not a loser,

I feel for you, it appears that you have a very smart, aggressive, and manipulative WW................just like mine.

We both need luck and a lot of prayers!

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Cymanca ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by FrederickGirl:
<strong> Melody--The affair is OVER! Just because she checks profile or away messages does not mean she is continuing the affair. She cut all contact with OM . Its very inmature of his part to be checking constantly on her. He is not giving her any breathing room. There is nothing ilicit about checking a profile or an away message!!! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not know your situation, but your assertion above sounds like one who has no understanding of the totality of an affair. From everything Not A Loser states, his WW is still enthralled with the affair and the OM; her actions and her words display this. Simply because a WS stops an affair means little in terms of reconciliation and recovery. I think some WS do this because of a sense of guilt, but mostly self-preservation, after discovery of the affair by BS. During this time, they don't recover from the affair, become depressed, withdraw, and then resume the affair and claim that they "tried".

Not A Loser actually needs to do more, probably a Plan B, if she refuses to discuss the issue and discontinue searching out details of the OM. It is almost self-evident that his WW will re-start contact in the future.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by I'm-not-a-Loser:
[QB]
Cy:

She is not a bad woman, but at this stage she does not seem to have the will power to stop. This is strange as she was able to stop the affair on D-day even though I was begging her to leave the house.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What does being a "bad" person have to do with an affair? I doubt that many of our WS' are criminals or complete moral degenerates, but this does not deter from the fact that they had affairs.

Your wife stopped the affair for self-preservation. From my readings and personal experience, this is not all that uncommon, but it is NOT the end of the "affair"; it is merely a stage. Discovery of the affair threatens the fantasy and introduces consequences to the equation, i.e. your leaving her, you pushing her out of house and home, exposure to family and friends, etc. I think that without professional assistance in this time, this phase simply allows them to ponder the pro's and con's of divorce and rekindling of the affair. And the pro's will always outweigh the con's, since an affair is more fantasy than reality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am well aware that many here consider any contact an EA.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is because it is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My wife has read the board and she knows this quite well. Nevertheless it continues. What can I do? Divorce her because she checks OM's away message daily? That may be overkill!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Have you gone to Plan B? If not, then you are skipping over a very important tool in your arsenal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As of now she seems dedicated to the marriage. Do you honestly think I should end the marriage? That seems a bit much after all that she has done. I have asked her politely a zillion times and it is clear she does not care about my feelings. She feels she is hurting no one by this just as she thought the affair was not damaging to the marriage. Is this fog????????? This late in the game?????

I will admit that her actions do nothing to ameliorate my anger and sadness. We bounce up and down constantly and she always blames me. Sure, there are times when I may act inappropriately because of my own anger, but at this stage of the game we could be far ahead if she stopped checking on OM.

But-------- it is hell! Every-time we have an argument and lately it is all about this obsession and her refusal to admit OM is a person with little integrity. It hurts to the core to know that she has admiration for the character of OM. It hurts more than the lust which at least I know is nothing more than an instinct. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nine months is not that late, sorry to inform you. You are still in the early stages and your wife is far from recommiting to your marriage; take this from experience. I am very sorry to tell you that your wife's words and actions do not bode well for recovery.

I’m-not-a-loser,

In some ways, your W’s behavior reminded me of myself when I was a few months into withdrawal and NC from XOM... During my contact with XOM, I saved certain e-mails and songs from him on my hard drive and after the inappropriate friendship ended, I kept reading and listening to those messages/songs over and over during quite times at work... I was literally obsessed with XOM. I didn’t tell my H about it at the time. I was committed to my H and NC and I knew my behavior was wrong, but I struggled to stop and I experienced the thinking of OM and reading/listening to e-mails/songs as sort of self-medicating at the time.

An A does affect the brain chemistry of a WS/FWS. It is a feedback system where some behavior causes good feelings (chemicals) to be released and gradually you become dependent on those feelings. So thinking of the OP (or re-reading messages etc.) is sort of self-medicating when the FWS feels a little down. It can take weeks to months for this to pass and that’s why NC is so hard because some of the residual feelings and response linger for a long time. With time, the "feelings" attached to remembering the OP will fade.

At the time, while I was re-reading and re-listening those songs/e-mails, I also struggled with undiagnosed depression and OCD (Obsessive-Compulsive-Disorder). After I went back to my counselor and received medication, my depression and obsessive bahavior got better and after short while I decided to delete all those songs/e-mails from my computer. IMO this is when my ‘real recovery’ started - after I received medication; was able to take full control of my obsession and corrected my destructive behavior.

I’m telling you all this because from my own experience, I just think there is a possibility that your W might suffer from depression and/or OCD and probably needs professional help to get over this and OM.

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 03:15 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Unfortunately, there are limits to how much you can do without your WW's desire to improve your M further. Self-improvement is always a worthwhile thing, I think, but may not be enough to hold certain relationships together.

We seem to play everything by ear and cannot follow strict guidelines. I have asked my wife for things such as radical honesty and POJA, but she insists everything is on course and brushes me off. Once again she stated that she ended the affair on d-day and I should be quite happy by now.

...but have you made clear to her that you perceive the constant checking of OM's online status as continued contact, and violation of NC?

Yes--- I have said this to her many times. Wife thinks I just want to nag her; she claims she checks OM out of curiosity and told me she does not have withdrawal at all. She also stated that I am a fool for not trusting her and that my lack of trust will be the reason why our marriage may not work. She wants me to trust her and she feels she can handle OM on her own and that her curiosity will not get the best of her. However, I worry because the affair probably started out of curiosity.


One thing to be sure of-you are absolutely entitled to your feelings. In a similar situation, I was much less tolerant

It is a very humbling experience to have to tolerate this much humiliation. Before d-day I was 100% sure I would never put up with adultery and here I am pleading with my wife not to check on OM. It certainly puts me in a weak position! On d-day I wanted a divorce very badly and even though I changed my mind I debated divorce versus reconciliation on a daily basis for several more weeks. It was pure hell and I was only able to obtain peace when I got the divorce thoughts out of my mind. The ambivalence was killing me; I certainly don’t want to be ambivalent again about my marriage.


She has, unfortunately, used up all of the understanding I am prepared to give in this.
In closing, you have chosen to allow her another chance. I applaud that decision, and admire your strength of character in making it. Be aware, though, that you are perfectly within your rights to set whatever conditions upon allowing her to stay

I think my wife is pushing the envelope to see how much she can get away with. It is a difficult situation, as I cannot see divorcing her because of this. My boundary was that I would divorce if I can prove she is talking to OM once again. Wife is very forceful and states this is not contact!


not a loser,
I feel for you, it appears that you have a very smart, aggressive, and manipulative WW................just like mine.
We both need luck and a lot of prayers!

[ February 28, 2005, 12:23 AM: Message edited by: Cymanca ]


Cy:

I would not describe my wife that way. She is a magnificent wife, however, she is very stubborn and does not like to be told what to do.

I do not know your situation, but your assertion above sounds like one who has no understanding of the totality of an affair.

I often wonder about this. The affair was such a huge fantasy that it may very well seem like a dream to her. It is possible she remembers the details within a cloud or fog and has not yet assimilated the concept of how destructive her behavior was to the marriage and more importantly to herself. If this affair was public--------- if the children knew this she could suffer a great deal and would be exposed to rejection by her grown son and daughters for many years to come. If she had to leave the marriage to have a life with OM she could end up in a very precarious situation. I am sure it would be fun at the beginning, but once the SF became mundane she would find herself in a big black hole. I wonder if she truly sees the magnitude of her actions.

From everything Not A Loser states, his WW is still enthralled with the affair and the OM; her actions and her words display this. Simply because a WS stops an affair means little in terms of reconciliation and recovery. I think some WS do this because of a sense of guilt, but mostly self-preservation, after discovery of the affair by BS. During this time, they don't recover from the affair, become depressed, withdraw, and then resume the affair and claim that they "tried".

I have discussed this with my wife many times. She claims to be different and that she will not re-start the affair. However, I suspect she is still enthralled with OM and does not like to hear any negative remarks regarding the character and integrity of OM.


Not A Loser actually needs to do more, probably a Plan B

I thought about this. But, how do you ask someone to leave the house if they do not want to leave?


Your wife stopped the affair for self-preservation. From my readings and personal experience, this is not all that uncommon, but it is NOT the end of the "affair"; it is merely a stage.

This is very scary stuff, I agree!

Discovery of the affair threatens the fantasy and introduces consequences to the equation, i.e. your leaving her, you pushing her out of house and home, exposure to family and friends, etc. I think that without professional assistance in this time, this phase simply allows them to ponder the pro's and con's of divorce and rekindling of the affair. And the pro's will always outweigh the con's, since an affair is more fantasy than reality.

I want to believe that my wife is not a heartless person. I believe she is a good soul and I cannot fathom she would have the audacity to re-start the affair. So in a sense I have some trust in her.


I’m-not-a-loser,
In some ways, your W’s behavior reminded me of myself when I was a few months into withdrawal and NC from XOM... During my contact with XOM, I saved certain e-mails and songs from him on my hard drive and after the inappropriate friendship ended, I kept reading and listening to those messages/songs over and over during quite times at work... I was literally obsessed with XOM. I didn’t tell my H about it at the time. I was committed to my H and NC and I knew my behavior was wrong, but I struggled to stop and I experienced the thinking of OM and reading/listening to e-mails/songs as sort of self-medicating at the time.

Suzet:

Would you be willing to drop my wife an email?

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: I'm-not-a-Loser ]</small>

Everyone is kind of missing the point--this is "Marriage 101", not "Affairs 523".

W does something that causes H emotional pain. H's pain is rational and normal. H tells her and asks her to stop. W refuses.

So, W's actions are violating a basic, simple rule of being married (or being in a family or having friends): You care about someone else, therefore you try to avoid causing the other person pain, and, if they are in pain, you try to help them.

W doesn't want to honor the basic, simple rules of loving and being loved that we learned in grade school.

Micro said,"I think that without professional assistance in this time, this phase simply allows them to ponder the pro's and con's of divorce and rekindling of the affair. And the pro's will always outweigh the con's, since an affair is more fantasy than reality."

This is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. You and she have to go to MC as soon as possible.
Micro said, "

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: Jimmy Mac ]</small>

Not_a-loser---
It seems to me that your "efforts" to stay married are really not too sincere, and you are just looking for reasons to fight with you wife.
If she knew you were checking her online activities and still did it, her reasons are obviously not that she is still in love or infatuated with OM. YOu also check OMs messages, why do you do it? Could it be curiosity, simple curiosity? Or there is always a hidden intent in every action? You are just looking for reasons to maybe leave her or expose her to her children.

FrederickGirl,

I’ve read some of your other posts too and you seem very hostile & unsympathetic towards BS’s. Why is that? Why don’t you rather share your story and seek help for your own situation? Your posts to BS’s here is not helpful at all…

It’s clear that you don’t have any understanding or empathy for the pain of a BS/FBS. Please share your story so that we can try to help you. (PS: I also posted you a note on another thread).

Suzet

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 09:13 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

I diddo the last post. I am left with a bad taste in my mouth after reading those posts. I have seen more then one of them today..
Is something bothering YOU that you would like to share?

Danielle

FrederickGirl - I've gone back and read every post you have made since joining back in Oct, all 16 of them.

IF you want to be taken seriously, don't you think it's time you told us all your story, how infidelity has touched your life, WHY you are even on this site?

So far you have spouted a few opinions, such as your "I'll give it eight months to see if it's real" statement on one of the threads. Not sure what made you the "expert," or the experience you have on which to make your suggestions and advice.

So you could help your own cause quite a bit by filling us all in on your own situation and what brought you here to Marriage Builders.

OR not. The choice is always up to the individual.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It seems to me that your "efforts" to stay married are really not too sincere, and you are just looking for reasons to fight with you wife.
If she knew you were checking her online activities and still did it, her reasons are obviously not that she is still in love or infatuated with OM. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">


How dare you say I am not sincere? I am with my wife after all of the damage. I have never made plans to leave or seen a lawyer. I am very sincere and have a track record in the marriage that proves my sincerity and reliability. It is not so much what I say, but what I have done in the past. I am firmly committed to stay married and I only had doubts the 1st few weeks after d-day. I certainly don’t want to go that path again as it is very painful.

The last thing I want to do is fight with my wife. Every time I have a fight I end up more sad and depressed. It is a no win situation for me to fight my wife. I simply want peace and no more hurt. I DON’T WANT TO FEEL ANY MORE PAIN!

So----- she checks OM constantly because she knows I am monitoring her?? If I say nothing regarding how bad I feel she will stop checking on the OM. Sorry, but that does not make sense to me and I am not going to make the same mistake I made before. In the past I trusted my WIFE BLINDLY and never questioned her. Then my wife told me that it was foolish to trust anyone blindly and that I made a critical mistake by being so naïve. I AM NOT GOING TO MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN!

As to whether she is still in love with OM:


No, I don’t think she is in love with OM. Only a foolish woman would love OM in light of his character and track record. However, I suspect my wife checks OM’s away message because she still longs for OM and that delays the healing our marriage. If she still misses OM there is nothing I can do. However, she should not be reading OM’s messages all day long. That prolongs the withdrawal.

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: I'm-not-a-Loser ]</small>

INAL,

I too went back and read all the posts of FrederickGirl.

This person does not have anything meaningful to say so don't let this one get you upset."Her" posts have that distasteful quality about them that suggests questionable motives for being here.

If I were you I would ignore her.Just my opinion.

O

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

not a loser,

Good morning . Try not to pay attention to posts that seem completely out of the spectrum of advice and or suggestions that you will receive on MB forums. Unfortunately we see a lot of very hurt and hurting people here and while everyone is welcome, sometimes their posts need to be taken with a huge modicom of salt.

From a FWW perspective, you have a small but very brave group that will allow you to see and hear from the invaluable perspective of the WS. Read, absorb, practice the principles espoused here. You are going through the most stressful occurence short of death of a family member that any human can go experience. While your actions may be misinterpreted by your WW at this time, your courage and devotion to the image of your wife (not your WW) will never be questioned in retrospect.

Best of luck and as always my prayers go with you

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by I'm-not-a-Loser:

How dare you say I am not sincere? I am with my wife after all of the damage. I have never made plans to leave or seen a lawyer. I am very sincere and have a track record in the marriage that proves my sincerity and reliability. It is not so much what I say, but what I have done in the past. I am firmly committed to stay married and I only had doubts the 1st few weeks after d-day. I certainly don’t want to go that path again as it is very painful.[/b]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Discount the remarks by FredericksGirl, they have little value. I have little doubt that you are sincere; most understand this from personal experience.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The last thing I want to do is fight with my wife. Every time I have a fight I end up more sad and depressed. It is a no win situation for me to fight my wife. I simply want peace and no more hurt. I DON’T WANT TO FEEL ANY MORE PAIN!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perfectly reasonable, but I can tell you from experience, affairs don't end just with words and promises. Flames can be put out with a little water, but if not properly extinguished, will smolder until it ignites again. You need to either separate, to allow her time to ponder the reality of the situation, or somehow get her to agree to counseling. Her patterns are indicative of one who is fighting themself; she is trying to fight her feelings alone and the more withdrawn she becomes the greater the chance she will choose the pleasure of the affair over the daily drudgery of her life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So----- she checks OM constantly because she knows I am monitoring her?? If I say nothing regarding how bad I feel she will stop checking on the OM. Sorry, but that does not make sense to me and I am not going to make the same mistake I made before. In the past I trusted my WIFE BLINDLY and never questioned her. Then my wife told me that it was foolish to trust anyone blindly and that I made a critical mistake by being so naïve. I AM NOT GOING TO MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She may truly believe that she is not doing anything wrong, but this means nothing. Many WS' don't believe that the whole affair is wrong.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As to whether she is still in love with OM:

No, I don’t think she is in love with OM. Only a foolish woman would love OM in light of his character and track record. However, I suspect my wife checks OM’s away message because she still longs for OM and that delays the healing our marriage. If she still misses OM there is nothing I can do. However, she should not be reading OM’s messages all day long. That prolongs the withdrawal. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course she still longs for him, probably even loves him. You love your wife even after she betrayed you, why would she not love a person whom she believed was sent from Heaven especially for her?? The rationalizations and beliefs created to initiate and perpetuate affairs are powerful, they don't just go away overnight, nor in 9 months.

Please consider doing something stronger than your present course of action.

FrederickGirl,

Marriage Builders is a SUPPORT site!!

You are going through the most stressful occurence short of death of a family member that any human can go experience. While your actions may be misinterpreted by your WW at this time, your courage and devotion to the image of your wife (not your WW) will never be questioned in retrospect.

I sincerely hope that one day she can say that she was blinded to my attention and that in retrospect I always appreciated her to a very high degree.

I have been telling her about all the occasions where I would spend a long time telling others (even strangers) about what a great wife she was.

During my marriage with her I always insisted on buying her something if we walked into a jewelry store.

I would often tell my mother in law that her daughter was a great lover, ect.

If I had more than two glasses of wine in a restaurant I was all over my wife , flirting, ect.

I saw her as the most important person in the family and the one that had the ultimate say in every move we made---- my kids can attest to that.

I had an admiration that can only be compared to the way I admired my father. She was a problem solver and I felt very comfortable knowing she was behind me. She was caring reliable, ect.

Then on d-day I find out this person has died and now I have to deal with a woman that cannot be trusted. I disagree with you. Infidelity is also like mourning the death of someone you loved very deeply.

Her opening line to OM was that I did not value her. That is very painful Cymanca and speaks to the common practice of WW telling prospective OM I am open for an affair.

I used to tell my wife she was the center of my universe. Then one day my wife mentioned this statement to OM and he told her that it was too much pressure from my part to say such a thing. Of course, several months later he was saying the same to her and it was not taken as “too much pressure”.


So now she believes I am simply trying to punish her or make her uncomfortable with no real motive to do so. Wow!

INAL,

You don't have to justify at all your actions in your marriage.Yours is similar to mine in that,everyone who knew me and my WH thought we had the "perfect" marriage.We were so in love with each other(funny how now he doesn't see that!) and we had such a great family.Everyone was so shocked when they found out about my WH's adultery because they all said how much he admired and talked about me as his wife,what a great wife and mother I was.I used to also say how proud I was of my WH,what a great Dad he was to our children,how great he was at his career and all the "famous" people he knew,etc.I always used to call him my "handsome husband".He was the love of my life.I wanted to grow old with him.

After all that and much more,he tells me that he just did not feel loved(which is why he cheated)?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I still do not understand that and I never will because we never got a chance to explore that fully in a Recovery with couseling more than a couple weeks.

Your WW is still messed up you know.So is my WH.I don't know if some of these WS's ever truly figure things out.Maybe they are just new people with a whole new set of ideals and values that we do not subscribe to.I know that I feel like my actual H died and now I am dealing with some stranger.Mourning,like was mentioned before.

I know that you are having a hard time.I wish I had an answer to help you but I don't.All I can do is share in what you are feeling.I am not in Recovery.

O

INAL,
You have my understanding and my empathy. My FWW has had a huge struggle letting go of the conversations she had with OM. She claims she has nobody else like him to talk to about some things. So, she continues to speak with him on phone. I find this to be very upsetting and am searching for a way to help her seek an end to this continued contact. She resists MC that we have seen before and claims that the relationship is more like good friends now. I want to trust her, but am wary of it because the A began as a friendship and slowly built into way more. I am scared it could happen all over again. You see, I love my W very much and am trying hard to nurture our marriage.
The notion that a BS mourns as if someone has been taken from them is real. I have felt this too. However, time and effort can overcome this feeling. Prayer helps also. I just wanted to tell you that you're not the only one in this situation. We are at the right place to get halp.
Suzet, what you said about how you were struggling with NC makes me wish my W would read your post here. Maybe coming from one who has been there she would benefit from your advice.
This thread has struck a nerve with me. Thank you, INAF, Melody and Suzet. rdl

Just a thought and not necessarily fact.
Being a Moderator myself on another non-related site one observation here makes me curious.
Thread starter and thread agitator has same sign-up date.
Perhaps someone in admin may need to explore sign-up info and IP addresses further.

SM

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Was Sad Tiger ]</small>