OK...step six of The Choosing to Forgive Workbook by Carter and Minirth that wasstubborn & I have read, cl has ordered but everybody is welcome to join in the discussion. All previous 5 threads are hear somewhere if you are interested in searching for them.<P>This is a difficult chapter to present because it speaks to judging and dealing with people who judge you...so we have to consider both sides. In fact the following checklist sounds more for people who are being judged. Since most of us in this discussion have been betrayed, maybe we should also think of how our spouse might feel.<P>To determine if judgment is a potential hurdle to your forgiveness process, consider the following:<P>* I feel like I just can't please certain key people.<BR>* My good accomplishments seem overshadowed by the bad.<BR>* I have felt snubbed.<BR>* No matter how well I explain my feelings, I am met with rebuttals.<BR>* False things have been said about me behind my back.<BR>* When others talk about my problems, it seems they overlook their own frailties.<BR>* People have withdrawn from me because of a conflict or a mistake.<BR>* At times I have an exaggerated desire to explain myself to others.<BR>* I'm not sure who accepts me and who doesn't.<BR>* I feel like people's minds are made up even if they don't know all the facts.<BR>* People have talked down to me.<BR>* I have determined that it's not safe to be open with many people.<P>If you agree with six or more statements, you may be in an environment that feels judgmental. You are more likely to feel defensive and as a result your ability to move forward toward a forgiving spirit is more difficult.<P>A judgmental spirit can be discouraging, but you can still forgive. Forgiveness is a choice you make even if people you are in conflict with do not coorperate. You can choose forgiveness because of your independent commitment to a right way of life.<P>In order to separate yourself from others' judgments and your own temptation to judge in return there are 2 factors: (1) The excessive emphasis society places on evaluations and (2) The universal struggle with sinful pride.<P>1. We are evaluated throughout life...and as young children we learn to openly solicit good judgements. This lifelong evaluation emphasis has quite an impacct of forgiveness because we struggle with either being upset when we feel others are giving us "low" grades and we cannot get past the tendency to evaluate others, meaning we hold people in contempt beyond the point of it being constructive.<P>God does not intend for humans to judge humans. He wants us to maintain standards of right and wrong. He wants us to be accountable. He allows us to experience consequences for poor choices. But he does not want us sitting in the judgement seat.<P>The better alternative to judgment begins with descriptive thinking. You can have opinions about right and wrong, but describe how you feel about circumstances without giving grades. <P>You can not stop people from judging you, but you can unhook (there's that gentle detatchment again) from judgements. Be honest to yourself about the rights and wrongs that have occured, but don't assume you have to play up to anyone to make an A on their report card. (I'm thinking he means that you are accountable to God and if you are now rectifying your mistakes and humans are unreasonable, you have to detatch your emotional reaction from them) <P>Letting go of judgments is neither easy or natural.<P>Understanding the nature of pride(in the netative) has to do with the definition. Most people assume pride means arrogance, but it is much broader. The pride that accompanies a judgemtal spirit is defined as having a preoccupation with personal cravings, preferences, and desires. It represents a falsely elevated view of one's self. This pride is at the root of criticism, a rejecting spirit, invalidation and so forth.<P>Pride's opposite, humility, is not weakness or frailty. Humility is strength under fire. Humility is the lack of self-preoccupation. In humility you are not so concerned with the self's preferences that you can not make room for situations that run counter to them. And while you want a healthy self esteem, you are not shocked with others choose not to esteem you. When you embrace humility, you can find the strength to disconnect from others' judgments. You can:<BR>* Continue to grow even if a misguided person pridefully gives you an F<BR>* You gain nothing by being critical or judgmental of others.<BR>* Grades from others are empty. No muman has the power of God to know who you really are and how you should be judged.<BR>* You are limited in your ability for people to think well of you.<BR>* Contentment comes froma right relationship with God, not the high opinion of others.<P>If your self esteem is anchored in your accomplishments, then the pride you felt in them became your foundation for personal confidence. When you fail, if your self esteem is so based, it will also fail. But if it is based in God's love, contentment can be spiritually based, not performance based.<P>When you caome under judgment, it is easy to withdraw. It is easy to put on false pretenses in an order to minimize judgments. When you try to appease your judges, you risk resenting them. Everyone is a mixture of plus and minuses. We should be in growth mode, responding to difficulties with a fair mind. When you need to apologize or seek forgiveness, do so. Be mature enough to admit when you are wrong and make correction. Remember you are unlikely to be able to act in ways that will make judges stop judting. Don't assume you have to jump through someone's hoops. Love for God and let that be enough. Don't act in an outward way that is inconsistaent with your inward feelings. Be genuine.<P>As you step away from others' judgments and choose not to judge in return, you can be free to make choices based on what you believe rather than on what you think others expect. Only then can your choice to forgive feel unforced. <P>Your task of becoming seperate from judgments is made easier when you allow yourself to be honest regarding your feelings of loss. That's the next chapter.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

FHL<BR>This really is a tough one. The chapter does concentrate more on dealing with others judgements of you<BR>I can relate to that to an extent. we talked about this a long time ago. My H has a tendancy to supervise and I take his criticisms to heart. I never feel that anything I do is good enough. I'm working very hard at accepting what I do for myself.<P>On the other hand, I know that when I state my values and beliefs, my H sees me as the judge. During the most intense part of the affair we had a late night discussion about right and wrong. He told me that I always have to be the judge. This was a defensive move on his part since I was saying something pretty obvious. "A married man sleeping with another woman is wrong" <BR>I need to tone down the way I state my values so that they don't sound judgmental.<BR>And I need to accept that his value system is not necessarily the same as mine. (He missed that class in bible school too).<P>I think humility is the most important concept in this step for me. Maybe the pride gets in the way of going forward since I want him to admit that my values are good and right.<BR>If we have humility we know that the acceptance comes from God and not from others. Then we can move forward?<P>The last part of the chapter addresses genuineness. We should be who we are. Putting on our best behavior in order to avoid judgements will not work. We need to use that humility to accept ourselves and others - good and bad.Being less than perfect is okay.<P>The chapter is summed up once again by telling us to be honest about our feelings of loss. I think that is a message we all need to hear. Our feelings are okay and we have to accept them.<P>

Yes...it is a delicate line between seeing wrong as wrong...and sitting in judgment...and more complicated if the other person has a different set of values.<P>I guess it kind of relates to hate the sin, love the sinner attitude.<P>I heard on a Christian Broadcast recently about releasing to God his right to judge and punish the person who has wronged you (he of course has that right anyway) but asking God to be merciful to that person has God has been to you. I thought that was great...letting go of the human judgment and realizing the times God has been good to you.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Thanks fhl!! We were waiting for this...and think that it ties in nicely with learning delicate detachment. <BR>'When you embrace humility, you can find the strength to disconnect from others' judgments.' That is the lesson I need to work on! Not so much at home, but in other areas. <BR>I am not so sure about point one. Sure we could hold some in contempt, but often I believe that I judge then file them away. Not so much with loved ones, but with others in general. Rather than contempt I take on a 'why bother' attitude, especially if theyare closed minded sorts. <BR>I think that some of the issues my h and i face date back over 20 yrs. He was very much aware that I had a sex life before he appeared on the scene-there were no secrets. This never appeared to be an issue in our marriage. After discovery he states that he felt I would be more understanding of his sexual addiction problem since I had what some might consider a lot of partners. I believe he did have an incorrect judgemental attitude about this-but it was buried deep inside and never shared with me. If he had shared it, perhaps we could have worked thru his feelings and helped him earlier on. Sometimes our judgements give us personal license to behave in otherwise unacceptable ways?<BR>

AHA another vicious circle!<BR>The more he tries to justify his behavior, the more I try to get through to him that it is not acceptable to me. Then I look judgemental even if I am just trying to defend my values.<BR>so once again it is my responsibility to tone it down and accept. Then he won't feel the need to defend and we might meet in the middle.<BR>More points for me FHL? <BR>This is why I nominated you for the leader and me for the learner!!!!

cl<BR>Very good points!<BR>The other day we were talking about selective memories and this kind of relates.<BR>If judgements were made long ago and actions were based on themwithout communication it leads to problems.<BR>I had no idea that my H was so hurt by certain things in the past. He made judgements about what happened and didn't discuss with me. This lead to a feeling of inadequacy on his part which sent him elsewhere looking to find that feeling of adequacy.

hi ws, one way that you can communicate your values without sounding judgemental is to be sure h hears the "I" at the beginning of the statement. Make sure he understand that these are your feelings and not necessarily what you expect form others. <BR>It is just one of those communication tools that works very well for h and i. I can share my feelings without sounding like I am putting down his friends or family, and without sounding like I am being judgemental.

The famous justifications....and then the defense mode we go into to try to get them to see that these are hogwash! Easily turns into a lot of judgements from all sides. That is the time when I 'agree to disagree', and sometimes leave it at that. I hear what he is saying, and I do not understand it, but that is okay. Where we then need to concentrate is on accepting that with humility.

cl<BR>Honestly I think it would be better if I just SHUT UP for a while.<BR>Thank you for reminding me of the "I" thing. Maybe I could make that my goal for the week.

Wow, this is really great.<P>Okay, with some people I tell myself - and others (in a hostile way - need to practice delicate detachment - AGAIN) - okay, I tell them with a tongue in my cheek:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"I feel sorry for them..They think that their opinion counts!!!!"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So, for SOME people, I can do this. But where I have a hard time are the key people, this is the work cut out for me.<P>Like my dad, my husband, my kids. And I've experienced this with a former boss, as well. So, I have a lot to do, a piece of work on myself!!!<P>Now, if I look at this from my husband's standpoint, and realizing that his values do not mirror mine, and his family's constant judgemental attitude - and how he suffers from my mis-communication as I tend to state my values and boundaries in a judgemental tone - Wow.... I can see where I can make a major change and where a major impact can be seen.<P>It is a part of a blame game, isn't it? If we are careful not to put blame when we state our values and boundaries - maybe this is better?<BR>

cl...if we see others as flawed and are judgmental, then that judgmental attitude may invite feelings superiority. Comparing yourself to others flaws and feeling superior may then give you a license to do as you wish and have a justification for it.<P>Although this sounds superior...I would not be as likely to do this in my own life because I have a very strong set of internal guidelines, based on my values which in my case is based on the faith which was so entwined in my upbringing, I do not base what is ok to get away with by what I see around me, but what I believe to be right, regardless of what others do. However, not everybody operates that way and I think I always assumed they have. Especially my H who was raised the same way and has the same values, but does not seem to have the same inner constraints.<P>I am more likely to dismiss people, not loved ones, but those like you who I do not deem likely to change. A few people I see as plain evil and I'm going have to evaluate that.<P>WS...going to have to think more. It is OK to have values and stick to them. Maybe you have to discuss values and agree or agree to disagree, but determine what standards you both want to live by then how to be accountable without making the other the enforser or the judge. Hmmm...more thought.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

TNT<BR>I'm glad this is making sense to you!<BR>i think maybe we have a few of the same problems in how we communicate these things. Maybe those old facial expressions too?<P>FHL<BR>I will never lose my values and will always stand up for them. It's just that sometimes I think they are far too strong.<BR>I am learning to let the smaller things go. Let my H know that I respect his right to his opinion.<BR>For example my H is very prejudiced in some ways. It used to really get to me. Now the kids and I chuckle a little about his closed mind and accept that is part of who H is. <BR>My son had an assignment once to write an essay on why multiculturalism is wrong. the idea was to write an essay which represented a side that you didn't agree with. To see if he could present the other side. We just joked a little that maybe Dad should help him with that one. No judgements. But once again it took the wind out of his sails and H didn't get into a great debate. I wasn't biting. He has his views, I have mine.

Examples how things have escalated because I did not approach values and boundaries in an appropriate way:<P>H's dad's best friend left wife for OW and remarried. H said it was good that the guy found happiness. I said "how can you say that? Don't you think he feels guilty? How about the kids that are grown now, how do you think it makes them feel? How can you in your right mind say that this was good? Dont even talk to me about that guy again. This pisses me off."<P>About smoking marijuana:<BR>Well, if my diabetic daughter smokes marijuana, I don't like drugs - but think it is better for her to smoke marijuana than to get drunk.<BR>My response:<BR>So, a little poop in the brownies are okay? (I shared that story with him.) And what message is that sending to MY son? You think because it is an organic product, it is okay - and the only problem is that it is illegal? Come on. This is ridiculous.<P>Okay - I ADMIT that I have been communicating my boundaries and values in a judgemental tone, and that is a lovebuster.<P>How can I DELICATELY detach, and not do it with hostility.<P>

cl...I think you are right in that communication is the key. Communicate in a way that states your values but is not judgmental or defensive. Agree to disagree sometimes. Harder on vital issues.<P>Also...love your spouse as a equal child of God and seperate the behavior from the value of a person. Then when corrections are made do not hold a mistake against their value.<P>OK...maybe there's my soft spot. It is so hard to restore my H to a man of integrity in my mind because of the old betrayal and the old lies. I need to seperate the plain old hurt of it all and allow myself to work through that...and truly forgive by not holding a past wrong that he has done all he can to correct against his personal worth.<P>Maybe although I have done a pretty good job at forgiving him and recovering...I haven't done a good job of letting go of the judgment...therefore forgiveness is not complete.<P>Ok..so 11 out of 12 steps aren't enough? Gee..I hate having to hold my own feet to the fire.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Why can't I see my husband as an equal. Why do I consider myself the morality police in my home. Is it because his values and mine are so different - and his superior attitude is attacking my inner being? <P>Why do I continue to make disrespectful judgements, and not let people learn for themselves? Why do I worry so much about how other people's values (H, H family) - influencing my life? <P>Am I going to be frustrated all of my life with this guy? I know the relief I felt the last time I got divorced. I didn't have to compromise my values. <P>Faith, how would you feel, if your husband totally thought your value system was hogwash. Would you take it personally? <P>

Trustntruth...don't get your panties in a knot.<P>Yes you should see your H as an equal because in our Christian faith, God sees each human as of equal worth and he equally loves us all.<P>You may condider yourself the morality police because you have high standards you do want personally violated and you feel it is your responsibility as a mother to teach your son. Let your light so shine among men that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in Heaven.<P>However, you are right in it is not your job or under your control the actions that others take which are often in violation of your values. That's were I believe appropriate bounderies come in.<P>You may have to let go of the idea you can control or even win over another person, but that doesn't mean they can control you by their actions, either.<P>You can work on eliminating disrespectful judgements by establishing healthy bounderies.<P>Wow...that sure sounds a whole lot easier than it is, doesn't it. <P>Maybe we should all forget this forgiveness thing and wallow in bitterness. That may be easier. You know I'm kidding...<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

I think I need to revisit steps 1 through 5!!!! <BR>Thanks!<BR>

Are we trying too hard to digest some of this? To really learn from ALL of it? Tnt, you really know a lot of this, you are just seeing it thru new eyes?

to the top for the newer members. <BR>I feel this is a major issue that many need to work thru regardless of betrayed/betrayer status. <BR>

Any more discussion? I'll do the grief chapter within the next few days.<P>That's one of my favorites.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13