Hello folks. I have an honest question I would like to ask and wonder if some of you might give me some input. This is a subject that I have been struggling with lately. Unfortunataly with some my other past threads I am **hoping** that people here don't get all defensive and let this thread turn into a bash. So here goes.

I have been reading alot lately, and despite my recovery I am still troubled by some concepts of recovery, an in particular how we as BS can ever truly "admire" and "respect" our WS FULLY again. Now, I sometimes wonder whether my inability to "get this" hampered any chance (no matter how small) I ever had at recovering my marriage. I wonder sometimes if it is me who is "flawed".

While I know that people make mistakes, yada yada yada, I just don't see how I could ever in the "true sense" of the word admire and respect my WW again and actually want her to mother my children someday. This is something that I could never get past. I just can't imagine it. I read the many stories here of Wayward Spouses who have betrayed their BS in the worst possible ways (OC, Bankruptcy, STD's) and somehow "recovery" is made. I want to TRULY know from these BS who this happens to, do they reaaly 100% forgive this and find admiration, etc in their WS again. Do they really believe in their heart of hearts that their WS are great Fathers, etc.. and want for their children to emulate them (obviously I am not talking about the affair behavior), but in the general sense. I have come a long way in understanding what happened to my marriage and am really "healing", but I know that I am just "not there yet". I still feel alot of disgust when I read about the continued betrayals that BS go through here and still just find it hard to respect a BS when they continue to "accept" it in some plight to "honor their vows". What is wrong with me? Why can't I see what so many of you see in forgiving? Is it because I never embraced the concept of "alien behavior"?

I am on call tonight and was sitting in the MD lounge surfing the net, and started reading the past Pregancy/Other Child boards (don't ask me why, I have no idea) and I was just left with ths utter sense of disgust. I was actually happy when I read that some of these men who fathered the OC had to pay child support. I find disgust in the fact that there was such a rallying cry for No Contact with these other innocent children. Am I some horrible human being that I found myself almost symphathising with the OW who had an OC by the MM with regards to CS and contact? I know that I have no business rendering an opinion on this topic, but I am doing it anyway (knowing full well I will probably feel the wrath of those who disagree with me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

I think maybe it is just me who is different from most people here who have healed and are in "great" recovery. I am in such a better place in my life now than I was, but am stalled in my recovery now I think. I think that is why I have started posting again, and have let loose a number of 2 X 4's this week. My anger is resurfacing for my XWW and I am displacing that anger on the innocent BS here.

I really have such an incredibly hard time TRULY forgiving the WS. I read the horrible devestating stories of those on the P/OC board and part of me wants to scream to the poor women on that board : "IT WAS YOUR WS WHO MADE THAT CHILD, AND BETRAYED YOU, STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THE OW TRapping him HIM, AND COMPLAINinG ABOUT CS". I feel horrible that I can't symphathize with the BS in that situation. WHY ??? I don't even understand myself.

I am a betrayed spouse, and should rightfully be on the BS "side" but I sometimes think my anger still at my WW biases me against WS on here....and it usually the WS of Betrayed Spouses here NOT on the WS who post themselves. I can't figure this out. These poor women who's husbands cheated on them and fathered other children and left the family in financial ruin and in my mind I cannot find the compassion for them to see past what the WS did.

I guess this post is going nowhere. These are just some of my musings. I have been on a "roll" in recovery, but I guess things just have seemed to stall for me. My anger is resurfacing again, and I hate feeling like this. The anger is very taxing on me. It really is. I don't know what to think. I hope this call weekend ends without any serious $hit. I am tired from being up last night with some drunken idiots who thought it would be a good idea to bash each others heads open with some beer bottles. Mindless morons casuing a "trauma alert" at 3 am for this nonsense. Where is the compassion ? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ......and there is still 21 hours of the shift left....ughhh

Thank You for reading this babble.

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

lemonman,

I don't know if I can answer, but I can say I have been in similar shoes. I take one week of on-call (IT, not medical) every month, and it just gives me too much time to think.

I think about my WW, about how I can't see my YD as much as I'd like, etc.

Maybe some of these people who find recovery, still manage to love their WS have been given, or have learned, how to love like Jesus loves. Hating the sin, but still loving the sinner.

It's a tough job, and I can't say I'm anywhere near able to do that.

So I just want you to know I've read your musings, and many of them resonate with me.

T

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong>
I have been reading alot lately, and despite my recovery I am still troubled by some concepts of recovery, an in particular how we as BS can ever truly "admire" and "respect" our WS FULLY again. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I can truly admire and respect is a person who admitted his poor, tragic judgement, made amends, showed great remorse, and became a better person and spouse as a result. My H is not the same person he was when he committed his adultery. I think it shows great character for a person to face their shortcomings and overcome them. I have much respect for a person who has the courage to change and the courage to face their demons head on.

LemonMan, I am alot like you in that I don't have much patience for scumbags, but I do take notice of a person who has the courage to change and who shows great remorse. I think that I have an obligation to do my best to try and forgive such a person.

I truly do respect and admire my H now and if you would have read my posts 4 years ago when I first came here, you would be shocked to read that. I routinely referred to him as a "low man" and a "scumbag." Others around here used to get on me all the time about it. But, I meant it. [ask JL, Resilient, WAT, BrambleRose or Faith1, I was scathing]

But I also mean it today when I say I have the greatest respect and admiration for my H. He earned every bit of it by demonstrating a strength of character I did not know he possessed.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong> lemonman,

I don't know if I can answer, but I can say I have been in similar shoes. I take one week of on-call (IT, not medical) every month, and it just gives me too much time to think.

I think about my WW, about how I can't see my YD as much as I'd like, etc.

Maybe some of these people who find recovery, still manage to love their WS have been given, or have learned, how to love like Jesus loves. Hating the sin, but still loving the sinner.

It's a tough job, and I can't say I'm anywhere near able to do that.

So I just want you to know I've read your musings, and many of them resonate with me.

T </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank You for the response. I think these long call weekends give me too much time to think and then my mind goes off. I don't know, it is something that I will need to "work through". My personality is to just want to "fix" what is wrong. It is just not that simple. I have done an Abdominal Aortic Aneursym repair skin to skin in 94 minutes, yet I am still struggling with this $hit over 8 months later. WTF ?

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still feel alot of disgust when I read about the continued betrayals that BS go through here and still just find it hard to respect a BS when they continue to "accept" it in some plight to "honor their vows". What is wrong with me? Why can't I see what so many of you see in forgiving? Is it because I never embraced the concept of "alien behavior"?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure why you wouldn't find that digusting? That IS disgusting as far as I am concerned. There is no "honor" in "accepting" the unacceptable and tolerating serial cheating. Forgiveness is only warranted when one repents, otherwise it is a useless gesture. If a spouse continually commits adultery, that means they haven't repented. [turned away]

For me, repeat adultery is a deal breaker. I wouldn't ever be interested in taking back such a spouse. I would be too disgusted and would move on. It took me years to get over my disgust and nausea at my H's one affair, he wouldn't get a second chance.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong>
I have been reading alot lately, and despite my recovery I am still troubled by some concepts of recovery, an in particular how we as BS can ever truly "admire" and "respect" our WS FULLY again. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I can truly admire and respect is a person who admitted his poor, tragic judgement, made amends, showed great remorse, and became a better person and spouse as a result. My H is not the same person he was when he committed his adultery. I think it shows great character for a person to face their shortcomings and overcome them. I have much respect for a person who has the courage to change and the courage to face their demons head on.

LemonMan, I am alot like you in that I don't have much patience for scumbags, but I do take notice of a person who has the courage to change and who shows great remorse. I think that I have an obligation to do my best to try and forgive such a person.

I truly do respect and admire my H now and if you would have read my posts 4 years ago when I first came here, you would be shocked to read that. I routinely referred to him as a "low man" and a "scumbag." Others around here used to get on me all the time about it. But, I meant it. [ask JL, Resilient, WAT, BrambleRose or Faith1, I was scathing]

But I also mean it today when I say I have the greatest respect and admiration for my H. He earned every bit of it by demonstrating a strength of character I did not know he possessed. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, Melodylane, I think it just boils down to the fact that my wife never made "those changes" or faced "her demons". I sometimes (although admittedly very seldom) wonder if it was just me who never gave her the chance or time to "face" the demons. I really believed I did all that I could. I still do, it is just I am left sometimes struggling with it. The anger still is there. I know that for me to come as far as I have come, I needed to do what I did, but I just want to be "healed" and I know that can't "just happen". My struggles of today are a necessary evil for me.

Thanks for the response.

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM, are you 8 months out from your divorce?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> LM, are you 8 months out from your divorce? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO, the affair, and it is more like 10 months. Isn't it pathetic how time flies? Divorce is "fresh" essentially.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MelodyLane:
<strong> LM, are you 8 months out from your divorce? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NO, the affair, and it is more like 10 months. Isn't it pathetic how time flies? Divorce is "fresh" essentially. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LM, from my experience around here, you are probably at the climax of your recovery. It seems that with many, the 8-10 month mark is the hardest. The shock has worn off and anger sets in. But, it is the beginning of the end and just gets better after this.

Lemonman....

You really are deep......

You are in the medical profession.....how do you feel about people who were once addicts, or alcoholics, who have gone thru withdrawl, recovery, and have finally made a better life for themselves - against the odds.

I have respect for them, and I admire them.

If my WH ever decides to turn himself around, I could one day respect and admire him for doing that. He would have earned it. He will HAVE to earn it.

Everyone is different.....everyone heals differently. And you must do it your way.

I support that.

K

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by k72172:
<strong> Lemonman....

You really are deep......

You are in the medical profession.....how do you feel about people who were once addicts, or alcoholics, who have gone thru withdrawl, recovery, and have finally made a better life for themselves - against the odds.

I have respect for them, and I admire them.

If my WH ever decides to turn himself around, I could one day respect and admire him for doing that. He would have earned it. He will HAVE to earn it.

Everyone is different.....everyone heals differently. And you must do it your way.

I support that.

K </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, ofcourse I have respect for them....But at what costs does this come at to the BS who suffer at the hands of the WS while they "battle the odds"?

K72, please do not take personally what I am about to say to you. I really sometimes feel such contempt for your WH for what he has done to you. He has physically abused you (repeatedly), cheated on you umpteenth times, and recieved a thousand "last chances" from you. Yet, you still love him and I KNOW for a fact would welcome a recovery if he wanted it. You know this and I know this.

What I struggle with, is how you and I can be so completely far apart on this, and yet we are both Betrayed Spouses who have suffered at the hands of a WS actions. While you see hope that your husband "will turn his life around", I see a scumbag heathen who deserves a frigging terminal illness. Now, I know that my thoughts on this are irriational, but you are the exact person who I want to help me with this. You have suffered many false recoveries, and have suffered a great deal over this, yet you are here fighting for your marriage still. I honestly see what you are doing as "weak and dysfunctional" and not "forgiving" ,"strong" and "fighting for your marriage". This is the quandry I am in. Should I have been more like you?, and perhaps have saved my marriage. These are the thoughts that plague me today. Thank you for partcipating on my thread.

LM

Hi Lemonman - I think if my WH had dropped his OW like a hot brick and had embraced his family whole-heartedly, we might have stood a chance. I do believe in second chances. I wasn't prepared to let him continue contact and make a mockery of our marriage. Maybe I will have a permanent chip on my shoulder over all of this. For me it is just over a year since DDay. I never saw remorse or an effort to make things up to me; only self-pity. He is much nicer to me now that we are living apart. He couldn't even talk to me before. I am also amazed at the level of tolerance shown by some BS's here. I think a lot of people are just too scared to stand up for themselves and I don't believe they recover wonderful marriages (although some lucky souls do). WS's who go on to have 3,4 and more affairs are basically abusing their partners and their marriage vows.

LM,
I am very intrigued by all this.

But first... we (you and I) had a little tiff a couple weeks ago, which was my fault, and I'll take this opportunity to apologize -- I was in "protector" mode and I overreacted.

Have you ever noticed that lots of people here seem to relate to -- and very much appreciate -- what you say, but at the same time you represent... an "extreme" point of view, as regards MB from the BS's side?

You're an outlier in the MB/BS equation... or, maybe... you just speak the truth. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Said another way... how 'bout the alter ego of the "average" BS... I have you pegged as exactly that (a compliment).

Case in point, condensed to just a few words: I spent a lot of time/energy/emotions trying and/or hoping to get my WW back. All of it accompanied by a helluva lot of self-doubt -- why/how could I want this person back?

Your persona here radiates confidence -- including confidence that you did the right thing by letting your WW go, and letting her go in the manner and timeframe that was right for you.

Between the lines that you write, I've sensed regret... that perhaps you let go too soon. I've sensed your disdain for the BS that hangs on longer than you think they should... but that disdain may be born out of... regret that you didn't do the same(?)

No DJ's here... trust me on that one.
I, for one, wish I had the strength that you did, and let my WW go long before now.

Where do you think your self-doubt is coming from?

Lemonman,

Don't think I've ever posted to you before, though I've appreciated your posts and your story.

Like your WS, mine never pulled his head out of his oubliette. His behavior has been disgusting, cruel and insensitive. I've been in Plan B forever -- a very good one, though in a small community I see him constantly with OW. (And yes, you can stay in Plan B during divorce proceedings.) He has at least two sexual addictions that I know of, is on prozac, rage freak, etc. And that's just the beginning.

Sometimes I still experience rage in my thoughts -- the wish to tell him off, call him names, etc. But deep in my heart of hearts, I know he is his own worst punishment. This isn't just a sop. I look at him, with his crazy lesbian OW, and he strikes me as what is known as the "self-damning, self-destroying" man. My angry thoughts are nothing compared with his internal state -- and what's going to happen to him in the future. The handwriting is all over the walls.

That makes it easier to "forgive." When you lose the idea that the WS is better off, having a good time, getting away with something. He's not getting away with anything -- no matter how many enablers he has. And it's just plain sad. At this point, Plan B is protecting me from someone I don't even want to know anymore.

I don't think there's any question who's better off -- my financial predicament notwithstanding. Maybe you'll get to the same kind of place.

(P.S. I'm one of the ones who did everything I could, in the face of a really nasty situation. I don't regret it -- because my self-esteem was based on my commitment, not on his treatment of me. And Plan B was a welcome relief.)

<small>[ March 12, 2005, 11:10 PM: Message edited by: A.M.Martin ]</small>

LM,
I don't think that I can necessarily address your questions about forgiveness, admiration, respect, etc. I do, however, want to support you in your concerns about WSs who parent a child and choose to have no contact. My xWS had an affair that resulted in the OW getting pregnant. I, of course, was devestated. The OW was six months pregnant when I finally confirmed that there was an affair. My xWS said that he would like to reconcile but realized he could never ask me to accept a child from an OW. At the same time, he told me that he would never abandon a child that was his. He said that the child was innocent and deserved to have his father in his life in some capacity. I totally agreed. That is when some respect for my xWS came back onboard!

The OC was born one month before our divorce was final. I hadn't heard about MarriageBuilders at that time. The baby was born with Down Syndrome. Many men would have abandoned the baby at that point. My xWS didn't. He felt that he was needed all the more to "protect" and love his son. Another piece of respect came back onboard.

He and the OW moved in together after the birth of their child. Their son will be 3 in June of this year. My xWS had still expressed interest in reconciling, but was concerned for his son's wellbeing. The OW was 21 when the OC was born, had no consistent parenting as a child, was "immature, short-tempered, and self-centered" (per my xWS). Duh, what a surprise! lol Anyhow, he didn't think that he could ever get full custody as she wasn't overtly abusive. He didn't feel that it would be safe for their son to be with her when he wasn't around. This was especially true because of how young their son was and his having special need. Another piece of respect on board.

Some could think the xWS was giving me a line of s@$%! Maybe he was, but his choices seemed consistent with what I had known of him at one time. It was also consistent with my belief that every child deserves to be loved and cared for regardless of the circumstances of their birth.

And yes, I met the OC when he was months old. I wasn't sure I could handle that, but wanted to see if I could. The minute I held that little guy in my arms, fed him a bottle, and watched him fall asleep in my arms, I fell in love with him! To be totally honest, if it meant me living without my xWS or that precious little boy living without his daddy, better me. We had no children together, so I didn't have the big worry of the impact on our children.

I have no respect for the OW having an affair with my xWS in that she knew he was married. It was my WS, however, that was married, not her. He broke his vows, not her. I hold him to the higher level of accountability by far. I hold him accountable for not using birth control regardless of what she said about her use.

I think that "anger" is one of those fricken stages of grief! Especially if the other person never recognized or attempted to acknowledge their "wrong doings" and "make amends"...Yes, like in Recovery from addiction. It looks like you're coming up on an "anniversary" date (one year) of D-day. Those are classic times for emotions to be stirred back up for anything that has had a strong emotional impact. I'd rather skip some of the "stages of grief" and get right to "acceptance" so I don't have to hurt so much. It doesn't seem to work that way! I'm tired of his choices having any impact on my life! I like to think that I'm an independent woman who is in control of my life. What has happened shakes up that belief a bit.

I think that we have different capacities, desires, timing to forgive. I think that at times, I have been too quick to forgive someone just to keep the peace. Perhaps it would be healthier for me to not be so forgiving so quickly. For others who tend to hold on to grudges forever and ever, they might be healthier by working on forgiveness earlier on.

I have read your history. Some might say that when you stepped in and operated on the OM...saving his life...you had already stepped into some aspect of "forgiveness". Others questioned how you could have possibly done what you did under the circumstances. I'm not sure if any of us know exactly how we can do what may seem impossible to others. I'm not sure that we're all expected to do the same thing as another.

Here I am blabbering on and I don't even have the excuse of being "on call"!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

LemonMan:


I of all people have always respected your thoughts and feelings, Damn I wish I was Married to you and I'm a dude.


But all kidding aside, your point on this thread hits home for me, because the words you speak are the words I'm living right now on my Joint thread with my FWW. It's a ahrd process that takes time and effort on both parties, Maybe I feel better because I was able to get my wife to end her A in the time frame I set. I went to Plan B just like I thought I would and I stayed in that Plan until I was ordered to let her return. Now this may seem unfair but I have to work with what I have.

I do have one question for you...


Is your Wife still with OM? and are you Divorced now?


Ok two questions.....LOL

LM,

Not sure I have posted to you before. I generally hang out down under on the IR board. Anyway, sum up my story.

First husband had a long term affair and was probably the last of several affairs. Don't know for sure though, since he commited suicide before I had sorted it all out. Sad to say I would have probably taken him back during the first few months of our seperation. But towards the end of the divorce, no. He had gone to the point of no return even if he had lived, I could have never been his wife again.

My second husband had a short term affair last year. I was ready to walk out on him immediately. Had papers in hand and had called a divorce attorney. He was immediately remorseful and dropped ow with no question. He basically plan A'd me, I think since I had one foot out the door for some time.

First husband declared love for ow, married her even. That was a deal breaker.

Second husband never said he loved ow. If he ever cheats again, I will be divorced. I won't live through a third time.

LM, I think everyone has a different bottom line, a different point that is a deal breaker.

And there are times I shake my head at why anyone would put up with some stuff around here, I am not them. I really think at times if some BS would just draw a gigantic line in the sand there WS might just get it. But I can't live their life for them I guess.

And you know you may never know if you could have put your marriage back together. You may have to just live with that. I don't know. We all make choices and we may never know where different choices 'could have' led. Perhaps you spared yourself further pain. Perhaps you lost a chance to save your marriage.

And may I suggest that when anger shows up like you are describing, it is usually time for another level of healing.

Lastly LM, my ex-husband died in 96 and it took a few years but I was able to work through forgiveness. You can too. Don't forget that important work, if for no other reason than you don't want it to poison your other friendships or future relationships.

Take care and nice to meet you.

Tiggy

LM, a real short reply from me ( for a change ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

YES I expect to recover respect and admiration for Squid again. She did a terrible thing, but is coming to realise that and is working with all the tools she has to make up for it.

Throw in the real hard time she's having right now (Mom dying & other stuff) I couldn't reasonably ask more of her 8 months aftr d-day.

However IF she wasn't discomforting herself in support of our recovering M, and persisted with this, I wouldn't respect or forgive her. Such is not respectABLE behaviour.

FInally like you I get increasingly angry at the abuse some BS suck up from their WS and do NOTHING ABOUT IT !. This too is not respectabe behaviour IMO.

It almost physically hurts me to read such here.

Cheers LM !

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
I have been reading alot lately, and despite my recovery I am still troubled by some concepts of recovery, an in particular how we as BS can ever truly "admire" and "respect" our WS FULLY again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I fully understand your thoughts, they mirror my own. I believe that they are a manifestation of our scientifically trained mind; we wish to analyze and understand the situation logically. Analytical thinking, being concretely bound, is not happy with the subjective aspect of life, so it becomes hard for us to qualitate when a "good" person who does "bad" things becomes a "bad person". It is easy to label those who are dead as good or bad after reviewing their actions in life, but how does one qualify a person still existing, who has the capacity for change and the potential for good? This is the realm of hope and hope is not tangible, not quantifiable, it is completely abstract, something you don't like to bet your life on -but we all do.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While I know that people make mistakes, yada yada yada, I just don't see how I could ever in the "true sense" of the word admire and respect my WW again and actually want her to mother my children someday. This is something that I could never get past. I just can't imagine it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You admire and respect the character of a person, essentially the actions they repeatedly display. There is nothing admirable of one who commits adultery, it is a breach of a sacrosanct contract that society is founded upon. Thus this person displays untrustworthiness and trustworthiness is a trait necessary for human civilization. But so is redemption, the ability to make amends for one's misgivings. Seeing that all are imperfect, the ability to evaluate one's actions and to make amends for one's mistakes is an admirable characteristic.

The key issue regarding these two virtues, I believe, is how does one know the underlying reasoning for the change in one's actions. If a spouse asks for reconciliation and forgiveness, is it because of a true understanding of their moral failing, or merely social and psychological pressure. The former is critical in being a "good" person, while the latter is not. If given the opportunity, the latter would not necessarily choose what is "right" if society did not place an stigma on it. It is nothing more than coerced morality.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I read the many stories here of Wayward Spouses who have betrayed their BS in the worst possible ways (OC, Bankruptcy, STD's) and somehow "recovery" is made. I want to TRULY know from these BS who this happens to, do they reaaly 100% forgive this and find admiration, etc in their WS again. Do they really believe in their heart of hearts that their WS are great Fathers, etc.. and want for their children to emulate them (obviously I am not talking about the affair behavior), but in the general sense.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If the spouse truly repented and redeemed themselves, then I would claim that they are a person to admire and emulate, since the characteristic of redemption is a trait sorely lacking in today's society. Most would rather continue to act in accordance with their feelings and rationalize their actions, rather than admit mistakes and atone for one's trangressions. For those who continue to act immorally, I have no respect. It displays a willful disregard to the wellbeing of others.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have come a long way in understanding what happened to my marriage and am really "healing", but I know that I am just "not there yet". I still feel alot of disgust when I read about the continued betrayals that BS go through here and still just find it hard to respect a BS when they continue to "accept" it in some plight to "honor their vows". What is wrong with me? Why can't I see what so many of you see in forgiving? Is it because I never embraced the concept of "alien behavior"?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have trouble with this moniker also, it seems to lessen the reality that all actions are willfully chosen, not imposed upon us by outside forces. Because I do not consider the ramifications, or minimize their effects, does not mean that I am not responsible for the consequences. Because I am a adherent to this belief of free will, I hold myself and others to a higher level of responsibility, thus making my spouse's choices all the more painful to me. I cannot rationalize the idea that the concept of marriage was completely disregarded by my spouse -that the pain it would inflict on me and my family was minimized or ignored - that this was the product of some supernatural power.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really have such an incredibly hard time TRULY forgiving the WS. I read the horrible devestating stories of those on the P/OC board and part of me wants to scream to the poor women on that board : "IT WAS YOUR WS WHO MADE THAT CHILD, AND BETRAYED YOU, STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT THE OW TRapping him HIM, AND COMPLAINinG ABOUT CS". I feel horrible that I can't symphathize with the BS in that situation. WHY ??? I don't even understand myself.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Reality is filtered through our minds according to our belief systems, which is my only answer to why I don't think like everyone else and everyone else won't understand why I am right;) I think that the initial reaction for most is to fix the problem, no matter what the situation, thus the BS ignores all details of the scenario, no matter how horrible, and focuses on repair. The longer it progresses the weaker this drive is and the BS begins to contemplate the reality of the situation and their context in this marriage and other options. If it can recover before the BS becomes completely apathetic or bitter towards the WS, then I believe that the fleeting nature of memory allows us to recover, so long as the WS remains faithful and attempts to redeem themself. We simply cannot retain all memory of the thoughts and emotions of the past, thus we can "recover" from painful moments in life. And if there is true atonement, then there is little reason to focus on "what was", one can only work on "what is" and "what will be".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">[b]Thank You for reading this babble.

LM <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> [/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Enjoyed reading your thoughts on a most important aspect of recovery. One cannot expect marriage to work if you have no faith, trust or respect for your partner, and likewise, there is nothing worth fighting for if the relationship is based on contrived virtues that do not exist.

LM - I hear you saying that while you firmly believe many BSs hold on far too long, you wonder if you gave up too soon.

Would you post a little more about the aftermath of D-Day, and about what you and your WW did (or did not do) to repair the relationship?

thanks
Mulan