Deleted by NCW as it did not contribute to the spirit of the thread.

<small>[ March 06, 2005, 12:46 AM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

NCW....

If I could hug you right now I would.
I have no personal defense for what I did. The only defense I have is the blood of Christ.

I am just speechless right now...because my prayer this morning has just been answered.


NOW

I have no personal defense for what I did. The only defense I have is the blood of Christ AMEN!

NCW, I am awed by this thread and have not even been able to read the whole thing. God bless you.

Anyname,

I screwed up today. I read your post to me and took offense, then went running to "Idiotville" to "lick my wounds". Fortunately, nobody played along, and Noodle called me out on it. She was right....it was a horrible thing for me to do and I apologize.

I could tell that you were really enjoying this thread, and I hate to see it die out. NCW was just extending that servant heart of his to me....and he would do the same for anyone. He is a phenomenal, brilliant man, and has much to offer all of us.

Again, I am sorry...


NOW

NOW, thank you for your apology. Yes I thought the thread was absolutely fascinating. I am not at all religious but thought the point raised by cnwalker to be very valid, even for someone without faith in God. I'm still reeling at its significance but don't feel cn and I can explore it much further in the current emotional climate. Anything I say to cn is not directed at you in any way. I was not calling you on your infidelity but on your comment about BSs, which I hotly disputed.


CN,

::::What she means is that we are not perfect. What she means is that for us to have a hope to live in the way that the Lord desires us to live, we cannot do it without the Lord's help. That is the weakness she is referring to. And, just like she said, it is her spiritual BELIEF. You don't have to believe that way, but I think she was trying to explain, not pick a fight.

I am not quite sure how to communicate effectively with you CN because I have no faith or belief in God. Whilst I can respect your belief and leave you and others to make endless comments that mean nothing to me - I cannot sit back and be accused of being ready to do something that I KNOW I will not do. I don't feel I have to go easy on people because they are religious. If they are accusing me of a wrong doing that I know is unfair and been tested many times, I have a right to protect my feelings and belief system as you feel the need to protect yours.

::::::That comment is pretty mean spirited. Frankly, if you would read 1st John you would find out that God deals pretty heavily with those that turn people from the true faith. In fact, he says that if you even HARBOR a false teacher, you are as guilty as they. Were you intentionally deceiving those people? No. You were trying to help. So I guess comparing what you did to NOW, you probably had a better motive. But I don't think NOW was intentionally trying to hurt her husband. I just think she was considering her needs above his. And that is UNDERSTANDABLE (ONLY) if he was neglectful. In no way negating what she has done. But he forgave her. Probably means she was not acting maliciously. If her husband caught her and the OM and wound up killing them on the spot, would you say he was as guilty as Charles Manson? Yes he committed murder, do the crime, do the time. BUT - I don't think I would fear for MY life around her husband. The reason for his crime would be understandable to me. I wouldn't hang out with Manson at all.

I thought the whole point was that God reads hearts - ????

:::As far as the damage done - I would say yours (AN) was the worse. Knowing or not, you led people astray. (Sorry to any JWs out there. Just how I believe.) When is ignorance of the law an excuse?

I was eighteen yrs old when I did all the damage. Guess that tells you what kind of person I was. I have quite a few JW notches to my belt. If I believe something, I believe it with all my heart. I also have an infectious personality. I have to live with the knowledge that I have hurt a number of people - though they think they are happy being Jehovah's Witnesses. I think they are miserable and I blame myself - there are no words of solace for me on this one.

I was though raised into the religion. Kinda. My grandparents were JWs and well you know how you tend to trust your family to lead you in the right direction. Islamic people bring their kids up to be Muslem and Buddests likewise, and baptist, catholics etc. I was unlucky enough to be exposed to JWs at a young age. Too young to have developed a critical mind. Will your God punish me for that?

quote:from AN:: I know that you think you are a model for humanity, but you are not. We are not all the same.

:::::I did not get the sense that NOW was portraying herself as a model for humanity.

Her claim was that she'd never commit adultery but she eventually did and therefore all BSs who claim they would never do it, would. I just don't see her judging all BSs on a sample group of one.


:::I got the sense that she was applying her real life experience to the philosophical model I set forth in this thread and others have improved on. She is testing my model with her experience to see if she can learn anything from it. Just as you are doing.

I have no problem with WSs or BSs learning and growing from group discussion - but I won't sit by silently if someone accuses me of doing something I will not do. (boy if I was ever going to do it I would have done it last March - I tried real hard to do it, coz the OM was drop dead gorgeous and I was very attracted to him and very angry at my H... so I know I won't do it coz I really wanted to do it, to show my H that two can play at that game! But I couldn't. I couldn't get on a bus and go meet a man, who wanted to have sex with me.... and nor could I risk hurting OMs W!). (btw I thought Satan must be real to send me such a tempting offer at my age!)

::::We are not all the same? So you would be OK if I didn't hire a black person because I thought the were not as intelligent. Or an asian because I didn't think they were as physically strong. Or a woman. Or a non-Christian. Sorry. We ARE all the same.

Not when it comes to the ability to be unfaithful to our Ss. We are not all the same. I have met with Tummytuck from MBs. Her WH is off with some local bimbo and she's 40 and gorgeous. She told me of a situation that tempted her very recently. She was really, really tempted and aching for the OM. But she wouldn't do it. Even with her H gone off screwing OW, she would not take comfort from another woman's H. I once read that not all people will cheat on their spouses, given temptation and opportunity. You have to have the right psychological profile. I knew exactly what they meant by that. I can explain it to you if you want - but you are smart enough to think it thru, I think.


::::We have the SAME propensity for good or evil and that is free-will. Our life's choices and experiences may predispose us towards one or another, but going down the road of we are NOT fundamentally equal is a dangerous one to travel.

I was referring entirely to infidelity and I remain steadfast to my belief. I then demonstrated that we are all capable of doing harm thru stupidity or ignorance, by exposing my underbelly - my converting people to being JWs.

:::I am REALLY CRINGING at your statement that you would not have an affair. At this time, the rewards of unfaithfulness for you outweigh the stress. No what?

It's not just at this time CN.


::::They did for NOW for most of her life. But the stresses and pressures on your life are ever changing. Who is to say that some time in the future, it will be the same for you?

I am sorry if it annoys you that I'm so sure of this. You don't seem to understand that people will avoid affairs for selfish reasons. You just don't get that do you? The physchological profile isn't always up to an A. I'm a flirt and men like me - I'm very playful and friendly - but boy do I know when to back off. I don't want any thing complicated with men. Just some fun banter and then back to the safety of my H's arms. He's broken my heart because I never knew another human being as steady and decent as him - he too is a broken man, but I know with all the wisdom of my 52 yrs that he is best for me and I would not risk losing the pleasure and stablity that he gives me. I wouldn't be unfaithful because I'm too protective of what I have. (I have endless reasons why I wouldn't have an A!)


:::::You are over close to the tsunami strike zone, if I am not mistaken. Look around you. I can say right now that I would NEVER steal. And I am currently unemployed. But if my livelihood was eradicated by an act of nature, my wife and kids were starving, and within a days walk was a family that had plenty but were unwilling to share. Hmmmm. My decision not to steal would be much harder. Not impossible, but faced with the death of my sons? I just pray I don't have to make a choice like that.

OK, I accept your point. Did you see my post where I explained that my H's OW was a desperately poor Indonesian girl with nothing to lose by approaching my H? I don't know what I would do in her circumstances - there are about 230,000 foreign girls working as maids (slaves) here in Hong Kong and most of them don't resort to fornication to boost their incomes.

::::I am frankly disappointed in the tone of your last post. NOW is just on here trying to come to grips with what she has done.

OH here we go again. The WSs get protected almost revered and the BSs have to shut up and take any accusation hurled at them. I'm doing a lot of trying to come to grips with things myself.


:::I have outlined a slick little model and she is trying to see if there is anything to be learned from it. I didn't get the sense she was condemning or accusing or anything.

Well I did. And she was generous spirited enough to apologise.

::::I also notice you have been frequently ending your posts with "I'm too busy to..." and stuff like that. I would ask are you too busy to read carefully as well?

Apparently. Does that make you feel good to criticise my comprehension skills? Why don't you have a go at my spelling while you are at it? I was remedial at school - I think they call it dyslexia. It takes me hours to read and write the few posts I try to read and write on MBs. Comments like yours make me feel really small. Except that Noodle, who's an intellectual giant, also took NOWs meaning the way I did.

::Also, what business is it of yours? Let's assume you are RIGHT and NOW is trying to OK her transgression in her own mind by applying this model. And believe me, I don't think she is. But I'll play along, let's assume she is. So what? If her intent is to assuage the demons that are assailing her self image so she doesn't beat herself up for the rest of her life, what is wrong with that?

Hello???? How big do you think the shoulders of BSs are? You want us to help Now feel better about herself by agreeing that we'd all do what she did?

Can I ask you what possible reason NOW had for saying BSs are potential cheaters?

:::In my book, that would mean she is trying to take off the old sack cloth and ashes and get her head right so she can concentrate on her husband and marriage.

She can take off the sack cloth and ashes - she can do that by working it out with her husband and her God. She doesn't have to involve innocent bystanders in her quest to feel better about herself.

She's fine. She made a silly statement and she apologised and if you had left it to her and me it would have been settled peacefully. She is not accountable to me for what she did but she is accountable for the things she says to others. I think she understands that and accepts it and she'll be a better poster for learning from her mistake. So where does that leave us?

:::::A broken heart and contrite spirit has yet to be denied. NOW has that. Get off her back.

Is her guilt worse than my sorrow, that you defend her and are so damning of me?

AN

Anyname,

I am glad you have accepted my apology. But I do NOT want you and NCW arguing over me.
I do believe there is a misunderstanding about what I meant by my statement. I did NOT say that any BS who thinks they would never have an affair WOULD. I said that the possibility exists. You said yourself you were tempted, does that not speak of possibility? You did not, and I sincerely admire you for that. I would not want to be in your shoes as one who has been betrayed. And I would not wish upon you the pain of having been the betrayer.
I never said you absolutely would have an affair, just because you think you would not.
Now consider what I say next as my belief as a Christian, and NOT as a condemnation towards you....because it is not my place to condemn a brother or sister....and I am the LAST person to have any right to condemn. But the Bible says that when a "man" lusts after a "woman" he has committed adultery in his heart.

Our thought life is as condemning of us as our actions. That is the Christian view, and that is where I am coming from. That's all.

NOW

AN,

Can you explain what is wrong the JW faith? I don't understand what you mean by leading people into that religion being bad.

I don't know any JW's, but they come to the door to talk and leave pamplets.

Just curious AN. Sorry if this is a threadjack NCWalker. Maybe an open forum isn't the place to discuss this either, as it might offend some of that faith.

<small>[ March 05, 2005, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

{my editor filled this post with extra line spaces. Same post below. NCW}

<small>[ March 05, 2005, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

Anyname,

First and foremost, I am glad you are sticking to your guns. I may have recently posted this somewhere else, but it bears repeating here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mark Twain: In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What we are doing, you and I, is testing our beliefs by fire. Means they are NOT second hand and NOT without examination. It is an important process and you are stretching me as much as I you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN::I am not quite sure how to communicate effectively with you CN because I have no faith or belief in God. ... I cannot sit back and be accused of being ready to do something that I KNOW I will not do. I don't feel I have to go easy on people because they are religious. ... I have a right to protect my feelings and belief system as you feel the need to protect yours.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just communicate with me. What I say will depend on my personal experience and my belief. Just like yours. And NOT believing is a belief. I respect that. Also, I am not accusing you of doing anything. If you don't want to go easy on people because they are religious (me included), fire away. My OPINION, and understand it was based on what you typed without the benefits of real-time, personal communication, is that you were too harsh on NOW. I thought she was just trying to figure things out for herself, not disparage you. You also DO have a right to protect your feelings and belief system. I wouldn't have it any other way.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN:: I thought the whole point was that God reads hearts - ????</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He does. I would bring up an abortion clinic bomber. As I Christian, I am against abortion (and don't want to debate it), but I cannot and do not support those who feel the need to bomb an abortion clinic because of their Christian beliefs. They may THINK that their hearts are right. They may have "good" intentions. But their heart is NOT in line with God. IF your heart was right, my contention is that in most cases your actions would agree with your heart. The trouble comes when they DON'T. Which is my main point of the thread, about the head leading the heart. Both our WS's hearts were NOT right. And they followed their hearts. And did wrong. Made the free-will choice to give in to their hearts. And we see that as wrong, because it is. If your husband looked at you and said, "I love YOU more than anything, but this poor OW was neglected and needed some companionship and compassion so I made love to her to help her self-esteem." How would you react to that? His HEART would be right. His head would be in question.

How about if he said "Darling, I feel as if I am not in love with you anymore. I feel as if our marriage is in trouble. I don't think I can continue. I was tempted today, and refused to honor my vows, but we need to work this all out." And made the choice to NOT cheat confessing this to you. Here is HEART is not right, but he made the CHOICE to do the right thing head wise. Which scenario would please you?

I believe in God's eyes, it is BOTH heart and works that pleases Him. Fotunately, he has grace, mercy and forgiveness too.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN:: I have to live with the knowledge that I have hurt a number of people - though they think they are happy being Jehovah's Witnesses. I think they are miserable and I blame myself - there are no words of solace for me on this one. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And like I have said before, a broken heart and a contrite spirit have yet to be denied. I was making an example in that it is difficult to determine which "sin" is the worst. In God's eyes, sin is sin. It is only in our eyes that there are levels of it. And that is only because we can't comprehend the wonder that is Him. OK. I feel this is one of the biggest things you are missing because of your beliefs. Your heart is broken over your time as a JW. You are thus forgiven. Regardless of your faith, it is pleasing to me to see that you are well grounded in your personal moral code. I am impressed because I get the sense that you hold the people in your life to the standards you set, not the standards you want. That is a pretty healthy (secular) outlook.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN:: Will your God punish me for that?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely not. Under those circumstances. Your grandparents will get a stern talking to, however. Better to have a millstone hung from your neck and thrown in a river than to lead a child astray.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN:: I have no problem with WSs or BSs learning and growing from group discussion - but I won't sit by silently if someone accuses me of doing something I will not do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she was saying that the CAPABILITY to commit sin in general, and adultery in specific, is within all of us. More so in some than in others, based on the situations they are in and the personal moral codes they have developed. I don't think she was saying the BS, or you in partuclar, is MORE susceptible for any reason.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(boy if I was ever going to do it I would have done it last March - I tried real hard to do it, coz the OM was drop dead gorgeous and I was very attracted to him and very angry at my H... so I know I won't do it coz I really wanted to do it, to show my H that two can play at that game! But I couldn't. I couldn't get on a bus and go meet a man, who wanted to have sex with me.... and nor could I risk hurting OMs W!). (btw I thought Satan must be real to send me such a tempting offer at my age!)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I would say I didn't lie, or steal, or kill anyone for the whole month of February. Does not mean I won't do it in March. It only means I am not LIKELY to do it in March.

You stood down a temptation and followed your moral code. That is wonderful and laudable. I had a drill sergeant yell at me one day. He said "Troop, you did great yesterday. But that is ancient history, what are you going to do good today?" The point is, you live in today. The danger is with enough attacks your moral code may weaken to the point where you DO fall. One of the reasons I am glad I have faith, but that DOES NOT mean that you can't keep your personal moral code strong without faith. It does mean that whatever method chosen, we must work at it. Strengthen it. Examine it. Just like we are doing now.

Your comment about thinking Satan real REALLY intrigued me. Do you know how many Christians I know that fully acknowledge the existence of God, but are reluctant to admit the existence of Satan? It is really strange. They just don't feel that there is an enemy out there whose goal is to tempt and trick us. Heck, IMHO you have one of the hardest "faith pills" swallowed and held down. I would ask, what's keeping you from swallowing the whole thing? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not when it comes to the ability to be unfaithful to our Ss. We are not all the same.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You use the word "ability." Hopefully, you mean "mindset" because I am personally ABLE to have an affair. All my body parts are functioning and I could carry out the act. And I would agree with your sense on this. I think we both realize what each other is saying. My point - there is no innate or inborn resistance to adultery. Look at cannibals. THEY think it is OK to eat people. I would not do that. Because of my developed beliefs, morals, faith, whatever.

Point conceded about the developed mindset. I am very unlikely to commit adultery. Because of the developed mindset. I think both NOW and I were making the point that one cannot be complacent about PROTECTING that mindset, or the RISK of acting counter to it increases. But I know you know that, from the way you are posting.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NCW::: I am REALLY CRINGING at your statement that you would not have an affair. At this time, the rewards of unfaithfulness for you outweigh the stress. No what?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN:: It's not just at this time CN.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would agree that it is not you at this time. My cringing comes from the fact that making a NEVER kind of a statement is a little sweeping. I think my point was negated because of your saying "at this time." I get a little nervous when people use the NEVER word, to me it is akin to pride coming before a fall. You have stopped my cringing because I can see that you fully understand it takes work and effort to stick by your moral code. It is not some thing that once developed requires no maintenance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sorry if it annoys you that I'm so sure of this. You don't seem to understand that people will avoid affairs for selfish reasons. You just don't get that do you? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doesn't annoy me. In my life, I have seen statements like "I will never do X" result in the person eventually DOING X. Almost like a bait for temptation. I said it out of concern for my fellow man (you). And I do get it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The physchological profile isn't always up to an A. I'm a flirt and men like me - I'm very playful and friendly - but boy do I know when to back off. I don't want any thing complicated with men. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But here we go. In my marriage, I avoided playful flirting. Not only is my moral code against an affair, but I chose not to subject it to situations where it would be battered. I would ask between us, who is more likely to have one? I won't get lost in the woods because I am refusing to leave the road, proverbially. You are leaving the road, but keeping a CAREFUL eye on where the road is. You are MUCH closer to making that fateful step that will get you lost than I am. Not saying you will, but if I was betting money, it would be on me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know what I would do in her circumstances - there are about 230,000 foreign girls working as maids (slaves) here in Hong Kong and most of them don't resort to fornication to boost their incomes.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What you would do is test your moral code. My point, which you understand, is that the likelihood of that moral code failing is proportional to the extremeness of the situation you are in.

{Edited by NCW to remove stuff that did not contribute to the thread.}

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NCW:: If her intent is to assuage the demons that are assailing her self image so she doesn't beat herself up for the rest of her life, what is wrong with that?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN:: Hello???? How big do you think the shoulders of BSs are? You want us to help Now feel better about herself by agreeing that we'd all do what she did?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. Not at all. But remorse can be a horrid thing. From their posts, both NOW and RH (her BS) have beaten themselves up with questions like "What did I do wrong." Comes with the territory of trying to understand something so difficult to comprehend. All I am saying is NOW has to live with the fact of what she has done and I think she is using our "servant's heart" theory, and it is a theory, to see if she can find some explanation. I mean, she has to live with herself. Or is she just supposed to say "I am a horrible, evil woman" for the rest of her life? If I had done something that wrong, I would want to absolutely understand why, if for no other reason than to avoid the mistake again.

BS shoulders? I think they are pretty darn big (yours included) and they have to be to ATTEMPT recovery from such a wrong. How big should they be? Depends on the situation. Every BS is different, every WS is different. Some of us don't make it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Case in point, me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN::: Can I ask you what possible reason NOW had for saying BSs are potential cheaters? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I say this without checking back on the thread, I think she was saying EVERYONE is a potential cheater. I don't think she was commenting on the likelihood of it, only the possibility of it. And the danger of saying I'll NEVER do it. That comes from her faith (and mine too). We feel that standing and saying something like that is ASKING to be tempted. Consequently, she and I DON'T say it. Out of caring, more than anything, we tried to communicate that to you. But you don't have the same faith, so it does not compute. That's OK. Means we just need to drop it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She can take off the sack cloth and ashes - she can do that by working it out with her husband and her God. She doesn't have to involve innocent bystanders in her quest to feel better about herself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think she meant to. At least, I didn't get the sense that she did. You did get that sense. And responded how you felt appropriate. She apologized. Case closed.

{Edited by NCW to remove for portions that did not contribute to the thread.}

And don't go. You ARE contributing.

NCWalker

<small>[ March 06, 2005, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

NCWALKER:


DO you ever get tired of these long posts.....Your killing my ink cartridges....


ROFLMAO


YOUR HUSBAND TO BE...<--------------- Read joint thread to understand this folks..

I love you too, Mike.

Or should I just go ahead and let everyone know I call you "Big Boy." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

You don't have to print 'em, you can save 'em to the hard drive.

As for the long posts, I used to make a living writing computer code. My typing speed is probably something like 80 wpm. I can as fast as I can talk. So I get carried away because it doesn't take a lot of effort.

NCW

I have absolutely no contribution to make to this astonishing thread. However, I'd love to get Anyname's attention so can someone tell her to pop into Idiotville when she has a moment. TT

:::Can you explain what is wrong the JW faith? I don't understand what you mean by leading people into that religion being bad.


Hi Weaver, The JWs interpret the Bible to suit their own beliefs e.g. that a blood transfusion is a sin against God and that human life should be sacrificed rather than having a blood transfusion. That is just one example of a belief that badly impacts on members of the sect (especially where children are involved). They also enforce shunning of family members who chose to leave the sect - they don't talk to anyone who leaves for the reasons of non believing. I was excommunicated over 20 yrs ago and shut out of family association.

There belief system is basically a big package of rules and regulations designed to keep the members on the church treadmill and there is no room for questioning or doubts. It's highly rigid and unloving organisation and it swallows people up whole!

Of course I know how nice they are when they come to the door (I was one!) hehehe!. It's not about them being nice or not its about them being drones for a religion that is full of misconception and hypocrisy. I can't possibly tell you what I learned in ten yrs of being a JW or in the 20+ yrs since leaving it. I can just tap off a very quick overview. If you are really interested or concerned I'll chat on a new thread with you about it. My siblings and relatives are devout JWs.

Cnwalker. thanx for your reply. I think there is a scripture about an answer given in mildness turns off the heat or words to that effect. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I am sure you know that I have differing opinions on some of what you said. But no point in pressing futher on this subject. We've made our points and the proof, as they say, is in the pudding!

NOW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Tummytuck, Will have to look see what's so interesting in IV. Sorry I haven't called you. I've been immobilized in a block of ice since leaving my Aussie summer. Hey, my flight got to HK, tried to land in the fog, gave up and went to Manilla. Geez, a free 5 hour side trip included in the price! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

an

:::It is an important process and you are stretching me as much as I you.

CN, I was going to let this die but I think there is a bit more to be said.

:::And NOT believing is a belief. I respect that.

It's where you end up when you don't have anywhere else to go. Many say we 'threw the baby out with the bath water' when we left the JWs - but it was all very shattering at the time and we'd had enough. Most people don't want to step into another A after they've just had one In many ways it was like that.

:::::And I would say I didn't lie, or steal, or kill anyone for the whole month of February. Does not mean I won't do it in March. It only means I am not LIKELY to do it in March.

That's not a good point of comparison. I suppose the stupid thing about my claim is that since my H's A I felt released from the contract I made with him. The last two years have seen a few more offers than usual. Have I taken more notice or what? but even with a belief that my H had broken the contract and with a very good offer in hand, I couldn't do it.

::::You stood down a temptation and followed your moral code. That is wonderful and laudable. I had a drill sergeant yell at me one day. He said "Troop, you did great yesterday. But that is ancient history, what are you going to do good today?" The point is, you live in today. The danger is with enough attacks your moral code may weaken to the point where you DO fall. One of the reasons I am glad I have faith, but that DOES NOT mean that you can't keep your personal moral code strong without faith. It does mean that whatever method chosen, we must work at it. Strengthen it. Examine it. Just like we are doing now.

I have tried to understand why I have such a strong mind-set about cheating. I think I could make a list of ten reasons why a person wouldn't cheat, that have nothing to do with religion or integrity. You haven't addressed nor do you seem interested in pursuing that side of the debate. It's not always about good and evil. The physchological, emotional reasons why some people wouldn't cheat are just as compelling as the moral ones.

:::Your comment about thinking Satan real REALLY intrigued me. Do you know how many Christians I know that fully acknowledge the existence of God, but are reluctant to admit the existence of Satan?

It doesn't surprise me. No offense but it starts to sound silly when you bring the devil into the equation. It's a bit like and where does the tooth fairy fit in? (you said not to go easy on you!)

::::It is really strange. They just don't feel that there is an enemy out there whose goal is to tempt and trick us. Heck, IMHO you have one of the hardest "faith pills" swallowed and held down. I would ask, what's keeping you from swallowing the whole thing?

Basically I just don't get the God thing. I think people assume you are trying to be clever or intellectual - which is rediculous given my academic performance or lack there of. At a very fundemental level, I don't get it. Like a difficult Math problem I spose.

I made the Satan statement because the circumstances were really, really weird - just how Christians portray it. I was having a very hard time dealing with the A and I was in Australia and H was in HK. One nite I was so angry I made a blanket statement to my H. Next time I get an opportunity to have an A, it's a done deal. I wanted him to know how it feels. I told him I wasn't going to sleep with just any man, but would wait until I got an attractive offer and given my previous history I was confident that as time passed, something would come up that would fit the bill as an attractive offer.

H took me very seriously. Three days later the best looking 50 yo I'd ever met was chatting me up on the flight back to HK. He (a flight attendant) was talking to me while he made me some tea in the kitchen area and I wasn't really listening until he said he loved his wife but was in love with someone else. So I hit him with the MBs concepts for half an hour or so. This guy couldn't get enough of this stuff but he started to say nice stuff to me.

Now I didn't come down in the last shower.
But this was like some kind of cosmic set up. Coz, he had all the ingredients that I needed to bake an A cake.

I told my H about it - it was hard to disguise my delight coming off the flight. My H commented that someone up there was *&*&&^^%$ with us. He just couldn't believe that at 51, I took 3 days to find a man suitable to have an A with (oh btw the guy kept contact with me until I put a stop to it). Hence, we both thought of this being the classic Satan providing temptation situation. It smelt very fishy and it was close to being the most tempting situation I'd ever been in. He really was unbelievably good looking. Which is basically why my H had an A. OW was very good looking according to his ideal woman, at the time.

::::you mean "mindset" because I am personally ABLE to have an affair. All my body parts are functioning and I could carry out the act. And I would agree with your sense on this. I think we both realize what each other is saying. My point - there is no innate or inborn resistance to adultery. Look at cannibals. THEY think it is OK to eat people. I would not do that. Because of my developed beliefs, morals, faith, whatever.

turning cannible is a good analogy. One imagines it would be out of need to survive that one would do that. I'm not sure that it's even against the Bible if the body is already dead - like in that movie of the plane crash in the Andies. Did you see that film? I would go so far as to say taht God would prefer you save your life by eating a dead human, rather than dying of starvation. This is where the JWs get the blood transfusion belief all screwed up. God instructed his people to eat unbled meat and do a ritual cleansing before sun set, if they were starving in the wilderness (admittedly he called the unbled meat an animal but....?) . Hence life is more important than the law when it comes to eating blood. But, certainly canniblism is a good example oof a conditioned mind-set.


::::You have stopped my cringing because I can see that you fully understand it takes work and effort to stick by your moral code. It is not some thing that once developed requires no maintenance.

Did you know that adultery can increase or decrease according to geography? Environmental factors can cause a person to lose their mindset. Which rather messes up the EN concept - but not your serving concept!

::::But here we go. In my marriage, I avoided playful flirting. Not only is my moral code against an affair, but I chose not to subject it to situations where it would be battered. I would ask between us, who is more likely to have one?

YOU!!!! My H never flirted and he had the A. Whereas I flirted for years and stayed faithful. Actually I think flirting is a two edged sword. Healthy for the participants but not for their Ss. In fact it's really hurtful and embarrassing for the Ss of flirters. Hence I try to keep it to a minimum. The reason I say it's healthy for the participants is that it fills the void we all have for shallow flattery. A's may happen to people who haven't had a good healthy share of shallow flattery thru their lives. So they are unaccustomed to it when it happens and they don't know when to stop. (just one theory?)



:::What you would do is test your moral code. My point, which you understand, is that the likelihood of that moral code failing is proportional to the extremeness of the situation you are in.

Mostly though MBs is dealing with the everyday type of A's not the put food in your stomach type.

::::::::: All I am saying is NOW has to live with the fact of what she has done and I think she is using our "servant's heart" theory, and it is a theory, to see if she can find some explanation. I mean, she has to live with herself. Or is she just supposed to say "I am a horrible, evil woman" for the rest of her life? If I had done something that wrong, I would want to absolutely understand why, if for no other reason than to avoid the mistake again.

Understanding is the pathway to acceptance. I hung onto this rope from very early in the process. So hard to understand though - given everything I've already said! But the other thing you mentioned "I'm a horrible, evil woman" scenario? That's another reason I never did it - coz I'd be stuck on that one forever. I know myself and I'd be so weighed down with sack cloth and ashes, I'd never get up again. Some WS suicide over their unfaithfulness. Maybe some of us know our limitations before we embark on certain things. I really couldn't hack the guilt. Don't know how my H does it. Keeps himself real busy serving me I guess. Serving has a huge benefit to a FWS. You should repost the concept of serving every other month for newbies. I see it as a route for the WS to regain their sense of self worth - and for the BS to feel safe again.

an

Very interesting thread.

My $0.02 ?

I am not immune to having an affair because I might CHOOSE so to do. If I have an affair I won't whine " It just happened, I never meant to, it wasn't my fault, I couldn't help it", I will CHOOSE to further a relationship into feelings of love and sex if I want to.

I have had many opportunities to be unfaithful over the years and never have. My wife had one opportunity (AFAIK) and took it.

Anyname,

Glad to see you think the pool is still fun.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NCW::And I would say I didn't lie, or steal, or kill anyone for the whole month of February. Does not mean I won't do it in March. It only means I am not LIKELY to do it in March.

AN::That's not a good point of comparison.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You missed my point. What I am saying is that the fact that you haven't done it before does not mean that you WON'T do it in the future. And I understand you have logical, good valid reasons for NOT having one.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN:: The physchological, emotional reasons why some people wouldn't cheat are just as compelling as the moral ones.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree wholeheartedly. I am guarded against an affair because I "just wasn't raised that way." But now that I have faith, it is not the ONLY reason. BTW, I was NOT raised as a Christian.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NCW:::Your comment about thinking Satan real REALLY intrigued me. Do you know how many Christians I know that fully acknowledge the existence of God, but are reluctant to admit the existence of Satan?

AN:::It doesn't surprise me. No offense but it starts to sound silly when you bring the devil into the equation. It's a bit like and where does the tooth fairy fit in? (you said not to go easy on you!)</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It surprised me because you skirted the idea of belief in the devil. IMO, it is SILLY to NOT bring the devil into the equation. For he is there. Not the other way around.

And it is OK to not get the God thing. I didn't for many years. Sometimes I still don't.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN::: He just couldn't believe that at 51, I took 3 days to find a man suitable to have an A with (oh btw the guy kept contact with me until I put a stop to it).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HAH. To me, you sound well read and intelligent. Also well spoken. The FIRST thing that makes a woman unattractive to me is when she is NOT well spoken. I just don't feel like I can have a relationship with someone like that. One of the BIGGEST LB's my WW does is curse.

You should have told your husband "It is only surprising to the superficial men."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN::: Did you know that adultery can increase or decrease according to geography? Environmental factors can cause a person to lose their mindset. Which rather messes up the EN concept - but not your serving concept!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not know that. But it doesn't surprise me. Environmental factors do influence us in addition to our ENs. And apparently they can overcome them. That is why I like my servant's heart concept. It contains the guarding of the heart as required service. Much better chance of surviving a storm if you have prepared for it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN:: YOU!!!! My H never flirted and he had the A. Whereas I flirted for years and stayed faithful.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Point conceded. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> One could convincingly argue that my repression and unmet needs for so long might burst and turn me into an A slinging monster. Now there is an interesting mental picture. Whereas your appropriate exploration via flirting keeps your internal meter out of the red zone.

But the bible does talk exactly like that, I think it is in Colossians where it says do not keep yourselves from each other, except for a time by agreement.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN:: Mostly though MBs is dealing with the everyday type of A's not the put food in your stomach type.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed. Comes down to personal weakness and poor choices.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">AN:: Maybe some of us know our limitations before we embark on certain things. I really couldn't hack the guilt. Don't know how my H does it. Keeps himself real busy serving me I guess. Serving has a huge benefit to a FWS.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hadn't considered it from this angle. My point was the FWS serving would rekindle the lost feelings of love for the BS. But that is another benefit. Just as forgiveness is for the transgressed so they don't eat themselves up from the inside, repentance and atonement is for the transgressor, so their flesh doesn't continually condemn them.

I have noticed that you are somewhat of a world traveler. May I ask what you do? (I am an engineer, currently unemployed, but not for long). I have only been out of the US 3 times in my life. And never forgot the experience each time. Especially the last one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

NCWalker

anyname:

"The JWs interpret the Bible to suit their own beliefs"

What organized religion doesn't do this?

"There belief system is basically a big package of rules and regulations designed to keep the members on the church treadmill and there is no room for questioning or doubts."

What organized religion isn't? ...at least 2 the perceived "downtrodden", perhaps.

"It's highly rigid and unloving organisation and it swallows people up whole!"

Again, depending on one's experience, this could describe ANY organized religion.

"It's not about them being nice or not its about them being drones for a religion that is full of misconception and hypocrisy."

Same observation.

End of TJ

-ol' 2long <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

OOOPS! We have been found out! Everybody hide! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks 2'long. At the very least for prompting self-examination.

NCW

NCW & Company,
My FWW has told me I should have an affair to see how it feels to love someone other than her. I tell her thats not her call. I have no interest in anyone other than her. The opportunity presented itself or should I say herself last fall to me. She is 15 years younger than me, and I was flattered. But no matter what she tried I refused her advances. I passed on it because it is not who I am and what I am about. I know it is not that easy for some, however. She has since told me she is glad I stood firm and talked her through her situation and didn't give in to her. Just my take on this. rdl

RDL,

WHY would you say you could resist?

Does it fall in line with the theory presented?

Surely she was feeding your Eros and probably your Phileo. Were you walking out your Agape for your WW?

NCW