Gypsy, how far into recovery are you? When was your affair and how long have you been in recovery? How long since your last contact with the OM? How familiar are you with the Marriage Builders principles?

P.S. Welcome to Marriage Builders <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hi GypsyWind,

Thanx for responding.

You're probably wondering why I'm so interested in your thread?

You sound a LOT like my WH when we would try to recover. Also, comments like "things happen" are sort of red flags to the more experienced posters here, as an indication that full responsibility is still being avoided, that fog is still in effect.

I can only imagine how painful and embarrassing it must be to admit something like betraying your spouse's trust. I understand the desire of a wayward spouse to not want to go into much detail and to just try to put it behind them. In fact, I used to be SO understanding of the wayward spouse's discomfort that I allowed my WH to dictate the terms of recovery, per his comfort level. This mistake only enabled him to repeat his mistake and ultimately destroyed our marriage.

Please understand that it is not the desire of the posters here to prolong or deepen your shame. It's just that we know from experience that comments like "things happen", coupled with a resistance to answering specific questions, does NOT result in marital recovery.

When was the last time you had ANY sort of contact with the OM?

Is your husband aware of any and all contact you have had with the OM?

What specific precautions have you taken to become accountable to your husband AND to prevent ANY contact with the OM? What changes have you implemented in your marriage, workplace, computer usage, etc. to ENSURE "things" will never just "happen" again?

I understand how you had some unmet needs and past issues which helped make you susceptible, HOWEVER, what justifications did you TELL YOURSELF, what situations did you ALLOW yourself to be in, that you now realize endangered your marriage and family? None of us will ever have all our needs met, all of us have issues in our pasts, any of us can either put ourselves into or find ourselves in situations...

But when you have made a committment to be faithful (marriage) then REGARDLESS of the situation, past issues, unmet needs, we need to take full responsibility to ensure we don't betray that trust. WHAT were you saying to yourself that enabled you to take "things" a tad too far? How did you give yourself permission to get involved emotionally with an OM? What made it "understandable" for you?

THAT is what you need to address, not avoid, in order for full recovery.

I can only hope you are not being as evasive with your WH as you are with the posters here! Because if you are, IMHO your WH would be makign a BIG mistake in trusting you. I made the same mistake with my WH - trusted him again without him having to do all that was needed for recovery.

Does your WH know you are posting here? Do you show him your messages here and the responses? Do you answer all his questions, in as much detail as he needs? Does he expect you to take responsibility for your part in this? Or does he assume all the blame, expanding his mistakes to incorporate more than his share of the cause?
Does he accept that it was totally your past issues, the situation you 'found' yourself in, and his failure to meet all your needs? Or does he hold you accountable for your part in your mistake?

BTW, I did see that movie. (MY daughters and I are almost as interested in ballroom dance as we are into skating.) It was funny but IMO makes the mistake of downplaying his keeping a secret from his wife. It sort of even made it seem justifiable or even healthy for spouses to carry on part of their lives in secret, to look outside the marriage to have some important needs met.

Meremortal,
I totally understand what you mean about being honest and open and completely transparent with your spouse about the past mistakes that led you to an affair. I have discussed all of those things in much length to my husband and we are at a good stage in our marriage now. The air has been cleared, the storm has past and we are able to predict the upcoming weather patterns in our marriage better than ever before. He knows that I post here ocassionally if he want to read what I write he knows he can. When the .....hit the fan and all of the terrible truth came out. I became completely transparent with my spouse. I made sure he had complete access to my cell phone, my email all of my passwords, could open any mail that I receive. Check on my finances whatever he wished. He monitored them for a while and still does occasionally and that is fine with me because there are not secrets and nothing to worry about. I let him know where I am at all times and when I will be late coming home from work or because I ran into an accident on the way home.That is the way our marriage had been in the past. It is possible to regain trust. But the 2 people in the marriage have to work on it together. I have luckily moved out of the area that the OM lives in and works in.....3 times before I had moved to another area I would go shopping with my daughter and look up and dang nab it there he would be....I would pretend that I did not know him, I would wisk myself and my daughter away from the store we were in and run for the hills as they would say. I did not want to have any futher contact with the person who was bad for me......I had made my decision to work on my marriage and I was not going to do anything that would jeopardize it. Hope I answered your quesions. I understand what fog is,
it has cleared a long time ago. Sometimes people have to reflect upon what has happened, how they have changed, what progress they have made. I don't like picking at a scab that just keeps bleeding. The OM means nothing to me. Only the great spouse that I have now. You never realize what you have until you almost lose it. We are like diamonds, sometimes with a lot of pressure we turn into a beautiful gem like a diamond. God has changed my marriage for the better and he has changed me for the better as well. Never tell someone that it won't change...because it can. Miracles do happen. Encourage and uplift others in their successes, help them learn from their failures. And you will see once again how beautiful life is and how the spark in goodness in every soul can shine through if given a chance.

GypsyWind, I think you're all wet. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and that's mine.

You've been asked sincere questions and you've attempted to dodge each one. Sometimes in not replying, a person's actions can speak louder than their words.

You have noted that you have been reading for years...I believe 2? Why and never posted? Is it because the OP or his wife post here and you're lurking to learn of their recovery efforts?

I'm new to all of this, but in my opinion from reading your posts, you're still deep in "fog" and stinging from the fact that your affair ended not on your timetable, but on someone elses. Perhaps you were dumped by the OP or it came to a halt because it was revealed to your husband. Whoever outed you and revealed your affair to your husband should be hugged, not scorned. They embraced the truth and decided to reveal your secret life. Shame on you for not doing this yourself. I think you're angry for having been "caught".

For the record, libel is written untruths. Slander is verbal untruths. And for either to have any merit in a court of law, one must prove economic damages. Your case, as you have revealed it here, falls considerably short.

Own your choices, Gypsy. To state that the OM's wife "seems" intelligent, and that she really doesn't know him - but you do - is offensive. You're the Other Woman, remember. I realize that your need to namecall is driven from anger at being outed, but let me tell you he was not a Cad anymore than you were a willing whore. Namecalling stings, doesn't it? Own your choices. Find out what was so broken inside of YOU that you felt the need to betray everyone that trusted in you and you became a willing participant - not the lamb being led to slaughter as you have tried to portray yourself.

That's huge.

And figure out, for you, why you're angry at the OP's wife. Is it because he left you for her?

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: CindyLouWho ]</small>

Hi CindyLouWho,

I was suspecting some of the same things...

WHY is GypsyWind posting here?

She is hesitant to answer any specific questions, claims her marriage has recovered, and no further examination of what she did is needed.

Sooo... what is she looking for here?

Too much of what she says to explain why the affair happened is just fog-ease. She posts comments that make it sound as if she's taken responsibility BUT surrounds those comments with LOTS of stuff about the OM being a cad who took advantage of her, her needs weren't being met, she has always been the good girl, she was understandably weak, blah-blah-blah.

Are we supposed to feel sorry for her? Or applaud her ending her affair (after she got caught and the OM decided to stay with his wife)?
Repeated attempts to get her to clarify, when responded to at all, are met with more excuses, some posing at taking responsibility, assurances it's in the past and will never "happen" again, and what really sounds like blaming others IMO.
She almost makes it sound as if somebody DID this TO her rather than her having made an immoral choice.

I should look through the thread again, but I don't remember her saying much about the fact that SHE did something to hurt the OM's wife.
The truth is she chose to become a rival to his betrayed wife, to secretly and unfairly compete with the wife for the OM's affection.

Sometimes I feel like asking her:
"So are you saying that this OM brainwashed you into have an inappropriate relationship?"

IMHO she needs to admit that she took pleasure from the OM's attention. She desired and enjoyed what he offered. And while she was partaking in that pleasure, the fact that she was betraying her husband and the OM's wife was less important to her than getting what she wanted.

I also believe that her attitude towards the OM's wife is insulting and sounds like jealousy.
She seems angry at the OM and his wife for some reason. And yes, it does appear to be that reason is because somebody exposed the affair before she was ready to end it and the OM then chose his wife over her.

Only THEN she was able to notice that he was a "cad"? Hmmm...

You are the one who was deceitful not his wife -remember that one.

Meremortal,

The more I think about the comments made by Gypsy, the more I think she's not so much a remorseful wayward spouse, but a scorned Other Woman.

Her clues can be found in her namecalling, painting herself as a woman duped into doing something so terribly out of character for herself because she's always been a good girl, and declaring a few times that she's changed, she gets it, she and her husband are thrilled with their recovery, and how she thinks sometimes not telling is a better plan than being honest. I say fog, fog, fog.

I'm new to this, but not new to MB principles. I have all the books, but posting is something new. So, Gypsy stands out as a gutless OW that would prefer to pass off her part of destroying other people's lives (within her family and to another family) as being caused by some Cad that she felt like she was in love with. She was a willing participant. She even says that you can sometimes meet someone that you could spend the rest of your life with, but the timing isn't right and you have another relationship. Does that sound like a remorseful person? Give me a break!

If she's been reading here for two years before she got up the nerve to post, she needs to go do some more reading because MB principles aren't sinking in.

My advice to her is this: Get real. Drop all the cliches and just talk to us. No one appreciates being lectured to about how we all need to get on with life and just have one big group hug and love everyone. And get real about responsibility.

You didn't have an affair because you were duped, you did it because you could. And you chose to do it.

You didn't have an affair because your husband was off being a good father to YOUR children and was being a good provider for your family - you did it because you decided to betray his trust and you didn't think you'd get caught.

You didn't have an affair because you were in a weakened state and a dark period in your life undergoing counseling - because you were in a prime place to tell your counselor what was going on in your life and what your temptations were - but you lied to him too. You became an accomplished liar, and it was working for you until you got caught.

You didn't have an affair because you were lacking affection, attention, had aging dying parents, etc - you did it because at that time, nothing - absolutely nothing - mattered more to you than your own petty selfishness.

Own it. Its real. And its the real you.

Once you do, that's when your REAL healing will begin.

I totally agree CindyLouWho!

I find it very difficult to believe Gypsy has been reading here for two years. If that were true, she should have learned by now that we know fog-talk when we hear it LOL

I would love to see the timeline of this affair... So she supposedly starting reading here two years ago... When did the emotional affair begin? Two years is an awful long time for things to supposedly never gotten to the physical stage... When was the affair exposed? When did the affair end? When exactly was the last contact with OM? Why did she feel the need to start posting now? If the affair has been over long enough for her to win back her husband's trust and do all needed damage repair, then why is she still so angry about the exposure? And why does she still have such strong emotions about the OM going back to his wife?

I think it makes a BIG differnece whether or not the adulterers confess or get caught.

And I also agree that she sounds more like a woman scorned than a truly repentant former WS.

IF her betrayed husband now trusts her as much as she claims, has been convinced by her that the OM was such a cad that his 'good girl' wife simply couldn't be blamed, then IMHO he is making a mistake. Plus that makes her put-downs of the OM's wife, for staying with her wayward spouse, sound pretty strange!

ummm... meremortal and Cindylou.... chill out a lil bit? Is GypsyWind causing any harm here? If so, address it directly. If not, then... well... If you want her details, fine... perhaps she will give them... if she wants... when she's ready. Maybe you can ask her, respectfully, without all the judgments and assumptions. If she's up to no-good, it will be evident soon-enough. There's no rules here about telling your story. By the way, we don't know your story, CindylouWHO, so we would be honored if you would start yourself a thread and introduce yourself. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Otherwise, your first 2 posts here are attacks on someone else. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 05:15 PM: Message edited by: Faith1 ]</small>

Faith1,

You can't detect her hostility towards the OM's wife?

As far as we can tell her only purpose in posting here was to put down a betrayed wife, vent her anger towards the OM, and make threats of legal action (that would be laughed out of court) towards the person who exposed the affair.

Oh, yea, and she wants everyone to know what a good girl she is too...

I see nothing wrong with calling an OW on obvious fog talk - nothing new about that here - happens all the time. This isn't exactly the first time somebody has come here claiming to be a FORMER wayward spouse but was still so enshrouded in fog that they were called on it!

IMHO Gypsy is quite skilled at con-artistry herself... maybe she learned it from that 'cad' she was involved with (for what? two years?)...

Hey, if you believe her and want to applaud her for:

her honesty (while dodging even the most simple, usual questions?)

ending her affair (because somebody else exposed it?)

managing to miraculously repair her marriage and regain her husband's trust (in record time? she won't tell us how long ago the affair was exposed, when last contact with OM was, etc.)

taking responsibility for what she did
(or what she didn't do but for some unexplainable reason somebody else claimed she did AND it wasn't really her fault because the other man was a 'cad', she's a 'good girl', her husband was paying attention to their children, etc,)...

Then go right ahead.

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 09:20 PM: Message edited by: meremortal ]</small>

Faith, while I appreciate your interjection, its totally unfounded.

I think its terrific that GypsyWind has come to marriage builders to try to pass along what she has learned and how she has grown from this experience. I believe this was the purpose that she stated. I say, "welcome!" I think wayward spouses and betrayed spouses can both benefit.

Where I have a tad of a problem is the inconsistency in her messaging. In my opinion, that is harmful to those that are seeking to recover.

I don't know how to drag over quotes from her posts to illustrate her mixed messaging - but if you read them all again, they are apparent. Of course, they are laced with mixed metaphors and and a bunch of other things that you have to weed through, but the message is clear:

She's recovered because of a loving husband that didn't want to know details and so she didn't have to provide them, that frankly honesty isn't always the best policy because sometimes not knowing may be the better plan according to her, and that if you don't meet your spouses needs, they cannot be held responsible for wandering outside the marriage.

She also relates that she DID have a physical affair, but she doesn't think its as bad as it is because the emotional affair they had was far more damaging (to whom?), that she loved that Cad, and she knows him better than his wife, and though wife "seems" intelligent, she sure doesn't act like it because she took him back - at least that's what people have told her.

She's entitled to believe whatever she wants about her lover, his wife, her husband, their recovery, etc. That's her reality.

Where I have a problem is when a person comes here and begins to water down their betrayal to the point that they were nearly brainwashed by the smooth talking of the OP. Where does choice come into this? Life is about choices. We all make 'em. Good ones and bad ones. Sometimes really really bad ones. So, own it. What's wrong with that?

From my post, I am both a wayward spouse and a betrayed spouse. This thread isn't about me, but suffice it to say - I own my mistakes. No excuses.

So in many ways, I understand what it feels like to be brave enough to post here and admit the biggest failure of your life. But after that admission, it sure erodes your credibility if you start parceling off blame to everyone else on the block for your poor choices.

Maybe it feels better for Gypsy to project herself that way, I dunno. All I can say is when I realized what a collossal failure I had become because of my deliberate choices and lies - I made a decided decision (a choice!)to repent, make restitution, and rebuild my marriage. And, I chose to do it the Harley way with counseling, books, tapes, etc - all applying his principles.

So now, back to you Gypsy, my new friend. My words, while harsh, were simply a wake-up call. Because it appears that so many identify with the similarities of situations posted here - you're likely to hurt the feelings of betrayed spouses when you speak of the wayward husband as a cad and characterize yourself as "the good girl". They will connect the dots in a nano second and flash.

As you can see, I'm also a wayward spouse. And I would never come here and not accept 100% of the blame for my actions. Just a thought for you to think about.

I hope you will continue posting. I'll try to sit on my hands and go back to my books, tapes, etc.

Faith,
Thanks for the support. I felt like I was a little fish in a barrel of barracudas. How someone can make assumptions about you without knowing you personally. You can not charterize everyone or everybody is being a clone of people you know. Think I should just leave this site because I came to offer encouragement to others regarding the things that have helped me and my situation. I didn't want to be interrogated.

Gypsy,

I'm sorry that my posts to you made you feel badly. That was not my intent. I take full responsibility and would like to be the first to invite you to stay.

I still believe you do have many valuable things that can contribute to the healing of those that come to this board if you choose to participate. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I think concrete feedback on what worked for you, what didn't work for you, etc would be welcome.

Let me also say this. I know you. Not in a real sense, but I have recovered from this and I know its painful to look back.

I hope you feel better.

<small>[ March 03, 2005, 07:32 PM: Message edited by: CindyLouWho ]</small>

CindyLouWho
I appreciate your last post. I think people need to acess who their tone in their writing can come across. You don't have the tone of voice or the facial expression to judge what someone is trying to say and get across. Thanks for saying that you did not mean to be so harsh. I was a bit blown away with your post and Meremortals. We should help each other not interject what we think a person has gone through. We can't know someone's life until we have walked in their shoes. I think we both could post some interesting questions. Espcially you because you have been on both sides of the coin which I think would be helpful in letting others know what it is like to experience being the bs and the ws.

Let's just keep the tone and posts on a positive note. Add to posts where we can and refrain from being too harsh. - Gypsy