Little background: Married 15 years, together 23 years. For a long period of that time, we were happy and without problems, stretching all the way back to high school, where we met.

Our problems began due to sexual issues. She wanted sex a lot less than I did, but went through with it because she wanted to keep me happy...like many men, I get angry and grumpy without it. We stumbled on that way for years. I was aware it was a chore for her but I was powerless to want it less or not be grumpy when it didn't happen.

I eventually withdrew from her, and began putting more time into my own interests, something that has been an occasional problem throughout our relationship but seriously excelerated about 5 years ago. I like to take trips to ride rollercoasters around the country with some friends I've made on the internet. I really enjoy these roadtrips and seeing America. I would have loved to bring my wife along on these things, but she is scared to fly and doesn't like coasters much. Additionally, I am also addicted to on-line gaming. So I would come home exhausted from work each day, contribute to the family life a bit until 8:30 or 9 pm, and then go off to game-land until 1 or 2 in the morning. While I was doing this, my wife would watch TV, then go to bed around 11 pm. She became increasingly annoyed with me and lonely, and she tried to get me to change, but I was addicted to the gaming, and the way it allowed me to not deal with the issues in my relationship. Her love for me started to die, and I didn't take the time to stop and put things to rights.

So she took matters into her own hands. She began to get on her computer every night, and rapidly became a chat addict. She also began to discover that she was a major flirt, and that her sex drive was blossoming in that late-30's way. She began to have cyber sex, and then graduated to phone sex. She kept me in the loop on all of this, and I encouraged it...she would get wound up and then come to me for fulfillment. For awhile, our realtionship seemed to get better; we were in the same room, we were sharing an interest, and we were having the best sex of our lives.

Of course, you can all see the problem that arose. One guy in particular became a favorite of hers, and she fell in love with him. Hard in love. He was into music (her special, main interest)...hell, he was a musician himself. When she would have phone sex, she would go into the bedroom and I would patiently wait for her to get done so that we could "finish things off". Unbeknowst to me, she was talking about more than sex with this guy. It blossomed into major love between them. Although I don't think there was ever any serious thought of them running off together (they are 2000 miles apart, and there's 17 years age difference) there was certainly a real emotional connection. I began to sense that something more was going on than what I was being told, and we began to fight more and more.

D-Day arrived the night she left her Yahoo chat open by mistake. I was able to go in and see all that had been going on. It hit me hard, and I freaked out. I discussed it with the wife immediately and there were some vague promises to be good, but the chatting and phoning continued...the relationship continued. Jealousy got the better part of me one night and I emailed the OM, basically asking him what was going on. I wasn't threatening, and we were actually nice to each other. He responded by pulling back from my wife. He has only chatted with her a few times since then, and no phone as far as I can tell.

When I found the info in her chat, I resolved to start working on myself. I had been becoming really grumpy, and I resolved to improve my outlook. I promised to stop taking the coaster trips. I promised to cut down the videogames to a more reasonable level, and to make an effort to spend more time with my wife, working on our relationship. I have gotten a bit out of shape so I made plans to join a gym and I've begun an exercise program, with some modest gains so far. I've begun reading Harley's book, I've been all over the concepts on this site, and I've told my wife I will change whatever she wants me to change. I'm learning about her emotional needs, and finding that I was doing a piss-poor job of meeting them. Lord, I wish I had found this book 10 years ago!

The problem is that she hates me now. It's been a month since D-Day and her depression seems worse than ever. She spends the days and evenings playing the OM's songs and watching videos of his band. She sits on Chat and Myspace, pining for him to come on and tracking his presence online. She pretty much refuses to work on things with me, and she's making it obvious she'd rather not be married anymore. She continues to chat with dozens of other guys, and gets mad when any suggestion is made that the chatting might be hurting our marriage. She's also more distant with the children, and they have started to notice.

She has a lot of resentment built up towards me, and it's understandable...I treated her badly for five years. I suppose I deserve to be just another bitter old divorced dude who had everything and pissed it away for no good reason. But I still love her more than anyone I have ever met. I still want our beautiful children to grow up free from the trauma of divorce. I want to win her heart back, I'm trying to do anything that will do it, and I've made it clear to her that I will do whatever she asks. I've apologigized over and over for neglecting her. I've cried in her arms over how stupid I was. But she hates me. It's f***ing devastating.

I'm torn between waiting hopelessly long for the "fog" to clear (if it ever does), telling her she can have an open marriage and we can just be "friends", or even asking her to move in to her mother's house until she wants to work on our marriage. I don't know what to do. Being patient is so hard. Help!!

I suspect you're in for a rocky ride. One of the first steps in recovery from an affair is NC with the other party, but she can't bring herself to do that.

IN addition, for a time, you encouraged her to have these EA's, (or at least tacitly agreed to them) and then are holding her responsible for having them.

A veddy tricky situation.

I would encourage you to seek a qualifed therapist that can help both of you, and if your W refuses to go, at least can help you.

There is little that you can do directly to "force" her to change. Separation may be possible, but it doesn't sound like a good choice from where I sit.

If I did the math right you were both basically kids when your relationship started (14 or so, which is incredibly young to be making life-partner decisions. I suspect some reliving of the high-school years where she would've most likely been out dataing a zillion guys is where she's at now. And it's fun, and she doesn't want to give it up).
Good luck.

Yeah, you're right on with the "reliving high school years" thing. She's into all the new rock, loves her Ipod, and collects hot young guys on the internet like little leaguers collect baseball cards. Part of it is fun...she's found some good music that I'm enjoying too, and I can't say it hurt our sex life for the last year. But it's also very hard on my ego to be competing with all those thin young 20-somethings. My wife is still very good-looking and could pass for being 10 years younger, and the young boys eat that up. I guess it's a good thing in some ways, because it's making me get serious about working out, dieting, and being nicer to her.

Thanks for your post, I know it's a pretty odd (and screwed up) situation.

Bassist-

Wow! That's quite a story. I think maybe you should both stop with the online stuff....it is counter-productive: for you: because it takes you away from *family* time, and for her because she is having all these online risque relationships.

I understand how gaming and chat can be addictive, when I got my 1st computer I was on that thing non-stop, basically ignoring my family and talking all day long while my husband was at work and at one point developed an inappropriate online relationship. We had even planned to meet, but then I backed out....I just couldn't do it to my husband, I honestly loved him. So I broke it off with him, and I removed the computer from our house, and sold it, so there would be no temptation to get that wrapped up again.

As I'm sure you're aware, online, you dan pretend to be a lot of things that you're not, and by your wife giving out your home phone number, you're both risking the safety of your hojjme and chldren.

I am surprised that you found it okay for her to have phone sex with other men, did you not think that one day she may find someone that was interested in her for more than that?? You were already setting yourself up for failure.

By the way, she doesn't hate you, she's just hurting, she's in withdrawls from this OM.

I have a question about this comment:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm torn between waiting hopelessly long for the "fog" to clear (if it ever does), telling her she can have an open marriage and we can just be "friends", or even asking her to move in to her mother's house until she wants to work on our marriage. I don't know what to do. Being patient is so hard. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay:
1. "waiting for the fog to clear".....plan A, Plan A, Plan A. She is in WITHDRQWL, comfort her as much as you can.

2. "telling her she can have an open marriage, and we can just be "friends". I DO NOT think that telling her you're willing to have an "open" marriage is a fantastic idea, if your intention is to keep your marriage intact.....that would most likely blow it to pieces.

3. I don't believe that separation is a good idea, it's much easier to do Plan A if you are willing to work on filling her EN's without getting much in return.....you should be concentrating on her needs.....maybe if she needs more *sexy* you can fulfill that need. Also find out what her sexual needs are, I mean it's conceivable that you can have go have phone sex *with* her, she is your wife .

DEFINATELY print out the Emotional need wuestionnire on this site....make 2 copies so that you both can find out what your needs are, which gives both a starting point.

Hope this was helpful,

-Caren

Dear Bass...

How does one eat an entire elephant?

.... one bite at a time.

You need to bite off a piece of this elephant every day....

You have numerous personal issues to work on before you can offer your wife (who I think is well worth your efforts by the way ... she is a terrific woman) a husband she'd be proud to stand next to for the rest of her life!

You have not been a leader in your home, except to lead her into trouble.

What are you going to change about yourself right now, today, to improve yourself?

Do one thing every day to improve yourself without worrying about how distant your wife has become.

She needed that distance to protect herself from some of your more hurtful ways of behaving ....

Now is the time to step up to the plate and become a leader who is willing to do the difficult things to improve HIMSELF first.

If you become a man with leadership and loving boundaries in your home, you will be very attractive toyour wife. She needs a husband, not a pimp!

You have a task worthy of a man who can get the job done.

Are you that man?

Pep

Pep -

You need to post more. I love these mind vitamins you leave for everyone, as they help both them and other souls like me.

Bass-

Remove the internet connection from your home completely, for at least the next three months. Don't ask permission, just do it.

She's addicted to the whole online thing. Start creating a situation where she has to change her behaviors...and this would be your first step.

She's continuing to use it as an escape from you and from your marriage. Without that as a distraction, hopefully you both can work on yourselves, and eventually each other.

Eh, removing the internet connection would do little good because: A. we need it for other things, and B. she has chat, etc. available to her at work anyways. It's something I considered (well, I considered ripping it out of the wall at one low point) but it's not practical and it wouldn't contain the problem anyways. So we just need to moderate our usage, something we are actually both working on (me more than her, but I needed to work on it more in the first place). I've cut my gaming down from five hours a night to less than 5 hours a week, and I don't really miss it.

I know it's a big issue to a lot of people that I was letting her cyber and phone other guys, but to me it's not such a big deal...it's more of a kinky thing to do, that in some ways really helped our sexual relationship. I mean, let's be honest, we've been together 23 years...while I still find her hot and desirable (she is), she needed a little something to keep the spark going for me, and this certainly did that. It unfortunately had the bad side effect of her falling for someone, but I have to keep in mind that: A. her EA was an impractical relationship, and B. it was only an emotional affair, she didn't actually sleep with anyone. It's provided a fair amount of hurt since it ended, but it has also forced us to look at our relationship and maybe try to fix what's been broken for a long time. I guess I'm just trying to see the positive in it. She intends to continue her chatting, and I've reluctantly given my approval. I don't want her to be hurt again, but she says she's learned her lesson and will try not to fall for anyone again. She really was devastated by the end of her EA, more so than I've ever seen her before.

As for Pep's question of what I am doing to improve myself, I did address that in my initial post, so I'll just copy that again:

"When I found the info in her chat, I resolved to start working on myself. I had been becoming really grumpy, and I resolved to improve my outlook. I promised to stop taking the coaster trips. I promised to cut down the videogames to a more reasonable level, and to make an effort to spend more time with my wife, working on our relationship. I have gotten a bit out of shape so I made plans to join a gym and I've begun an exercise program, with some modest gains so far. I've begun reading Harley's book, I've been all over the concepts on this site, and I've told my wife I will change whatever she wants me to change. I'm learning about her emotional needs, and finding that I was doing a piss-poor job of meeting them."

We have been doing a lot of talking about things, and I think we both felt the pressure finally loosen a bit last night after a really good talk. She's coming out of the fog a little (I hope) and is starting to realize how much I love her and how willing I am to try and meet her needs again, like I did for years. She even talked to OM last night on chat and it re-inforced for her the fact that it is over, and she needs to emotionally move on.

And, Pep, I have to thank you for helping give us a light moment this morning. We read your posts on here together and now we are calling each other "Lying Cheat" and "Pimp Daddy". It's good to have pet names for each other again!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bassistist:

I know it's a big issue to a lot of people that I was letting her cyber and phone other guys, but to me it's not such a big deal...it's more of a kinky thing to do, that in some ways really helped our sexual relationship. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You might think this is unique to your situation, I assure you, it is not.

There have been numerous examples on this board of why this type of sexual sharing behavior is dangerous.

Know why?

It's about sex, not intimacy.

Your W craves intimacy with you .... and most women find that true intimacy is the biggest BIGGEST turn on ever.

It's a big deal. A woman is connected to the man who loves the deeply private parts of her soul.

Sexually sharing your wife with others diminishes the value you place on intimacy with your wife.

I am not going to name names of the other MBers who tried the same sort of sexual sharing activity ... all with similar results as your situation.

It is a big deal if you want real intimacy between you.

Your marriage problems not about the sexual issue .... your marriage problems are about not sharing deeply personal intimacy. That is mature committed lovemaking.

Pep

bassistists...

while i am will not speak to how pep feels about you and your wifes amusements over such titles as lying cheat and pimp daddy...(I think i have an idea)

I think it's worth addressing....

and perhaps in not such a jovial matter....

when there are issues in a marriage....
especially intimacy issues...but really any problems...

the worst thing couples can do to work it out is to turn away from others....and then compound the problem by involving third, fourth, fifth parties...

it blurs the lines to much of what is acceptable and what is unacceptable....
and what you once believed was the 'cure' is really worse than the original ailment...

the issue is not the kinkiness..
and the issue is not whether or not sex feels good...
and the issue in not that sex is bad..

the issue is the price of using eachother in ways that undermine their value...as well other people out there...though willing partners are easy as dirt to find...it doesn't make it healthy....

the thing is that the learning curve here isn't really being strived for here at all...
it's just being set up to repeat itself over and over again...

and there's just the next emotional affair out there waiting to happen and the next and the next one....

your conclusion to this near scare is NOT for either to change but to just not "get so close" and that is doomed to fail....

you two are already running a great risk of setting the precedent that just the two of you isn't enough...to have a fullfilling sex life (intimacy) the only answer you have sought thus far is involving other people...

doesnt' meet the criteria of marriage vows...

doesn't bode well for staying together in sickness and in health
and in bad and good times....

cause you two are not acting in true partnership no matter the ground rules you both profess to set and keep to...

the wild card is that third party over which you have no control..

also there is a great slippery slope in accepting things that we come to learn are against our core values and goals....once we breach those...or continue those even once we may be having second thoughts.....

you may be willing to accept your wifes continueing of cybering...out of fear...and not because you truly desire and you need to examine that....

it's a distasteful prospect that undermines a marriage...
and probably sets a good precedent for this marriage to fail if not changed....

ark

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: ark^^ ]</small>

Well, I actually asked her to quit chatting, but she didn't want to do it. She says she has friends on there now, it's what she likes to do, and she reminds me that I spent five years obsessed with the computer, so she now wants to have the same thing.

I dunno, I'm not crazy about it, but she insists it will be innocent from now on. I just have to trust her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bassistist:
I just have to trust her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">~~~buzzzzzzz~~~

wrong answer!

Try again!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

She didn't sleep with anyone. I guess I make a distinction between an EA and a physical affair. Probably wrong, but that's how I feel.

darn it
I was going to buzzz in with...

why would you trust someone who is behaving UNtrustworthy...

is that a correct answer....?

Bass,

psssst...over here...I want to tell you a short story.

My affair started online in a chat room. It started in much the same way you are describing. My dear wife encouraged it because it made our sex life better.

Three months later the PA meeting was set up...

I can promise you bass, if you let this continue it WILL go PA (if it hasn't already) and you will be back here with bigger problems than you have today. The fact that your wife protests ending it so much speaks volumes. Step back and realize this.

Read Owl's post above and follow his advise.

RX

<small>[ March 16, 2005, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Racer X ]</small>

Mr. Bass

You strike me as a man with no awareness about how to achieve emotional intimacy with your wife ... or even if you want that sort of intimacy.

Real emotional intimacy increases your vulnerability. That level of sharing is being emotionally naked and completely open with your wife. Not physically naked, but emotionally. No games. No hiding. No conflict avoiding. You are just *out there* to share yourself with her and to enjoy each others deep well of being.

I think this concept might frighten you. Am I correct?

Computer games has kept you well hiden ... but don't you have a thirst to really be intimate with your wife? Emotionally naked with her?

Bringing in outsiders is an avoidance of true intimacy. It's not "kinky" --> it's anti-emotional connectedness tactic using sex as a cover. This speaks of a lack of confidence on your part.

of course, I could be wrong <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep

Online sex chat made your sex life better with your W? How?

No, I think we had emotional intimacy at one point. We have been together 23 years after all, and most of them I think we would both agree were good. The intimacy is not there now, but I'm willing to let it happen again. I don't know if she ever will be again, though. She was very burned by my withdrawal, as is obvious in her thread.

I can't make her want to be intimate with me again, it has to come from both parties. That's why, for me, it's just kind of off the table until her attitude changes (if it ever does).

it's not just wanting intimacy...it's also understanding...

encouraging other parties in to a union does not display good understanding....

infact it undermines its exact definition and environment for it to thrive...

her pursuit outside of the you and she bond displays your wife's poor understanding of it..
yet ironically she had no problem attempting a stab at it with another man...

ark

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TooInvolved:
<strong> Online sex chat made your sex life better with your W? How? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Foreplay. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />