AN,

Thank you for answering my question. I think I have a pretty good understanding now of why you feel the way you do.

2long:

::::What organized religion doesn't do this?

But I wasn't asked about other religions. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

AN

cn, H is an academic. I am not working. We've lived in Hong Kong three times now. First 7 yrs then a break. Then four yrs, then a break, then four yrs and now we're leaving again in June. We do a lot of travelling because the income is very good in Asia and living in a highly populated city tends to mean you want to get away a lot.

Very glad to hear you will be working again soon.

I still don't know your story. I thought your WW was a FWW. Are you separated?

Btw I did get your point about the stealing, but I like a comparison to be more like the problem we're discussing. Maybe stealing does qualify for that. It seemed a bit too simplistic or was I being too picky?

regards
AN

RLD:

::: My FWW has told me I should have an affair to see how it feels to love someone other than her.

Geez, This is a really interesting comment. Actually affairs are like hobbies. You can't take one up to please other people. A hobby is something you find yourself doing a lot because you really enjoy it. A's are just the same - they happen because of a strong unexpected feeling of delight in the company of OP.

What interests me is what you wife said though. BEcause if you were to take her advice and proceed it wouldn't feel that great because it would be contrived. BUT, if per chance next week you did meet someone who had all the right combinations of things you liked in a female and she was not pushy but charming, funny and witty etc and obviously glowing in your company - and you proceeded to take it into a secret relationship because you were so attracted to being with her - yes you would get to see what it was like for your WW.... BUT the big surprise would be how your wife took it. She clearly doesn't know how *she would feel* to have you in la la land about anoteher woman. She may be the exception to the rule, but my bet is that she'd be feeling very, very confronted. In fact there was a discussion about this same thing on MB just last week. Several WHs told their wifes the M was over and to find some one else. When they did that, or pretended to do that, the WH started hanging around all the time and watching their behavior/phone calls etc very closely - even though they themselves had wanted the M to end. Interesting eh?


:::But no matter what she tried I refused her advances. I passed on it because it is not who I am and what I am about. I know it is not that easy for some, however. She has since told me she is glad I stood firm and talked her through her situation and didn't give in to her. Just my take on this. rdl

It could be that like me,you don't have the right physchological profile to cheat. If this tread continues I'd like to talk more abut the emotional side of why some people don't cheat - besides the religious/integrity side.

An (rushing as usual)

NCW,
Sorry I took so long to reply. Computer time limited. That younger woman was all Eros. I could see that clearly. While the thought crossed my mind, I couldn't do what she wanted at the time, regardless of my M situation. I honestly feel all 3 types for my W, even after her A. 2 wrongs don't make a right.
AN,
I must not be wired for an A because in 27 years of M I have remained faithful to my W. She is all I need and it is good! I believe you end one relationship before you start another. That other woman was in disbelief as to my resolve through the years, but she just doesn't know me.
Hope I didn't revive this thread too late.
My thanks to NCW & AN <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> RDL

AN,

I too know that I would never cheat. I got involved with a MM without knowing he was married. And that is the honest to God truth. I agonized over this for atleast two years before I forgave myself for unwittingly hurting another. I finally got over my self-flagulation by accepting the fact that if I had known I would not have done it.

I am not capable of knowingly hurting another human being. And I am not capable of lieing. Even my boss told me I was honest to a fault.

I also have the unfortunate ability to look at the big picture before I do something. It's a curse I think. I picture the whole thing all the way to it's culmination and end. In an affair opportunity, this is an instant killer if you are incapable of hurting another human being.

Maybe that's it, maybe it's because we see the big picture right up front BEFORE we act, so that is our deterent.

I know it is definately not lack of opportunity. H@ll I worked as a bartender for 10 years and got hit on more than I can remember, but I never once considered taking up a MM on his offer. It made my stomach curl just thinking about it.

I agree with renewingdeeplove about not being wired that way. And it is not my love of God that keeps me honest, it is my love of people.

Edited to add - maybe it is my love of God, because to me love of God IS love of people <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>

NCW,

In an earlier thread you implied that you do not buy in to the EN stuff. That it is not about feeling in love but choosing to love. You fault RAP for choosing to be unfaithful v. choosing to love you - first by being faithful.

But HNHR (EN&LB) suggest that you are responsible for how WS feels. And that if WS does not feel in love with you - that is your responsibility. And that you need to do something about that. Do you agree? I would appreciate your take as I at one time wholeheartedly took your position on choosing to love - but now I am beginning to understand that it cannot stop there.

wwjd now,

This theory has been kind of fleshed out as we go and probably needs a recap of some sort.

The main point is, it is possible to feel love for someone (Agape) by SERVING them. Entirely giving. And if it is done with joy and a servant's heart by the biblical description, my contention is that it can actually "drag" the Phileo and Eros love with it.

But this requires strength. Strength beyond our own flesh. And of COURSE it will get tiresome if the other party is not reciprocating with the same service. If I love my spouse, I should serve her. If I don't love my spouse, I should serve her and I will start to love her. She should do the same for me.

I say this because I experienced it. Used my Agape to drag along my Phileo and Eros while my WS met NONE of my needs.

I will check HN/HN. I don't suscribe to the theory that I am responsible for ANYONE's feelings. That doesn't give me a license to treat people how I like and they should just deal with it. I can negatively interact with someone and make it difficult for them to NOT be angry. But in the end, it is THEIR feelings.

Having said that, IF you love someone, you SHOULD be willing to serve - meet their needs. The biblical references take that one step further. The greatest among us will be the servant of all.

NCWalker

Edited to add the following:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But HNHR (EN&LB) suggest that you are responsible for how WS feels. And that if WS does not feel in love with you - that is your responsibility. And that you need to do something about that. Do you agree?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. I don't think I agree. It kind of implies that if I walked up to anyone and started meeting their needs, they would love me.

I have the responsibility to identify and attempt to meet my WW's needs, because that is how she is best served. But that is no guarantee she will love me. SHE is accountable for her feelings and the choices she makes based on them. If I have no accountability, how can I have responsibility?

If we can place responsibility for our feelings on the actions of others, we can begin to justify murder, rape, etc.

<small>[ March 12, 2005, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: ncwalker ]</small>

NCW,
It's been said that feelings are neither right or wrong, they just are. In other words, feelings happen on their own within someone and cannot be forced or shut off easily. If the feelings are a result of something true and genuine and are built on something real then wonderful times are ahead. If the feelings are brought out by a situation that is not real and true and not built on solid ground then confusion and turmoil soon follow. The feelings seem to be the same, but the difference is in what brought those feelings about. Affairs are difficult in that the feelings seem true and genuine, like in a loving marriage, but the foundation of the affair is not solid or true.
Thoughts on the other hand are not to be confused with feelings. Thoughts are about conscious ideas or decisions about something. I think the weather is great outside today. The weather makes me feel exited to be outside today. Some would not see the difference here but for me thoughts and feelings are not the same things. You can have both, but thoughts are conscious efforts, feelings come from somewhere else within us, maybe our heart.
These thoughts I share with you, and I feel glad to do so. Always, RDL

NCW,
Just didn't want to see this thread die out. A lot of people might benefit from your posts as well as others here. I sure have. Thanks, RDL

Hey NC:

Been busy w/work and DD, therefore unable to participate much on here lately. Sending a quick THANKS to renewingdeeplove for bringing this thread back up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The main point is, it is possible to feel love for someone (Agape) by SERVING them. Entirely giving. And if it is done with joy and a servant's heart by the biblical description, my contention is that it can actually "drag" the Phileo and Eros love with it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have an awe-inspiring quote by Mike Singletary, the famous Pro linebacker that speaks of this very topic. (serving his W) For this big, tough man whose career environment was violence and aggression to write the words is pretty incredible. I'll try to find it when I get home and post it.

Further pertaining to the "serving" subject; it's my belief that God intended for both spouses to feel, act and live this way - which would only produce the best of marriages!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Edited to add the following:


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But HNHR (EN&LB) suggest that you are responsible for how WS feels. And that if WS does not feel in love with you - that is your responsibility. And that you need to do something about that. Do you agree?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No. I don't think I agree. It kind of implies that if I walked up to anyone and started meeting their needs, they would love me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I clearly do not agree for personal reasons.

I also agree that I am not responsible for anyone's feelings, good or bad. (So many miss this point!) I am however totally responsible for my own actions. And by compassion, may my actions be serving to others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have the responsibility to identify and attempt to meet my WW's needs, because that is how she is best served. But that is no guarantee she will love me. SHE is accountable for her feelings and the choices she makes based on them. If I have no accountability, how can I have responsibility?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right! And w/o responsibility - there will be no accountability!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If we can place responsibility for our feelings on the actions of others, we can begin to justify murder, rape, etc. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And by placing responsibility for our feelings (WS) on the actions of others (BS and/or OP's) we also attempt to justify A's!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NCW,
It's been said that feelings are neither right or wrong, they just are. In other words, feelings happen on their own within someone and cannot be forced or shut off easily. If the feelings are a result of something true and genuine and are built on something real then wonderful times are ahead. If the feelings are brought out by a situation that is not real and true and not built on solid ground then confusion and turmoil soon follow. The feelings seem to be the same, but the difference is in what brought those feelings about. Affairs are difficult in that the feelings seem true and genuine, like in a loving marriage, but the foundation of the affair is not solid or true.
Thoughts on the other hand are not to be confused with feelings. Thoughts are about conscious ideas or decisions about something. I think the weather is great outside today. The weather makes me feel exited to be outside today. Some would not see the difference here but for me thoughts and feelings are not the same things. You can have both, but thoughts are conscious efforts, feelings come from somewhere else within us, maybe our heart.
These thoughts I share with you, and I feel glad to do so. Always, RDL
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Right RDL. And what happens so often in A's is that the OP usually is not dealing with the same "life-sitch" that the BS is. Ex: Say WS and BS make a bad business decision and lose bundles of $$. There is enormous stress incurred with a loss such as this and this stress takes it's toll on all involved. By serving each other; the spouses dig out of the hole - the same way they got into the hole - together. Then once out of the hole, they are stronger - as a couple and as a team. However when OP comes along w/o the stresses of the "life-sitch"; the OP "appears" to be better, more attractive, etc. than the spouse. (Stress-free, no kids to deal with, etc., much like spouse was early in M). So WS has "feelings" about how life might be with OP - which are actually the same "feelings" WS had long ago w/BS. This is where thoughts should enter the picture. (Thoughts about perspective !) However, those who deny the thoughts and act on the "feelings-only" get into the trap that causes so many to be on this site. Thus the downward spiral into the fog...

Good Stuff! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

FR

FR,
I agree with the responsibilty & accountability part of your post. Also the idea that one cannot compare life with a BS to life with OP is right on. Life with a spouse is about everything, good and bad. Life with the OP is always based on the good stuff because that's all there is to share. That's all the life they share. It's like a fantasy life. The problem is it's based on emotions and feelings. For a relationship to last, it needs to be built on more than good times, emotions and feelings. It also doesn't help that this same fantasy life has come about through deceit, lies, and sneaking around. If it were "okay" then why not bring it out into the light for all to see? Thanks for your post. Hey NC, where are you? RDL