.