I’m currently corresponding with a BS (a woman) who also posts on these boards... I need extra help & assistance from MB veterans for her situation please. This lady started e-mailing me last week because with the time difference it is not always easy for a South African to get a quick answer on MB (we are both South African). I asked her if I can make a callout for help on these boards and she gave me permission to copy and paste her e-mails on this board:

First, here are her details:

Screen name: Enid
Member nr: 34299

BS - Me 58 years old
WH - 58 Years old
M - 38 years
D-Day 15/12/03
NC 01/12/03
In recovery - 13 months

Here is combined post of the e-mails she sent me:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am 14 months past D-day and still have "very black days". I think when you have been married to the same person for as long as I have been married to my H (38 years) it takes a lot to "get over" what they did to you.

In a nutshell, my H became impotent after about 20 years of marriage. . .so we had a sexless life for about 15 years. Then Viagra came on the market and I tried to set aside time once a week just for “us”. He hated taking the tablets and always made excuses so that he didn’t have to take one. What I didn’t know was that his A started just about the time that Viagra came onto the market. His A was with a much younger woman (she was 30 when it started and he was 54). I eventually stopped asking him to take a tablet because “you can take so much rejection and then you stop asking”. Anyway since the A ended I have set aside time every week for SF and he takes a tablet without EVER saying NO like he used to. BUT in the 14 months since the A ended he has never once “offered” to take a tablet. My pain is with the fact that the OW never knew that he took Viagra, so he deliberately had to set up an “appointment” with her for sex and take a tablet of his own free will. I would like him to WANT to take a tablet and have SF with me. I feel that he just doesn’t say no because of what he did and that having SF with me is just a chore he has to perform. On Viagra he struggles to climax and I have managed to make him climax EVERY TIME we have SF over the last year. I don’t think he ever climaxed with the OW. . . I could see and feel his surprise the first time he climaxed with me. Remember we did not have SF for the last two years of his A because I STOPPED asking him to take the Viagra. Now with him climaxing, I would have thought he would be eager to have SF more often but he never brings up the subject and just meekly takes the tablet when I ask him to take it. Do you think I should stop asking him to take one and see what he does after a while? Or should I keep up the weekly “us” time. I feel that I have always done the hard work in our marriage and even though he has had a four year A, I am still doing all the work. . .I don’t LB, I don’t bring up the A. . .I try so hard to be loving even on those days where I feel like I am dying inside.

As to having that conversation with my H AGAIN, I just don’t think I can go there anymore. He knows exactly how I feel. I have told him in a million different ways; it just doesn’t seem to make much difference. My H is very difficult to talk to and has become worse since the A. He and I have never discussed the A fully. He just point blank refuses to discuss it and no matter how I approach the subject we end up in a huge argument. He is one of those people who doesn’t like owning the fact that he has done something wrong and is very much an ostrich. He has always stuck his head in the sand when anything has gone wrong. . .I have always been the one who has had to deal with things. I feel so strongly about broaching the subject with him again that I would rather go without SF for the rest of my life or have an affair myself. My H never had his A because his EN’s weren’t being met, even he acknowledges this, I have always met his EN’s. Strangely enough one of my greatest EN’s is SF and I had to go years without SF (pre Viagra days) and then when Viagra was eventually on the market he immediately started the A, so I went without SF again because he kept refusing to take a tablet for me and in the end I stopped asking. I don’t want to get there again (where I stop asking) and SF stops altogether again. I don’t think I could handle it. I told him that I was never going to go without SF again ever in my life. . . If anyone’s EN’s weren’t being met in our marriage – it was mine. But I loved him so much that I didn’t want to put pressure on him or remind him of his impotence (fool me!!!)

We had SF on Saturday night (at my instigation again) and I gave him a pill at about 8.00 pm and at about 8.30 we had a Jacuzzi and I could literally “feel” his disinterest. I got out of the Jacuzzi quickly and was lying on the bed by the time he got out of the Jacuzzi and he said “what’s wrong?” and I said “I don’t know if I am right but I can literally “feel” your disinterest. He said “you are wrong”. Anyway we then had SF and it was great. . .especially for him. There was no way he was faking the climax he had (like an out of control express train). I honestly work very hard to make him climax because the Viagra apparently makes men a lot less sensitive and I spend about a half and hour just giving him a massage before I even start foreplay. As I said to you before I really don’t think he climaxed with OW, knowing him as well as I do I would have imagined that he got the SF over as quickly as possible in case the Viagra stopped working (it does sometimes). I think that once he had pleasured her, he would pretend to climax and that would have been the end of their SF and yet he stayed in the relationship for four years. I really don’t understand it. As I say, I go to tremendous lengths to get him to climax and when he does it is “over the top”.

We rarely have relationship talks since the A because no matter how I say something, he feels that I am referring to the A and immediately gets defensive and I’ve either got to stop talking to him or we end up in a huge fight. So I have got to the stage where I don’t “go there anymore”. I just think that he doesn’t really love me and has only stayed with me because she was “too young” and had two young children. There is no way my H would saddle himself with two young children, he knows that he wouldn’t be able to sustain that sort of lifestyle. My H likes his home comforts, watching TV and playing golf. He wouldn’t want to spend his old age going to “kids” do’s and having to put up with their problems and I think deep down in his heart he knows that leaving me and marrying someone so much younger with children would never work, so he has opted for (in my opinion) second best and stayed with me because I really don’t cause waves. . .all I want from him is SF once a week. . .which I think he grudgingly gives. OW and her H got divorced just about the same time as my H established NC with her. She apparently was very upset because she wanted my H to divorce me and marry her (this is something the psychiatrist let slip). My H didn’t even tell me they were divorced, I only found out when I phoned her ex H one day pretending to be someone else looking for her work number. He then told me that they were divorced and I don’t know how much the A had to do with their divorce.

He says he loves me, told the psychiatrist that we were both seeing for a time that he loves me and never loved OW. Said OW was just an “ego” thing. I am sure the thing with OW is completely over because according to her ex H she has met someone else and is very happy. My H called her in November last year (nearly ten months after NC had started). He called her at work and the conversation only lasted 40 seconds. That is the only contact that I have found in the whole of the 14 months since NC. I believe she told him that she had met someone else and that he shouldn’t phone her any longer – not sure but am guessing. I have not found one call from her in the last 14 months and she has been seeing this new guy for about 8 months now. I don’t know if it is still going on with the new guy because I spoke to her ex H only once and that was just after I found the call from my H to her work. It was the first (second time actually – the first time he didn’t know it was me) I spoke to her ex H. This time when I spoke to her ex H I told him who I was and he said he always believed that they were “just good friends” and that his ex W had told him that I had found out that they were such “good friends” and that I didn’t want my H to contact her anymore – “me the neurotic, jealous wife”. So she had obviously been pretty open about the “friendship” with her ex H, whereas my H never even told me they were “such good friends”. I found out because I heard a message from her on my H’s phone and I could tell by the intimacy of the message that something was going on. When I tackled my H, he persisted in telling me they were just good friends who only spoke once or twice a month. I eventually got a print-out of my H’s cell phone and found that he was calling her every single day during the week. . .talking for 15 – 20 minutes each time. My H lied for 10 months (and during that time made me feel like I was this mad neurotic woman who was imagining things – one of the things I find very hard to forgive, he had no problem making me feel like I was this daft, neurotic woman and he would look me straight in the eye and lie) before I finally found his hidden stash of Viagra and then he finally confessed that they had been having an affair. Her ex H had no idea that they were having an A, he in fact didn’t seem to give a damn about her and seemed rather happy that he was shot of her.

I am just not sure what to do anymore, but I know that my H is slowly killing my love for him and I am trying so hard to preserve our marriage. We have been together for 38 years. . .its a lifetime with one person but I am so unhappy and I really don’t know what to do about it. Don’t even suggest talking to him because I have tried, getting him to read articles, written him a letter, spoken to him, shown him MB concepts, done the EN questionnaire. . .there is nothing I haven’t tried. He just wants the A buried and never to be spoken about again and I feel like its this big elephant sitting in the lounge between us and I don’t know how to get rid of it.

My H does take my unconditional love for granted and also that he doesn't want to acknowledge that he did anything wrong and just wants things to be the way they were before. He never thought I would find out and now that I have found out he wants to "pretend" that he hasn't done any harm to the marriage. The problem is that he has done tremendous harm both to me and our marriage and I just don't know how to cope. I have never considered plan B because our marriage, finances etc., are so intertwined that it would be a nightmare, plus I don't really want to do plan B. I have also considered doing a bit of a 180 degree. . . I had hoped that with the SF being as good as it has been, he would start "WANTING" to initiate but it just seems that he KNOWS that sooner or later I will initiate so he just doesn't bother. I thought of not initiating SF again after Saturday night and waiting to see what he would do. . .it will probably take a couple of weeks before he realizes that I haven't initiated but again its something that I am scared of doing. . .I did that last time . . ."stopped asking" and he continued with the A from hell. . .so where does that leave me. . .stop asking or continue a bit longer in the hope that he becomes addicted to the "good" SF that he is getting at the moment???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here is the response I send to her today:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Dear Enid

First I want to say - it is a pleasure for me to 'talk' to you and trying to help and it is no trouble at all... Please feel free to post me whenever you feel the need.

You said you need to get to a place where you no longer feel so sad and that your overwhelming feeling right now is "sadness"... Do you have any outside professional person you can talk to (like a IC or pastor)? This can be very helpful. Also, I think it will be a good thing if you can make an appointment with your Medical Practitioner, explain this whole situation to him and see if it is necessary for you to use Anti-Dep's. It is most important now to take care of yourself first... I have a suspicion that you probably suffer from depression - a feeling of "sadness" all the time is a clear indicator of depression. I also want to encourage you to seek God's help and guidance through prayer and through the Script as often as you can. Prayer and reading of spiritual stuff was of so much help to me during the times in my life I felt very, very 'low'. You know, sometimes in situations like this - where we feel there is no hope - God is often our only hope...

I think other than your H's current behavior, the 1) unresolved issues in your M and 2) the unresolved feelings within yourself (because of your H's A) also contribute towards your overwhelming feelings of sadness... Although your H stopped his contact with the OW, it doesn't sound if you and your H are in recovery at all because all efforts to repair this M only comes from you... It sounds if your H has isn't remorseful and repentant about what he has done and he hasn't make any amend in this M or efforts to repair this M. Enid, I also have an idea that your H's unwillingness to talk about the A has also caused you to repress your feelings of hurt, anger and pain towards him and this is not healthy for you at all. Depression is often a result of repressed anger towards someone who has caused us a lot of pain. You never had a chance to express your feelings of pain, anger and hurt towards your H honestly and openly and you never had the chance to work through all of those feelings and this also adds to your feeling of "sadness" all the time...Responsibility can go only one of two places: outward, onto the people who have hurt you, or inward, into yourself. Someone's got to be responsible and so far only you have taken responsibility and your H isn't willing to take responsibility. For your own emotional health and recovery, your H need to acknowledge what happened, take responsibility and show a willingness to make amends in this M... But... I think it's clear to you by now that your H isn't going to change if things proceed like this. Therefore, unfortunately it seems to me that you only have two choices:

1) Either accept that your H is NOT going to change and try to live with the way things currently are e.g. avoid talking about unresolved issues, keep initiating SF each week or live without SF and keep living with a H who doesn't fulfill your EN's.

OR

2) You can take drastic action and give you H an ultimatum e.g. he must either become willing to change and receive help with you for this M, become honest and open about his A (what happened and why it happened), willing to resolve and talk about unresolved issues in this M and willing to take action etc. OR you're going to separate from him if he stays unwilling to change and receive help...

Enid, I know you've said you are not in an financial position to move to plan B (separation from your H) and also that you're not willing to take such a step, but if that is the last option you have to safe this M, I think you need to give it a try on some stage. Maybe not now, but within a year or two you may have the financial resources and emotional strength to take this step. In the meantime you can work on a plan to empower yourself financially and emotionally and prepare yourself in case your H doesn't change and you need to separate from him (move to plan B).

As soon as I have time, I'm going to send a thread about your situation to GQ II and In Recovery as well.

Blessings and prayers,
Suzet</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don’t have any personal experience and advice with the things Enid is struggling with currently and I will appreciate any extra help and advice for her – maybe from people who have been in a similar situation or anyone who can advice...

Thank you in advance, <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Suzet

<small>[ March 07, 2005, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet*

In situations like this where the A is over, withdrawal is over, and things have not changed....I find the 180 strategy very empowering.

One of the things we now know about biochemistry is that NEW EXPERIENCES and CHANGE trigger testosterone production and lust. Scheduling sex is highly unlikely to make it more desirable. If Enid wants to reinfuse her marriage...she must change the status quo. The 180 is very good for that...and it doesn't put the BS in the role of "doormat" or "rejectee" the way that begging and pleading, and having relationship talks will do. Do you have those guidelines? If not....I'll post them for you.

Enid....with all the work you've been doing...you've still given your husband the power to change your life....take it back! If the same strategy has gotten you the same dismal results...stop using something that isn't working. Throw a cog in the wheels....it might shake up more than just the marriage...it might improve the marriage bed.

Blessings!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by star*fish:
<strong>In situations like this where the A is over, withdrawal is over, and things have not changed....I find the 180 strategy very empowering.

One of the things we now know about biochemistry is that NEW EXPERIENCES and CHANGE trigger testosterone production and lust. Scheduling sex is highly unlikely to make it more desirable. If Enid wants to reinfuse her marriage...she must change the status quo. The 180 is very good for that...and it doesn't put the BS in the role of "doormat" or "rejectee" the way that begging and pleading, and having relationship talks will do. Do you have those guidelines? If not....I'll post them for you.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Star*fish, thanks for posting... I don't know what the 180 strategy is. I see Enid mentioned it in her post, but I don't have an idea how it works. Please post the guidelines of the 180 strategy to this thread - I will appreciate it!

Do you think the advice I've posted to her regarding separation is out of line? Is there something like 'plan B' for a situation like hers where the A ended but where the FWS is not willing to change or make amends in the M? Or is this where 180 strategy comes in?

As you can see I really want to help enid, but I also don't want to give her advice which may be inappropriate or not helpfull for her specific situation (that's why I started this thread)...

Thanks! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Suzet

<small>[ March 07, 2005, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>

Suzet,

Plan B is used to end affairs, addiction, abuse or neglect. I would say that Enid's situation falls under neglect. But for so many folks, the financial independence for plan B is lacking....so a good interim strategy while trying to achieve the ability to use Plan B if necessary is the 180 plan. As I said....it saves the spouse from becoming needy or clingy and doesn't create a situation where the WS is getting all their needs filled and the BS gets nothing.

A thought all of your advice was excellent, except for this one little paragraph and I'll explain why so that you don't feel as though you messed up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You can take drastic action and give you H an ultimatum e.g. he must either become willing to change and receive help with you for this M, become honest and open about his A (what happened and why it happened), willing to resolve and talk about unresolved issues in this M and willing to take action etc. OR you're going to separate from him if he stays unwilling to change and receive help...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Plan B can SEEM like an ultimatim to some folks...but ultimata imply punishment: "do this or else" It's important that if Plan B is going to work...that it isn't anything like an ultimatim or the WS feels manipulated and obligated...which helps nothing. Plan B is not an effort to control the WS or neglectful spouse. In fact...it does the exact opposite. It's not about what HE does, it's about what we intend to do. It let's go of the outcome....not demands a solution. It is calm and detached...which few ultimata are. The message is clear: I still love you. I can't control you. I need to separate from you so that the destruction of our love doesn't continue. The door is open....let me know when you want to walk through. In the meantime, I'm going to move forward with every part of my life except dating.

So now onto the guidelines for the 180. There are GUIDELINES...I say that because not all of the them may apply, because the entire point of a 180 strategy is CHANGE. If you are telling them you love them...stop saying it. If you not saying it...start saying it. So it's important to look at this list and apply it to each situation rather than follow it exactly. But this a good starting place....and probably most of it will apply:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. No frequent phone calls.
3. Do not point out good points in marriage.
4. Do not follow him around the house.
5. Do not encourage talk about the future.
6. Do not ask for help from family members.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
8. Do not buy gifts.
9. Do not schedule dates together.
10. Do not spy on spouse.
11. Do not say "I Love You".
12. Act as if you are moving on with your life.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc.
15. When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words.
16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING.
17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing.
19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. Show him someone she would want to be around.
20. All questions about marriage should be put on
hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while).
21. Never lose your cool.
22. Don't be overly enthusiiastic.
23. Do not argue about how she feels (it only makes her feelings stronger).
24. Be patient.
25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you.
26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than anywords you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.
31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse.
32. Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because she is hurting and scared.
33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.
34. Do not backslide from your hardearned changes </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Enid...Make a commitment to doing these things for no less than 21 days....and 3 months would be about optimum. If there is a change for the better even small changes at first....keep doing as long as it's working. During that time...get all your ducks in a row for a Plan B in case you need it.

Hope this helps. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LOL shucks....I'm the only one you DIDN't call out and I'm the one who answered. How come those other guys haven't weighed in???

Cause you handled it star....

I guess I have most concerns about enids reluctance/refusal of thing she WON"T do...while wanting change...

Not quite sure how to make things happen...
you know the old you gotta throw a stone to get the pool to ripple....syaing

Don’t even suggest talking to him because I have tried, getting him to read articles, written him a letter, spoken to him, shown him MB concepts, done the EN questionnaire. . .there is nothing I haven’t tried.

and yet we have her saying...

I have never considered plan B because our marriage, finances etc., are so intertwined that it would be a nightmare, plus I don't really want to do plan B.

so what is enid willing to do...

I agree with star about the 180's with some radical apparant absentness from his life...

a trip without him if that would be unusual...

but I think Enid needs to go to plan B...
needs to untangle herself from the perception that their marriage in untangable...
and make a move.....

ARK

<small>[ March 07, 2005, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Hi ark....LOL...let's hope I handled it right then hahahhahah.

I agree that enid probably needs a Plan B...but Plan B takes....well....planning. Financial, emotional, mechanical planning. In the interim...I have seen the 180 help the BS keep their sanity. Plan A can be sooooooooooooo exhausting and if it becomes entrenched...actually dangerous to the marriage.

Enid....don't end up the category of people who drop anchor in Plan A. Women should use it for three months before trying something else. And PLEASE....don't complain about no change if you are unwilling to move to a higher risk strategy. I'm giving you something else to do...but it really is in an effort to buy you some time to PREPARE.

(((((((((((((((((enid))))))))))))))

yep...
take some time to do some 180's and use the time to line all the duckies up ...

ARK

^^^Bump for enid^^^ (Thanks Ark^ and Star*fish <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Thanks Starfish and Ark and also Suzet who took the time and trouble to post my "problem".

First of all "we need to schedule SF" no matter who schedules it. My H is totally impotent and never "physically" feels like SF. . .so even if he mentally feels like SF, it has to be scheduled and pre-planned because he has to take a viagra beforehand. We had not had spontaneous SF in nearly 20 years. . .gosh what I wouldn't give for spontaneous SF.

Anyway, I have been toying with the 180 degree idea for a while now. On Saturday evening when we (or should I say me) scheduled SF, I could almost feel his reluctance and it really p$%#ed me off, so I decided that the next time we had SF it would be at his instigation. And let me tell you we had great SF so I am leaving him with the "memory" or really good SF.

I have also not phoned him from work once this week, I normally phone him everyday and he phones me everyday. Normally at the end of our conversation I will say "I love you" and then he will say "I love you too". I haven't said one "I love you" since last week and neither has he. Like I say, I have always got to do everything first. This time I am not going to do it first, he will say the next "I love you" or it will not get said at all.

So this is me trying the 180 degree. . .hope I can hang in there and do it. I am sick and tired of being the one who does all the work in the marriage when I have never done anything to damage the marriage. He is the one who has damaged the marriage and its time he did some damage control.

Thank you all again for your input. I will keep you posted on how the 180 degree goes.

Enid, please click on the link below,
"Must read; CarolKh's radical 180 approach"

While her story is different from your own, the appraoch she takes can be used by everyone.

Hope it helps you.

jd

Enid,

I am sorry he is treating you in such an unloving manner. I think your focus though is in the wrong place.

You need to concentrate on making yourself better. He needs to do the same. As long as you are there fixing his mess for him, he has no incentive to fix himself.

He has shown that if he really wants to, he can be attentive as needed and enjoy it. So you should NOT allow him to have even a 1/2 hearted R with you.

You deserve better.

Think about that point and work towards what you deserve. If he can't do it, then you need to move forward. You can't be his crutch for him. He will never be your man as long as you are his crutch.

JMHO,
L.

Thanks jd, I read Carol's post and found it most interesting. It would be difficult for me to do all the things she did - she was separated from her H at the time but I can certainly implement a few of her ideas. I will read it again and give it some thought.

I hate playing games. . but if that is what it takes to get my H to sit up and listen then that is what I am going to do.

Orchid, I found it interesting that you refer to me as being my H's crutch. It really hit home, I agree with you, I have always been his crutch. Whatever happens in our lives, its me who cleans up the mess. . .well this time its his mess and its time he started cleaning up his act.

Thank you all for your replies and help. I will keep you posted on how the 180 degrees goes, it has been in progress for three days now and frankly I don't think he has noticed a thing but time will tell.

Enid,

Do not get discouraged that your H has not seemed to have noticed anything yet. Whatever you try is going to take time. This will be extremely difficult for you to follow thru with because of the fact that SF is a huge EN for you. Stay strong and show H that you will not give in. He must take action now.

Go outdoors and enjoy the wonders of life.

Good Luck

jd

PS. Do not look at the approach as a game. I would suggest, in fact, that you take no action whereby you are not completely ready to change YOUR life. Even if that does in fact mean leaving H behind. MB nor the 180 Appraoch is about changing only the WS, they have everything to do with changing yourself as well.

<small>[ March 08, 2005, 05:06 AM: Message edited by: jdmac1 ]</small>

I agree with the others enid. THIS is NOT a GAME....and if you look at it as game playing, it will be manipulative and won't work. This isn't about giving your husband the cold shoulder, punishing him or making sure he says "I love you" first.

Now here's the other thing....stop looking at sex as just intercourse, and you won't have to schedule it. As you said...he was motivated to have sex with the OW....and took the viagra on his own. Why did he do that? BECAUSE....he was thinking about sex. What makes people think of sex? Lust. What causes lust? Testosterone. He still has it enid...just because he's ED doesn't mean he never lusts. Right now, you're feeling as though he never lusts for YOU...that's why change is so important. Things even like vacations and other new places fuel chemical changes.

Concentrate on your own changes. How fit are you? How put together are you? How independently happy are you? Do you work...could you....if you wanted more financial freedom?

According to him since the impotence started, he has never had that feeling of "lust". He says he never had it for her and he has never had it for me. He just doesn't get those feelings anymore. I keep hoping that he will but it doesn't seem likely. He says he sometimes "thinks" about sex but his body never "wants" sex. He says the A with the OW was purely an ego thing. . .she was so much younger than him and wanted to have sex with him. . so he obliged. He says that he never climaxed with her and I actually believe that because it takes an awful lot to make him climax..and the first time he climaxed with me after his A I could actually see and feel his surprise.

I don't just think of sex as intercourse, I think of it as a connection and an offering of love between my husband and myself. Prior to his impotence, we had a wonderful sex life and it was this connection and affirmation of our love that I miss so much. I think a lot of his problems stem from the ED but again its not something he wishes to talk about. He has seen many doctors and has had therapy for it but nothing helps.

I will try not to think of the 180 degree thing as a "game", I will try and think of it as improving myself and my self image. You have to remember that we have been married for 38 years. . .that is a lifetime and I have never had to be anything else but myself in all those years. I was a loving, caring, good wife and mother and when I look back I try and find things that I could have changed in myself but while I am not saying that I was perfect, I cannot think of a single instance when we were every unhappy together. We had a great marriage!!! Even he admits this. I have asked him what I can do to change and he says that it was never about me and our marriage, that he was stupid and egotistical. I don't know if this is true but its what he said on one of the rare occassions when we did talk about the A.

In fact that is a pretty good question for any men who suffer from ED. . . do you have feelings of "lust". My H says he doesn't ever have bodily feelings of lust, didn't even have for the OW who was half his age. Do you think he is lying to me?

enid - not knowing anything about the two of you or your relationship with Christ, I will stay away from "religious" comments and observations.

I also have read about what you WANT and what you DESIRE, but very little about your husband or what he wants and desires.

Sorry if this sounds very cold and blunt, but I read a lot of "all about Enid" and very little about any of your husband's needs.

So, let's try to look at one thing that might "kill two birds with one stone."

At 58 it is HIGHLY likely that your husband's TESTOSTERONE level is extemely low. (in fact it was probably YEARS(30's and 40's) ago) that this began to be a problem.)

His Testosterone level should be checked, and if it is "below normal" he can take testosterone supplements. Enid, Viagra does NOTHING for "desire." All Viagra affects is the physical side of impotence, but not the mental or hormonal side.

Testosterone IS what gives men a "sex drive," as well as women. It's just that the level in women is usually very low normally. It's WHY you hear that men are "ready at the drop of hat" and "men are visually stimulated easily," whereas women need time to "build up" to the emotional stated needed for intercourse.

If I were to bet, I'd bet that your husband's impotence and desire problem is primarily twofold. One, a below normal testosterone level, probably as low as most women's normal level. Two, a mental thing with how he "sees" you, definitely emotionally and possibly physically as well. Throw into that guilt over the affair, recovery related problems, etc. and an "erection killer" is a high likelihood for his mental status and thoughts concerning sex.

Another thing about impotence in men is that MOST of it is because of what goes on between the ears. Some impotence IS related to physical problems like cancer, low testosterone, etc. But most of it is a refusal to "let go" and simply enjoy the encounter.

Negative reinforcement is a major problem. What was once "taken for granted" becomes "broken" when the first instance of impotence strikes. Then it's very easy to get too focused on "technique" and the "methods," and not simply letting the feelings of enjoyment flow. Each "failed" attempt reinforces the problem and causes more doubts to form and takes the mental concentration to "no erection" rather than enjoyment of the sensations and the partner.

So the first order of business is a Medical checkup to eliminate or confirm medical and physical problems.

The second order of business is how YOU help the mental side. That, I'm not sure you are ready to do, but it is something YOU are going to have to do as a couple if you are to "overcome" this. Enid, you need to remember that your husband probably places GREAT emphasis on sexual function as part of how he "sees" himself as a man. The easiest way to deal with a problem in this area is to AVOID it and simply choose to be a eunuch and avoid all the embarrasment and "punishments" from a wife who is not willing to do whatever is necessary to help. Impotence, in most cases, is a COUPLES problem, not an individual's problem (unless it's physical in orgin).

"For better or for worse, in sickness and in health....." it all runs together in any long- term marriage.

He has had many medical check ups for his problem and apparently there is nothing wrong with his testosterone levels. This has been checked a number of times. . .in fact I think it was one of the first things that was checked.

I constantly worry about his needs. We have done the EN questionnaire which I might add he did very reluctantly. He said it was a load of rubbish but did it for me. His biggest need was for affection. I am very affectionate towards him and have always been.

I will tell you what I honestly think. I think that during our marriage my H has been somewhat of a serial cheater. I have no positive proof but there were many times during our marriage that I suspected he was having an affair. He has very strong principles and has a high regard for his own integrity and honesty BUT he also has this huge ego that constantly needs stroking. I have often wondered if his own personality hasn't caused the ED. . .he wanted to have A's but when he did he felt so guilty about them that eventually he "created" the problem for himself in his mind. During this last A he suffered very badly from depression to the point where he kept talking about suicide. Since the A has ended the depression has lifted and he no longer feels suicidal. I believe that these two personalities within him create major problems for him. . .the one who wants to be the philanderer and the one who has this high regard for his own honesty and integrity. I think this is also what stops him talking about the A. . .he has major problems in admitting that he is wrong or that he has done something damaging. Does this make sense to you?

I love my H dearly and would do anything for him. All I have ever wanted in life is his happiness. Neither of us are spiritual and maybe that is what is lacking in our lives. I really don't know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He has had many medical check ups for his problem and apparently there is nothing wrong with his testosterone levels. This has been checked a number of times. . .in fact I think it was one of the first things that was checked.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, if this is correct, then the problem is not the plumbing, unless there are other physical problems. The problem is psychological and emotional.

You think he might be thinking more about his own "mortality?"

Have, or are, either of you thinking about eternity? Or are we still stuck in the "is this all there is?" sort of thinking?

enid, if he's healthy and testosterone levels are up, then having "no desire" is NOT normal. Testosterone IS what gives men that "desire" whether they want it or not. He is choosing the "mental eunuch" route and you need to find out through gentle and loving discussion with him just why he is afraid of, or reluctant to engage in, sex....or at least sex with you. These answers may hurt, but you cannot let that show or cause you to react with negative comments.

This sort of impotence is almost always a "couple" related thing. It took 2 to get this way and it will take 2 to get the ship righted.

God bless.