I think it is simple, really. What happened to me and my marriage? I think I DO have the answer. I have actually said it on the board many times in my own attempts to help my MB family.

On my own thread, I posted how the demons were after me today. But I am OK. My faith is stronger now than it has ever been, even in light of the worldly failings around me. My faith is important to me, the most important thing. And I am a man of science. It is an odd coupling I have – science and faith. And it is easier to resolve than you might think at first glance. I do BELIEVE. What’s more, I KNOW my faith to be true. I know my God is alive and smiling down upon me. And the demons aren’t going to win. They may gain ground, but it will be at great cost to THEM, not me.

Let’s talk about your kids. For those fortunate enough to have them. Wisdom pills. That’s what I have taken to call them. Want wisdom fast? Have a kid and PAY ATTENTION.

So let’s talk about them. Why do you love them? Because they are your kids? Is that enough of a reason? No. If one was taken from you at birth, and raised in a far off land, you would not love that child like the ones you did raise. No time invested.

Why do you love them? Because you and your spouse gave birth to them? They are your progeny carrying your DNA? No. I know many couples who adopt kids, and some well beyond the infant age and those parents love those kids like there own. I also know people (far too many reported here) who have biological kids and don’t seem concerned for them at all. At least for a time. There can’t be some mystic, biological link.

Why do you love them? Because they are reflections of you? Sure, mine carry SOME of my own favorite traits. But they got some bad ones, too. I don’t hate them for the bad ones, so how can I love them for the good ones?

Why do you love them? Because you chose to bring them in this world and have a responsibility to them? No. Most of us attempt to be good parents because of that reason, but it is not why we love them. If it were, how would one explain all the bad parents who have kids then neglect them?

Why do you love them? Easy. Because you SERVE them. It is as simple as the pride in a job well done. When they are infants, the cuteness and cuddliness appeals to the emotions. Awwww! How cute! You can’t barely help it. My oldest is a young teen. He is being ravaged by growth spurts. One would THINK he would grow proportionately. I mean like a photograph of the kid at 8 yrs old getting progressively larger on a Xerox machine.

Oh no. He grows this way, then that way, like all his body parts are in some madcap race to be the first to reach adult-hood, and none of them are talking to one another and keeping pace. He is gawky and out of proportion and self-conscious and fumbly and bumbly. Just like we all were when we were teens. Would not call this stage of his life “CUTE”. I could probably sell a time-lapse film to Hollywood for some alien mutation special effect.

But I love him. He looks great to me. I respect him for his struggles. And I love him. Not because of what he contributes to the family. Not because of the state of his heart. Not because he is intelligent. Not because he is a most excellent big brother to my other two. Those are all things I love ABOUT him.

No. I love him because I have SERVED him for 13 years. I have put his needs ahead of mine. I have devoted time and energy to him NOT EXPECTING ANYTHING IN RETURN. I have served him and my reward is he is becoming a fine young man and that is way more than I could have asked for in return.

That is where LOVE comes from. Not the “in love” feeling, but the LOVE. It comes from the servant’s heart.

I am the FS. Many times the question comes on the board how we can “take it.” And the answers are always there – family is too important, time invested in the marriage, not ready to quit. That is only the “why” we do it, but how do we STAY in love with our BETRAYERS?!!? Ever notice how Plan A seems to ENHANCE the feelings of the FS for the WS, even though it is INTENDED to be the other way around? Plan A is essentially a trick played on the WS. “Look at me, I’m better than the OP.” A trick with good intentions, but a trick nonetheless. I know in my Plan A, my love for RAP grew and grew. It never subsided, in truth, during the marriage.

Why? The same reason I love my kids. I had a servant’s heart for her. Most emphatically let me state I really messed some things up. I am guilty of many sins in the marriage, most arising from when I would be selfish. But in general, in the bigger picture, I had a servant’s heart for her and JOYFULLY put her needs ahead of my own. Most times. Everyone stumbles. But in general, that is where my heart has been. Serving her and serving my kids.

And she can’t love me back. Why? Simple really. She doesn’t. She chooses not to. She does not SERVE me with JOY expecting NOTHING. Those efforts go to her OMs. It is that selfless EFFORT, for that is what it truly is, that was lacking in her toward me. Is she capable? Yes. She loves her sons. Always was a good mom. She SERVED them. Just not her husband or her marriage. THAT is how those of us who have been betrayed can stay the course. We expend the effort to till the soil and GROW our love. It is just nicer when your partner does the same.

It is the EFFORT expended that is the soil in which real, meaningful love is tilled. All the forgiveness, and all that other stuff, is just pulling weeds in the garden.

But enriching the soil for the love to grow?

That only comes with sweat and a hoe.

Comments?

NCWalker

PS – Excellent link to what a Servant’s Heart is …
http://www.learnthebible.org/humility_in_servant's_heart.htm

Wow, I am going to print this out for my WH. NCW, my H has trouble loving our disabled S and now I see why. I am the one who serves him. I am the one that sacrifices out love for my DS, my H does not. Did I cheat him out of that by taking over all those tasks or did my H cop out of it? Hard to say. Thanks, this was beautiful. I am sorry that RAP has chosen to miss out on a beautiful man like you.

NCW,
I was sorry to hear of the latest struggle for you and RAP. I have followed your story for some time. I have always gained from your posts. I think my FWW is one of those WW mentioned in other post, about getting 2x4ed by some last summer. She still struggles with issues of withdrawal from OM. I try to use what I read here to nurture our marriage. You have been an inspiration to many. Best wishes, rdl.

NCW, like I told you before, you're right on here.

Once I told my WW, "I don't love you because you're wonderful and irresistible. I love you because I choose to. I could stop tomorrow if I wanted. But I'm not going to."

She looked at me like it was all pops and buzzes coming out of my mouth.

GC

(edited for spelling)

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 02:42 PM: Message edited by: graycloud ]</small>

WOW........

Your Post was awesome.......I wish my fww could read it or I at least hope she finds it and reads it..

I found that I love my kids for many reason's and the one that comes to mind the most is " They make me stop and look around, they find joy in the small things we take for granted.

My daughter is always walking around the house singing and after about two weks I thought I was going to go insane, but out of the blue my daughter started laughing at me the other day and I asked her what was so funny, She said " Your singing " I of course told her NO...I'm attempting to sing and that the head sounds better then I do.

I find that I can sit with my kids and watch about anything and not be able to tell you what it is were watching, I am to busy watching them laugh, Smile, Cry, and support each other.

Children are the best...I wrote a poem about my children and just want to share it with all of you..


--------------------------------------------------

Children
Michael Schluter 10/28/04

Children of love,
Know no bounds of love.

They bring us joy, they bring us tears
How we love them.

My children are free,
Like doves across the sun.

I watch them grow,
Like leaves across autumn.
I gather them up,
only to watch them go loose in the wind.

I shed tears of joy over this love,
I shed tears of happiness over them,

These are my children, I do say.

How I love these children,
For they are mine

To be fair I've only just skimmed your post. I have to go out. It's morning in Hong Kong and I have a lot to get on with.

I really like your posts and yesterday I wanted to start a new thread saluting BSs on MB (you were one of the people I was thinking of in a sea of BS who warrent a mention). Geez we are a kool lot. So many bright, witty, perceptive, long suffering people - I feel honoured to be counted with the BS on MB coz to me, they are way more interesting than the WSs. Though to be fair, the reformed WSs can be very insightful at times.

Anyhoo - what drew me to your post was your comment that as a man of science you serve both God and Science. I have always been perplexed by people who have excellent minds with a strong science background who believe in God. You even went so far as to say you know there is a God. Wow! I don't know there isn't a God, but I have a strong suspicion that there isn't a God, at least a God anything like the one that man thinks exists.

In my previous life I was a devout Jehovah's Witness (took up ten yrs of my life). I think they cured me of religion. The behavior of WSs has confirmed evolution to me - primitive calls of nature/instinct, people acting on chemical reactions developed over the eons to promote the survival of the species. Pretend you have another woman and see how your wife reacts to that? What's that about? Explain that Biblically?

I am stunned to read your wife is still wayward. I will have to re read your theories on why we love our kids. Not sure that I agree with you - or why we love our spouses. I had come to believe that love doesn't really exist - since becoming a BS - but try as I might, love for my FWH seems to be oozing back thru the cracks of my resolve, never to love him again. I keep racing around plastering over the cracks, but the minute I relax, more cracks appear and I am forced to confront a warm fuzzy feeling I have when I am with him.

So much more I'd like to talk with you about - but time is up. Rest assured I generally find your posts most interesting and look forward to reading them. You were the first person to mention how some spouses are more susceptible to preditors on the M. That was a light bulb moment for what happened in my M. Great thought.

an

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On my own thread, I posted how the demons were after me today. But I am OK. My faith is stronger now than it has ever been, even in light of the worldly failings around me. My faith is important to me, the most important thing. And I am a man of science. It is an odd coupling I have – science and faith. And it is easier to resolve than you might think at first glance. I do BELIEVE. What’s more, I KNOW my faith to be true. I know my God is alive and smiling down upon me. And the demons aren’t going to win. They may gain ground, but it will be at great cost to THEM, not me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey NC: I enjoyed quite a chuckle from these words. I am also a man of science. Physics actually which is all about making sense, logic, proof, testing and confirmation. And like you; I am also a man of faith. I believe that "science" actually allows us to have a deeper understanding of faith. Probably because the more we learn - the less we realize we know. So we ultimately allow ourselves the great luxury of accepting that we will never know it all - and that's OK; because faith takes over from there.

I read your entire post with great interest and respect. What you call effort - I call faith. Actually they're one and the same. Your WW lost it; so did mine. Great post - great message! Thanks. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

FR

OK.

I have had two people now comment on the science/faith thing. One dissenting and one affirming opinion.

Without getting into a lot of gobblydygook and science mumbo jumbo, here is how I see the two intertwined.

*** WARNING - THIS IS OPINION ***

First - a cursory knowledge of science and scientific principles in a person USUSALLY kills their faith. They scratch the surface of scientific knowledge, see the scientific method and come to the almost inevitable conclusion that given time, science WILL explain everything. I was at that point in my life at about age 18.

But I study physics, not as part of my job, but for fun. Physics and mathematics. And it was these pursuits that CONVINCED me there is a God. NOT the other way around. Here are two examples:

Chaos Math Whatever happened to a successful artificial heart? Surely with plastics and finite element analysis and computational advancements, we should have been able to synthesize an artificial heart by now. I mean one similar to the God given one we have. Not some huge machine we tug around behind us for the rest of our lives. We haven't. Why? Because blood clots. Yep. If blood stops flowing, it clots. So if you design a heart, essentially a pump, it cannot have ANY parts of the flow path where it slows or stops to the point where the blood clots. If it does, the little clots will get pumped up into the brain and a stroke results. Well, we haven't been able to do that. There is always some dead flow in whatever we can contrive. But what about OUR hearts? How many successful designs are there? In the whole animal kingdom, there are various hearts of various designs and within species, no two hearts are EXACTLY alike. Yet there are remarkably FEW failures due to clotting in our "God given" hearts. How does the heart "know" how to grow in this manner? Actually, it is a simple equation wired into the cells. It is based on imaginary roots and the location of neighboring cells. And it is EXTRAORDINARILY simple.

A little TOO simple to be developed by chance. Random selection (evolution) of something like that? How many THOUSANDS would have to die from "bad heart equations" before the successful ones survived. Now extend that to ALL the internal organs. What are the odds that some ancient primate had the right equation for the heart, stomach, lungs, liver, pancreas, etc. ALL AT THE SAME TIME. THEN found a female who had it too.

Sorry. It is just a little TOO elegant to not be inspired.

Super String Theory This is the development of the Grand Unification Theory. It is the explanation of STUFF at the quantum level and so complex that you cannot use ANYTHING from everyday experience to help comprehend it. It just doesn't compute with what we experience day to day. But you know what? It theorizes (and gets reinforced continually) that EVERYTHING (by this I mean stuff) is made from the same vibrating "strings" of energy. Different characteristics of stuff are just different vibrational patterns, like the notes on a stringed instrument. It accounts for energy (like light and heat) and mass (stuff - even including chocolate and US) as being the SAME THING, just vibrating at a different pattern.

So what "strummed" this "musical instrument" of the universe that resulted in the stable (relatively) world we live in. That happened by CHANCE? And ALL of THIS we know is the result?

It is kind of like putting salt and pepper in the same shaker, mixing it up well, then spilling it out and expecting it to be sorted.

Yeah. The more science I learn, the more I am CONVINCED that the universe was DESIGNED.

Thanks for indulging me on that,

NCWalker

SCIENCE <---- BLAH

Science to me is just a bunch of people trying to make sense out of something they were never meant to understand. It's Gods way of saying...JUST HAVE FAITH and TRUST ME.

" Edited For spelling "

<small>[ March 01, 2005, 08:38 PM: Message edited by: Mschluter ]</small>

NC -

You are my favorite posters. I love all of your posts. I think you have it right about serving. I loved my babies from the first day they were born - a hormonal thing I think.

I love my step-children the same. It was not from giving birth to them, but from caring for them over the years.

I would never be able to choose between any of them. I love them all equally.

OK. Another interesting thought then.

My God, the Christian God, really appreciates FAITH from us. That we have faith in Him. Not love, but FAITH. And also obedience, which is an extension of faith, for if you believe, then you must also believe what he asks us to do.

But why faith? Why more important than love? My *PERSONAL THEORY* is this:

Hey, he is the SUPREME DUDE. Perfect in every way. We are but shadowy reflections of the wonder and perfection that is Him. So if he actually MANIFESTED and appeared before us which would remove the need for faith as we would have proof, I don't think we could HELP but love Him. I mean, he is perfection, right? How could we NOT love that? Being around Him would be like that googly dating feeling all the time.

So what would that say to Him? Not much. It would be like squirrels in the park coming up because you had a sack of peanuts. The can't help it, you got peanuts man.

Faith is the only thing we can "give back" that would have value to a being like that. Belief and devotion just because he says so. With no proof. THAT would have value. If he manifested all the time, it would devalue the only thing we can really FREELY give.

*** AGAIN - MY OPINION and I can't back it up with Scriptures, but it is pretty neat, don't ya think??

NCW

NCWALKER:

This is just my thoughts. So please keep the 2x4's and the Bibles in check..

I also believe in God, BUT...................


" MY THOUGHTS AND FEELINGS, IMHO <------ "


What I don't understand is it seems to me that every person on here finds religion once they find that there spouse or love has cheated. I just don't get it..

My faith in GOD has had it's ups and down's these are my demons thats I live with everyday. I don't always agree with how he does things and I know everyone will pound me for this answer.

Why can't we just except the fact that are spouses screwed up and we hold some blame, Not all blame just some.

What this site needs is a forum area where all you bright people can go and play chess or something.

cn, I re read your original post about loving and serving your spouse. Do you think it's possible that infidelity happens to a spouse who's stopped serving their S (the WS being the one who's stopped serving - and I use the word serving in the context that you framed it in)? What you said really resonated with me (unlike the stuff you added about God - never mind, we're not here to debate religion). H and I served each other strongly for most of the 30 yrs of our M, but in the last few yrs I think it had become inequitable. He was absorbed in his work and I filled in the gaps at home. I did too much, he did too little. Then we were forced to spend a lot of time apart and he was doing nothing for me. I was looking after the house and washing all the cars and mowing the lawns and doing the garden and sorting out the kids and he was earning money. Not enough to to keep love alive if your theory on serving is correct. I still loved him because I was serving him and putting him first by doing all I could to maintain his family and possessions.

Since d-day H serves me like you wouldn't believe. I think he thinks it's the only thing he's got to prove his love for me. He's different from in the past. He was always easy going but now he's proactive in doing anything and everything he can for me. He rushes in to do the awful chores first before I even think of them. And he seems to love me more than ever.

Obviously this can't go on - we will in time have to restore the relationship to something more balanced. But, well, I'm bleeding it for all it's worth. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just kidding! Actually I have a lot of energy and don't mind doing this stuff myself, but I spose I feel there's a debt to be paid and his A has knocked a lot out of me. I am finding myself doing more, but making a note to myself to not over do it. I don't want him to take me for granted again.

Could your theory on 'serving' explain more than the EN's theory about why a S is unfaithful? Just wondering...

an

NC and Anyname,

First NC, I am so sorry that your W has made the decisions she made. I was going to respond to your other thread but just wanted to say how sorry I was to read your announcement.

As for your theory about love, I have thought and posted for many years here when people ask how to regain "love", that giving was the way. In your terminology "serving". If you lot at the evolution of most A's it was more about one person listening to another, "helping" them with their issues, being there for them, ect.

So I tend to agree with your assessment of these things. I really think this is how marriages are maintained with each spouse "serving" the other.

It is why you will hear mean say, "I started the A because I wasn't 'needed' " You will hear women say a comparable thing about their H's. "He works all of the time and has no time for me" Code for "I am not needed."

Anyname, I think your assessment is on target and I am glad to see "feelings" coming back into your marriage. In fact I am more than glad. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> It makes me very happy to hear this.

Since I am a scientist, perhaps I should weigh in on the other topic. Again NC I agree with you. The deeper one gets into science the amazing nature really is, the more you must "believe" that there is something very special at work here.

I personally think that things come in two general classes: things we can understand and predict (science) and things that we are required to BELIEVE. I feel what confuses some people that a lot of "social" laws were mixed in with religious believes and as science learns more the "social" aspects of religions are explained. How children are conceived. What causes disease. What causes drought, or investations. But although one can explain in gruesome detail ALL of the details of conception, one cannot explain what makes life.

The core parts of religion require BELIEF. And the more one studies science, I feel the more distinct the boundaries become. I like to tell people that </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I can conceive of an infinite universe, but I cannot conceive of what it is in. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That inconsistency of thought is where the boundaries lie. One can suspect that the Big Bang theory is right, but it does not explain what causes it or what the universe is IN. It is truely a marvel.

I could go on, but I won't.

Very interesting post NC. As usual if is interesting to think about these things.

God Bless,

JL

Anyname,

*** Warning (not to you Anyname) - this is MY OPINION. If you DON’T LIKE IT, you can always NOT READ IT. I will discuss it, but will not argue it. ***

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do you think it's possible that infidelity happens to a spouse who's stopped serving their S (the WS being the one who's stopped serving - and I use the word serving in the context that you framed it in)?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN, I think it IS the reason.

I need to interject something so you know where I am coming from. Earlier on, you mentioned that you don’t share my faith. That is OK with me. I truly don’t hold that against you at all. But if you want me to “shut off” the faith part of me for a discussion, I can’t do that. Yeah, I can present logical arguments and not quote the Bible, but you need to have the understanding that what I say will have its foundation deeply rooted in the Bible. Actually, in my interpretation of it, because even that changes and grows as I do spiritually.

So if you are OK with that basis, here goes.

Yes, it IS the reason. All this stuff about “follow your heart” we see in the world today is a bunch of cr@pola. Some people DO follow their hearts, and it leads, in many cases to destruction. It FEELS good when we are doing it, but it usually clouds our view. Following your heart alone usually winds up with you saying “Oh Geez, I didn’t realize THAT would happen…” Now I am not saying that your HEART will lead you wrong, just that it CAN if it is your only counselor. And let me make the distinction that when I say HEART, I mean emotions.

Many people say things like “I can’t MAKE myself feel a certain way.” Again, cr@pola. Where you set your HEAD and your SPIRIT, your heart will follow. Don’t believe me? Here are some examples…

What about the people who devote their lives to the accumulation of worldly possessions? Their heads are telling them I must have more things, and they develop a love for those things. Are they all BORN with that in their hearts? Then what about the people who start out that way and realize the futility or dissatisfaction of it?

What about the starving people in 3rd world nations? To those of us in the United States, we are RARELY exposed to the abject poverty in the rest of the world. People from here go on missionary journeys or serve in the military and get exposed to these nations and many develop a heart for the people there. Why? Their HEAD saw it and the “rules” of how a society should be (again, developed in the head) resulted in urgings in their hearts.

What about Adolf Hitler? He was LOVED by the youth of Germany during his rise to power. When it became evident what he was doing, do you think ALL of them still loved him? I would bet money that those that knew that heart can follow head STOPPED loving him when they realized what he was doing. Those that didn’t, well they did not know this lesson and followed their hearts essentially in support of a monster. (They probably all had affairs the next week. J Sorry, just had to throw that in).

I am not talking “mushy, adolescent, crush love.” I am talking real love. And I truly believe that you WILL develop this love for those you serve. You can’t “make” yourself do it in the same sense that you just change a channel on a television. It is a process – it takes nurturing, patience, and effort, even when you don’t “feel” like it.

It takes SERVICE. With a few caveats.

1) The service must be joyful. If you are begrudgingly serving, it will NOT cultivate feelings of love. You must come to the personal realization that you serve your spouse because you WANT to. Because they DESERVE your service simply because they are your spouse. If you are serving to not get yelled at, or so you can go out with the girls, or because you are going to ask for that boat you always wanted when the family can’t really afford it, then you are not serving joyfully. Doing it joyfully is the hard part. It is a CHOICE and it is a hard one. If you cannot do that, you will fail.

2) It must be done with no expectations. Again, this is hard. Our flesh SCREAMS when we don’t get something in return. The attitude of service for the joy of serving takes PRACTICE.

I stopped at the grocery store this morning. There was a woman struggling with her cart. The parking lot was on a hill and she was trying to keep the cart from rolling into the side of her car while unloading the groceries. She was doing a fine job and would have accomplished her task without aid, but it was a struggle. So I stopped and held the cart while she unloaded the groceries. Why? Only because it was kind and I like to be a blessing. Why? Because I LOOK for things like that to do for my fellow man. Why? Because some time ago I made a conscious CHOICE that I was going to live my life that way. I did not IMMEDIATELY change my behavior when I made this decision, I had to PRACTICE it. I have been doing “little blessings” like that for people for years now and it is to the point where I can’t help it anymore. I actually feel bad if I don’t.

Our bodies, our flesh, loves routine. Forget stimulants like nicotine, caffeine, or things like that that only enhance this need. Just consider the mundane.

Don’t you have some quirks that you “just do?” Weird little habits that “don’t feel right” when they are not done? What about your socks? In your sock drawer, do you stack them? Or do you fold over the elastic to keep them together? Or do you roll the pair into the little ball and invert the elastic to keep them in the neat little balls? Or are they clothespinned? Why do you do that? You trained yourself that way.

What if I came in and forced you to do your sock drawer a different way? It would bother you at first, but you would get used to it. You may even EMBRACE it if there was some reward or it served your sense of right and wrong. Like the simple gratitude of a smile for being a “little blessing” to someone unexpectedly. And your HEART your EMOTIONS would follow. “Hey, I LIKE the way NCWalker taught me how to do my socks!”

Ask ANYONE in the military about this. When you join, you are forced to do things their way. No arguments. No room for debate. Do it our way or you will be in pain. Most people in the military pick up quite a few habits from these idiosyncrasies. And never lose them, ESPECIALLY if they are beneficial.

You want to change? The PROCESS is easy, the execution a little more challenging. You just brainwash yourself. Don’t get hung up on the negative connotation of the word. What I mean is you retrain your habits you want to change into habits you want. And it is a process. (Read “Seven Habits of Highly Effective People”, it goes into this in detail).

And guess what, your FEELINGS about your new habits will follow suit. But is really SUCKS heart wise, or feelings wise when you start that journey. Ask ANYONE who has made the journey.

You want to LOVE your spouse, SERVE your spouse. But be very clear on what it means to SERVE. It doesn’t mean to SLAVE.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Could your theory on 'serving' explain more than the EN's theory about why a S is unfaithful? Just wondering...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. They are explaining two different things. I am explaining WHY the love (and darn it, we need a few more words for love) for a spouse grows. Or lost if the service stops. And again, it is my opinion.

The EN meeting stuff, the Rules to a Successful Marriage, essentially this whole site, is a description of what that SERVICE looks like. This site is full of practical, WHAT to do stuff. I am just relaying my take on WHY it works.

And my take is it is right out of the Bible – have a servant’s heart toward your spouse. (See the link in my first post if you want to read about it.)

NCWalker

Mschluter,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is just my thoughts. So please keep the 2x4's and the Bibles in check..

I also believe in God, BUT...................</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If that isn’t the most sugar coated taunt I have ever seen, I don’t know what is. ROFLMAO <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What I don't understand is it seems to me that every person on here finds religion once they find that there spouse or love has cheated. I just don't get it..</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You used the EVERY word here. There are many FS who did not incorporate a religious discovery as part of the process. Consider ol’ 2Long. He doesn’t claim membership in a faith as part of his recovery process. Yet more than many (myself included) his walk of forgiveness is PHENOMENAL. (And we will get to him eventually. Wink for 2Long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) People tend to rediscover their faith when faced with a traumatic event. Nothing wrong with that. Why do you think it is strange? I bet the people who quit smoking when faced with lung cancer or emphysema is much higher percentage wise than those who do it “just because.” Would THAT surprise you too? The affair is a catalyst that leads (at least as far as I have seen) to a path of self-examination and self-discovery for BOTH the FS and the WS. Sometimes that involves faith. I believe Harley’s principles are firmly rooted in the scriptures, the Christian faith, so it is probably attractive to Christians for that reason. Increasing the occurrences of your observations.

I would ask this? Why fret over something that seems to be working for someone?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My faith in GOD has had it's ups and down's these are my demons thats I live with everyday. I don't always agree with how he does things and I know everyone will pound me for this answer.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why would we pound you for that? Most of us have the same feelings about God. All it takes is one drunk driver killing an entire family in an auto accident, yet the drunk survives. But we typically phrase it that we don’t understand why those things happen, not how he does things. I am sure that when I get to heaven, those kinds of things will be answered for me. Or at the very least I will understand them. At the end of the day, will raging at God bring the family back? No. Then how about praying for them and the drunk too, so he doesn’t do it again?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why can't we just except the fact that are spouses screwed up and we hold some blame, Not all blame just some.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We can. In fact, we do. I am not sure, but I doubt there is a recovered marriage on this board where the FS accepted no blame for the condition of the marriage before the affair. I am pretty sure they all have.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What this site needs is a forum area where all you bright people can go and play chess or something.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I’ll take that as a compliment. In the spirit of this thread, how would I be of service if I wasted my time playing chess?

NCWalker

JL,

Thanks for the sentiment.

BTW, JL IS a scientist. I am just a wannabe.

And it truly amazing how deeper knowledge of science just uncovers a delicacy and intricacy beyond random chance.

NCW

NCW,

Coupla questions. You are saying a WS has an affair because they stop serving the BS. That the REASON they had the affair was because they stopped serving.(THis stems from selfishness) Correct? Ok, assuming I got what you are saying, my question is....

WHY DID the WS stop serving the BS?

Also, you stated that you had, in general, a servant's heart throughout your marriage.
Suppose the WS does not SEE that in a BS? Suppose that the WAYS in which you are serving are not the ways that the WS WANTS to be served?

For example, you go to work every day, work hard, make the money, do handyman things, etc....is that what you mean by having a servant's heart?
Or do you mean putting your spouse's NEEDS above your own? Who determines what those needs are?
Maybe I'm getting emotional/spiritual type needs and service confused here.
Jesus did many acts of service to people...but ALL of those acts spoke directly to their hearts as well. Sure, they were practical needs HE was meeting but they were also spiritual in nature. I'm not sure, now that I've said that, what the connection is, between meeting basic physical needs that at the same time meet spiritual needs. Geesh!

Well, you certainly have always done one thing for me....made me think!

Any thoughts, opinions as to my questions?

Thanks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, he is the SUPREME DUDE. Perfect in every way. We are but shadowy reflections of the wonder and perfection that is Him. So if he actually MANIFESTED and appeared before us which would remove the need for faith as we would have proof, I don't think we could HELP but love Him. I mean, he is perfection, right? How could we NOT love that? Being around Him would be like that googly dating feeling all the time.

So what would that say to Him? Not much. It would be like squirrels in the park coming up because you had a sack of peanuts. The can't help it, you got peanuts man.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is it. Yeppers. This is TOTALLY IT!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I love them all equally.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Paugh! BS Believer. While you might not be able to choose between them (God forbid any would ever have to)....there are different reasons for loving each one. Fortunatly as parents we will never be asked to load our love for our kids on scales. To determine that you love them equally is very nearly impossible. I dunno about you, but I much prefer not to love them equally. I mean, Rebekah would not appreciate it as much as Zach if I loved her because she listened to Pink Floyd and dug it....Zach wouldn't appreciate it as much as Rebekah if I loved him because he did something uber girly (again, God forbid) and dearling Leo only has eyes for his momma...the other two just think I'm a cool old broad that does cool things and while they love me with all their little hearts, none of them are the baby-baby. KWIM?

NCW - Read any of the Spacefarer series? The stories are based on travel utilizing Super String Theory. Liked them - A LOT!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Don’t you have some quirks that you “just do?” Weird little habits that “don’t feel right” when they are not done? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah. P-nut M&Ms must be frozen. You must bite them in half so that you get 1/2 all chocolate in a bite, and the next bite is the rest of the chocolate and the whole p-nut. To eat them any other way would cause the world as we know it to fall into utter madness and chaos! And if you show up at my door to try to change that, I'll whoop you!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> have a servant’s heart toward your spouse </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">D'ya'll really want to know what changed dh an my hearts? The above statement. It was a BAM! We did this. Unthinking. One night we sat down (actually, I was frying tortillas for chalupas) and we said, "We're not gonna do XXX anymore. We can't." It's not easy to put aside 3 years of pain....but one day we both woke up and said we can't do it like we were and so we changed ourselves.

Who'd have thunk it?

- Kimmy

NOW,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Coupla questions. You are saying a WS has an affair because they stop serving the BS. That the REASON they had the affair was because they stopped serving.(THis stems from selfishness) Correct?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not quite. I guess I am dissenting from the "Love Bank" analogy a bit. Or maybe adding to it. I am not sure. Like I said earlier, we need more definitions of love, so let us go to the greek.

Eros - The lustful love. The hormonal love. The "boy she is a hottie" love. This is the hormonal thing. The love that goes away "when the honeymoon is over."

Phileo - The brotherly love. What you feel toward your friends. The love that a married couple who has intimacy issues would have. The partnership love. It is us against the world.

Agape - The unconditional love. The love God has for us that we aspire to have towards others. The love just because they are and made in God's image.

OK. In a healthy marriage all three should be felt toward your spouse. In a marriage fraught with an affair, component(s) will be missing.

If I make deposits in your love bank, your Eros and Phileo towards me will increase. But it will NOT affect your Agape. If I make withdraws, the Eros and Phileo will decrease and it will NOT affect your Agape. The Agape love is a one way thing. It CAN affect the other two, but it will not be affected by them. It is the love that is a choice. It is cultivated by service.

What do I mean by service? EXACTLY what it says. Serving. Putting the needs of someone else ahead of your own. If I began serving you joyfully and unconditionally my Agape love would increase. And it would drag my Phileo with it. What about Eros? It MAY, if you are appealing to me on some fundamental level. It WOULD if you were making deposits in MY love bank.

Let me requote you for convenience.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Coupla questions. You are saying a WS has an affair because they stop serving the BS. That the REASON they had the affair was because they stopped serving.(THis stems from selfishness) Correct?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The reason the WS has an affair is selfishness. Pure and simple. The stopping of service would only be a symptom of STARTING selfishness. If you were walking in Agape love (the CHOICE love) strongly enough, you would not have had the affair because that would not have been serving your husband. So why did you do it?

The OM jacked up your Eros love for him and it sort of overruled the Agape love for your husband. Maybe even some Phileo if there was a strong emotional attachment. You were not exercising that "Agape" muscle and guarding your heart. This led to a bad choice.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WHY DID the WS stop serving the BS?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You got selfish. We are called by God to have a servant's heart. HARD to do if your spouse is not feeding the Phileo love. Almost impossible if he is quenching it. You lost your focus on what you are supposed to DO because you aimed your focus at YOU. But take heart - it was a mistake and you have been forgiven. That's the one nice thing about love and forgiveness. Better late than never really applies.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also, you stated that you had, in general, a servant's heart throughout your marriage. Suppose the WS does not SEE that in a BS? Suppose that the WAYS in which you are serving are not the ways that the WS WANTS to be served?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Most excellent point. That goes right in line with the love languages and HNHN. If I am utilizing my Agape love for you, I am going to protect my Phileo and Eros (love bank) from depleting simply from the efforts. Not saying they can't go down if you are horrible to me, but withdrawals will be more difficult. See? That is why we can say "hate the sin but love the sinner" when we are walking strongly in Agape love.

So I am expending this effort and I am NOT meeting your needs. What would you EXPECT to happen? Your Phileo and Eros will drop, of course. And if YOU are not flexing your Agape love back. Bam. Affair. As soon as the devil finds the right flunkie for you.

My giving of Agape love would increase my love for you, but if you aren't sensing it, it won't increase the love FROM me. That is why couples MUST communicate. If you are not doing that, you are not truly walking in Agape love. Even if you want me to rub your stanky feet after plowing the back 40, I should do it if I am walking in Agape love for you. A servant's heart.

Like the parable with the servants and the talents. That first servant buried the money and gave it back to the master. He THOUGHT he was serving. But he wasn't. The master was not pleased because he did not grow the money. All for the lack of trying. All for the lack of asking. Shameful when you get right down to it and realize how simple it actually is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sure, they were practical needs HE was meeting but they were also spiritual in nature. I'm not sure, now that I've said that, what the connection is, between meeting basic physical needs that at the same time meet spiritual needs.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There is no difference. A need is a need. If it makes a deposit in the Eros or Phileo, your spouse should do it. Unless it is completely distasteful. And maybe not even then. UNCONDITIONAL, right? Course, if you loved him that way, you wouldn't require him to do something distasteful.

Look. All this came from the past months I have spent working on my marriage. I SERVED. (And yes, I made mistakes, so don't jump down my throat). But I served and she made BIG withdrawals from MY Phileo and Eros. And all that time? My love for her GREW. Why? BECAUSE I served. I used my Agape (the account in the bank only I can change by choice) to "trump" the other two accounts. See? It is the more pure love. It is the Christlike love. What can the fleshly accounts do in the face of that? And her? It seemed no matter what I said, or what I did, I could not make a deposit. She wouldn't let me. (PLEASE don't give me advice on how maybe I tried to hard. There was a period where I backed off. It was low pressure (on her) service I was doing.) Why? (My Opinion) Partly she didn't want me to. (Probably fear). And how to overcome that? HER Agape love. You have to take the steps, make the choice. All three of her types were empty for me. Just like the affair, it was a choice on her part. Had she chose to start her Agape love, which is grown by service, I think we would have been OK. She just remained selfish. So what would you expect?

Can you MAKE yourself love someone? NOT Eros, NOT Phileo, but Agape? It is the ONLY way to feel that kind of love for someone. You have to make yourself. Why? Original sin. God graced us with free will. If he stuffed us full of Agape love for our spouse, where would the free will be?

It is scary. There is no promise. It is difficult to do when the Eros and Phileo accounts are in the red. But it worked that way for me. I kid you not, my Eros and Phileo were EMPTY. Heck they were blown up by her and the bank robber that was the first OM. And I filled them, or more accurately gave them a healthy positive balance. By CHOICE. By walking out the Agape love. It was like they just followed suit.

Why am I done? It has been made clear to me that she does not want to be married any longer. I am almost divorcing her FOR agape love. It is what she wants. It has begun to have negative effects on the family that I cannot allow. Essentially, the needs of the many are outweighing the needs of the one.

Why am I done? And in an allusion to the other thread, why do I think God allows divorce in the case of adultery? Free will again. I am not her first choice. Not because of the second affair, but because she CHOSE not to show any Agape love. She gave it to OM2. It is the equivalent of the offense of idolatry toward God. Not putting HIM first.

All the other marital offenses - battering a wife, heavy drinking, compulsive gambling. Those (IMVHO) don't PRECLUDE the Agape choice for your spouse. You can still Agape love your spouse and do bad things to them. That just means you are not good at the Agape love and need to work on it. But an affair? That is the freewill choice that your spouse is NOT your first choice. Same thing as idolatry. There is no honor in it.

Want another example? What do I always say? Look to your kids. There are a lot of answers there. Most of us have Agape love towards our kids in some fashion. Are THEY filling OUR love banks? Probably not. That would actually be kind of weird. They are just being our kids. There is no requirement for them to fill our love banks for a healthy relationship with them. But we love them. With all our hearts. Most of us would die for them. Why all this Agape love for them? We SERVE them. Selflessly. Unconditionally. For YEARS. That is quite a bit of a workout of the "Agape muscle." More than enough to counteract the withdrawals they invariably make as teenagers. (Not on purpose, but in the natural attempt to be their own people and stop being us.)

Hope that cleared things up for you,

NCWalker