I know we BSs get a little obsessive about the whole thing, but How much is too much?

When the A was going on and I was suspicious, I was amazed at how much like those movie charicatures of BSs- I did some crazy things that I never would have done under normal circumstances.

Now that I believe NC has been established and my wife seems to be returning her attentions full force back to me, what now?

If I keep mentioning the elephant in the room, we always end up fighting. She denies that it actually was an A, says that we'll end up divorced because I don't trust her anymore... Of course she wants to bury it in the past and never talk about it again. I know she feels guilty, and I also know that she doesn't understand just how deeply she has hurt me.

She doesn't want to talk about it at all, and I certainly don't want to talk about it all the time either, but I do need to know and feel that there are more secrets to uncover. How hard should I probe?

Down,
First of all, we have the same Dday and almost the same NC day. My WH committed to NC on 2/16/05. Our kids are 10 and 5.

You do have a right to know whatever you feel that you need to know. It is the only way you will get past this. If she is denying anything, then she is still lying.
I am going to go back and read your posts to get the history on this. I apologize for not doing that first, before replying.

I have asked questions on MB recently also about how much one needs to know. I NEED TO KNOW!! That is just my personality and the MB'ers her helped me to realize that I will never get past it unless I get my questions answered.
I was warned, however about too much info that may make those "movies" play over in your head about the two of them together. There is definitely a fine line.
I'm not sure where that line is in my situation but I am sure I will know when it comes up

Same dates, eh? Ugh. If this is such a common situation, why does it seem like nobody knows about it until it happens to them? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Thanks for looking through my post. I'll search for yours too.

I know that finding out too much will make those movies play, I've dealt with that a few times already. I think this is one time that I really don't mind the fact that she doesn't seem to edit anything coming out of her mouth. Except that it is tainted with whatever wacky emotion she is feeling at the time.

I just read through all 14 pages of MarkNY's questions about an EA and he has it rougher than I do. But it did help me to understand I'm doing a great job of not pressuring her, allowing her to fall back in love with me, and allowing her to feel comfortable opening up to me again. Not that I'm doing everything perfectly of course, but at least I haven't been doing the wrong things.

I have to admit, it is only a 90% sure NC. She hasn't officially come out and told OM it was over and completely severed contact. However she did say that she really didn't care to speak to him ever again, that I was welcome to call him or whatever I needed to to make sure he never contacted her. She went to great pains to show me that she deleted his number from her phone. (Although the suspicious side of hasn't yet checked to see if she just stored it under a different name).

I have been Trusting-but-Verifying and have come up with no evidence that there has been further contact. I suppose she could still be doing it from work though. Anyway, the last evidence I have is from 2/24.

I wouldn't say that she is denying everything, but she doesn't yet accept that there is such a thing as an EA, and doesn't see anything short of sleeping together cheating. I do think that she only is saying that to justify and to ease her own guilt.

Anyway, let me read your story and get back to you.

down, if I were you, I would keep my eyes peeled. If she won't commit to complete and total no contact or even admit it was an affair, then you have a huge problem. Can you check her cell phone bills to see if she is in contact?

Will she agree to end contact by sending a no contact letter?

ML,

I am keeping eyes out like a hawk! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Latest cell bill came in and there have been no calls shared since 2/24. Got the spyware installed and check her email frequently - NC there either. Knowing my nature, I will keep monitoring for a while after I stop finding any evidence. Gotta be sure, ya know?

She told me she doesn't care enough about her relationship with OM to bother sending a letter. Maybe I didn't make it clear about the letter because she seemed to think that I wanted her to tell him she hated him and herself and blah blah blah. She said I could write whatever I wanted and send it to him. Doesn't sound worth the paper it is printed on to me so I didn't do that.

We do have a MC meeting with our pastor Friday (which she set up).

A week after the blow up and NC we did end up discussing things alittle and got into a little argument over her not believing she had an A. It came out that I still consider it an option of not staying together if she continues to associate with him. That seemed to have a big impact on her.
I have been adamant all along that she had to sever all ties to him forever (even before I found this site).

But yes I am watching. Maybe I should change my handle to Big Brother <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I haven't read your story, but I have to ask... have you read Surviving an Affair?

How much she cares or does not care about the relationship with OM is hardly the point. The letter is ultimately a declaration of purpose and is extremely important.

Based on the info you've shared in this thread, I think it would be ideal if YOU wrote the letter, she printed and signed it and you dropped it in the nearest mailbox together.

The reason I suggest you write it is because at this point she's quite possibly not sure what she should write. Oh, I'm sure she has an idea, but there's probably so much confusion, pain and fog flowing around in there that if she actually sat down to write it, she'd be writing something so off the wall that the whole thing would probably do more harm than good.

In fact, I don't even suggest that you write it... I think you should find a sample NC letter on this site and edit it to your needs. The letter has a purpose, and it's structure is important.

If you have read SAA or any sample NC letters you will know what I mean.

dewt

Really?

I guess it doesn't seem genuine to me if I write it. She did tell me that from her standpoint, it is over and all the letter would be is to make sure that he never contacts her again.

I haven't actually read the whole book, but I paged through most of it in Borders and have read through everything on this site at least 3x. I know how it should go, but I guess I'm torn because it seems to me like there is NC. I can find no more evidence and when I haven't found any, I dig even deeper and still don't find any.

I heartily agree that a gesture like that on her part would make things better, but I don't feel like I can make that gesture for her. She doesn't even admit that anything short of intercourse is an A! Let alone EAs.

Here's the link to my story

Her goal as a Xws (if she is even that yet) is to convince you with her words and actions that your M is more important to her than any A. If she isn't anywheres near that point, then she is still a WS. NC or no NC or some NC (that's really not possible but WS' like to think it is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ), doesn't matter..... you as the BS do not feel safe and can't be in recovery.

In other words the WS wants you to settle for as little as possible. You as a BS should not.

Remove the words love and install safe, secure, loyal and caring. Let her know the A stole those words and their associated meanings. It is up to her to prove she can bring that back to your M.

She s/b asking you what it would take for you to restore her trust in you. If she isn't open to that, you are not in M recovery. You may have to think of plan B.

JMHO,
L.

She told me she doesn't care enough about her relationship with OM to bother sending a letter.

Sending a letter would demonstrate how much she cares about you. Does she understand that?

Down but trying...

It seems that focus here has come on the NC letter and I agree with the advice there.

as far as questions and "knowing" my own personal experience has been brutal. D-day was 9 months ago. What I thought (becuase that was how she portrayed, explained , told me about it) was a couple of drunken excursions by my wife 6 - 7 years while out of town for work was much more. It was an affair, EA and physical (2 x). It was not a "mistake" she was the aggressor and my D-day actually turned into 3 as I found out the truth. She planned and executed each meeting and it went on over a year culminating into him making a flight, in his personal jet, over 3 states for a booty call. Yes, this was a wealthy, much older man that was a customer of her company.

Any time that I have hadANY question for her it turns into a brawl. That I don't and will not ever trust her (blind trust is forever out the window for me so perhaps there's truth to her statement). It took 4 months for her to tell me who, what, etc. and even then little truth and questions answered like an attorney would. Of course I had questions....and finally I investigated him...and found out she still lied about stupid "social" encounters I asked about from years ago. That was within the last two weeks!!

I tell you this because unless you're asking really "gory" details you're entitled to the absolute truth. My XW felt that me wanting to know how she felt about him, then and now, was too much..until I explained that I needed her to see it objectively. When she finally said "I was a victim of a middle aged predator who took "advantage" of how she felt about me and our marriage" I felt better...The fact that she feels humiliated and ashamed doesn't make me feel any better. In fact it is those emotions that are an issue. She begs my forgiveness but by all appearances can't forgive herself.

This is all the result 9 months of intense therapy for us both....

You have a long road...keep asking..keep your eyes open...

You might try separating the coversation about "the facts about the A" from the conversation about the pain A caused you. They are related, but if you talk about them together, there is too much of a chance for a nuclear war.

By the way, where is the, "How are we going to make this M better and what was lacking in the M that made WS seek out OP?" discussion?

Thanks guys! Gives me a little perspective.

orchid:

I don't feel safe yet, so we're not in recovery yet. On the other hand, as hard as I dig, I can't find any evidence that there is still any contact. And I'm a good digger.

I appreciate your perspective, it takes some of the hurt out of it. I think she may have the right intentions, but she does want to put it behind us without actually addressing it. She just doesn't realize yet what it is she has to do. How do I introduce that without pressuring her?

I doubt planB will be necessary.

turtlehead:

I think she's halfway there.

send me on my way:

Thanks for sharing. My questions don't produce a brawl, but we do argue and then she plays all hurt that I don't forgive her and we end up not speaking for a time. But the good news is it is seldom very long and she doesn't explode like she did as recently as 3 weeks ago. She seemed to have gone through the W/D symptoms over a month ago - depression, rage... but then there was contact again via email and I don't know if she really slipped back or if she really is done. I am starting to lean towards that outlook, but she wants done to mean forget about it and never talk about it again.

jimmy mac:

I think that emotion and discussion separation is a good idea. I am trying to improve things using the planA method by not LBing and letting her bring up R questions. I am working an my issues of setting the stage as well. It hasn't been forgotten! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Due to financial problems, us running and ending up closing our own business... I withdrew and neglected her needs. She said that OM reminded her of me when we first got together. I am working on returning to being myself that somehow got lost along the way. One thing that is very hard is that I am naturally a person who throws myself into it when someone opens themself to me, but have a hard time connecting when they don't. And WW is just not opening up herself to me. At least not completely. But it is getting better.

I'm reading "Not Just Friends" right now.

My Conclusions:

OK, you guys talked me into it. I am composing the NC letter and will bring it up following our first MC session with our pastor. It would be a prime time to ask her as gently and non-accusingly as I can if there has been any further contact.

Wish me luck and please keep commenting!

<small>[ March 17, 2005, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: down but trying ]</small>

down,

I like your plan. Stick to it. constantly wondering is what is so brutal.

As far as it going away. I have resolved and accepted that it "will never go away". Betrayal is something that cuts to the bone, to the core of your being. My XW has yet to have a rational discussion with me regarding it. She "knew" I'd never forgive her and it drove a wedge between us that was so deep that our marriage was doomed. I ignored the signs. In fact within hours of him leaving her hotel room I threw such a tantrum about her not calling her family while out at a "convention" that I refused to let her speak to her children until she "came clean" about who she was with. She turned my perceived "irrational behavior" (not allowing her to speak to her son)into a cause to be angry with me. I fell for it and dropped it. How did I know? Because she ignored her children for 2 days. something that was not like her. doing that indicated something was up. Am I accountable for how I made my wife feel? Absolutely. Just as she is accountable for her actions during our marriage. She will forever be accountable. After 4 years of hell for both of us and our boys she filed for divorce.

After much counseling things with us are better than they ever were. We're very much in love with each other. However, there is a very deep scar left from her affair. I am not consumed with it any longer but wish I did not think of it every damn day. Now I accept that I still do because of the continued new information. this place has taught me much about the fact that I am normal. Listen to these people. Both FWS and BS alike. Their experiences will help guide you through this. They also tell that it is OK to love someone who has betrayed you!!

I wish you luck...

SMOMW,

Thanks!

They do try to blame you for everything don't they? I think that the only way I bear it sometimes is that I know that she isn't really angry with me about the tiny insignificant thing she is snapping at me about.

One of the issues I am dealing with right now is my own negativity cycle. I haven't found any more evidence of contact, but instead of feeling better, it makes me panic into thinking that they found a way that I can't monitor. It's like by finding nothing I'm sure that there is something. But I also could just be totally paranoid because she never actually "officially" broke it off with him. The last time they hadn't spoken in a while, she said that she didn't care that they hadn't talked, but then after nearly 3 weeks of her not calling, he IMs out of the blue and then it's on again.

I guess I realize I really do need that letter, and I think she needs the closure too. As it is now, every time her phone rings I get edgy and need to know who it is. I check her email all the time, but I can't do that with her work email or tell if she calls him from there. V-Day weekend, she called him on her cell 4x from work (and of course they had to speak on VD itself - interesting abbreviation for Valentine's Day BTW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

OK, now I'm just ranting. We have our 1st counseling session with our pastor today. Wish me luck - my plan is not to hijack the whole thing talking about the A, but let her air her 50%. Also, is there a link to the NC letter anywhere? I can't seem to find it.

down..did not see your reply earlier....

there are lots of folks here that can help with NC letter. Just ask!!

As far as your insecurity goes...why wouldn't you panic. Your wife has yet to be honest...telling you and telling you THE TRUTH are different. It took me 9 months for my XW to "get that"....I continue to struggle with the truth. Counseling helps...helps a lot.

Funny thing is that this week is a 20 year D-day for my XW. Thing is we were broke up...in college..and 19 years old...I did not consider it cheating as I took back her ring and would not take her calls...somehow she got herself into quite a tizzy about st. patty's day....remembering "what I did"...after the smoke cleared...and I discussed it calmly and with facts...no LB's...she came to me and thanked me for making her understand HOW I FELT!! Not my intention...she had questions..I answered. Problem was I was 19, highly intoxicated, and a very different person. I recall little. It was not a relationship...but her hurt is and was real....and because I can acknowledge it...she understands that perhaps I am not irrational about my hurt...my pain..

Down, ask for a sample NC letter....keep coming here. Update us...it really is a healing process..good luck

SMOMW,

Just posted a new topic about after the 1st MC session. Check there for the update. In short, she won't admit that she had an A, but does admit she did something wrong and hurtful. She is NC but only because I can't "get over it". She won't go for a NC letter right now. When asked in MC, she said she wasn't sure if she wanted to work to rebuild.

My observation is that she is still in denial and admitting it means she has to face her guilt.

Thanks for the support!

Down But trying,
Be patient with your wife. She needs time. She is in a fog and is paralyzed with what she should do. Guilt is a terrible paralyzer. Do not give up on her. Give her time to digest what she has done. I am sure she is feeling great remorse for hurting you. The fact that you are in counseling is a good sign. Our marriage counselor said I know that we would make it because we were both ready to roll up our sleeves and make our marriage better. Not focusing on the whys or how could you do such a terrible thing. He put our marriage in perspective. I credit our recovery to him by taking the blame game and LBs out of the counseling sessions. God Bless the counselors who heal marriages and relationships. - Gypsy Wind

Gypsywoman,

I hate to post this, but I have to. I don't mean to pick on you but some of your suggestions and words are off.

You said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Be patient with your wife. She needs time. She is in a fog and is paralyzed with what she should do. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm in favor of Dr. Harley's policies. If the couple chooses recovery, there is going to be a lot of talking that needs to be done. Refusing to participate isn't fog. Fog is that silly notion of WSs that somehow the fantasy affair wasn't a fantasy. As recovery progresses, reality burns through the fog.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Our marriage counselor said ... we would make it because we were both ready to roll up our sleeves and make our marriage better...(by) ...not focusing on the whys or how could you do such a terrible thing...I credit our recovery to him by taking the blame game and LBs out of the counseling sessions. God Bless the counselors who heal marriages and relationships. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I credit those involved in the recovery - the FWS and the BS - with the ones that actually heal the marriage and relationship, not the counselor. All the advice in the world means nothing unless two are willing to apply it.

And I also agree with an early poster on the definition of Love. I think you were trying to tag onto that popular saying that says Love is a verb - meaning it is an action word that shows your feelings. Without putting feelings into actions, its merely a bunch of words.

Be well.

Cindy (edited cause I can't spell)

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: CindyLouWho ]</small>

GypsyWind and CindyLouWho please don't fight <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Actually you're both right. I already know that I need to be patient with her, but not let her off the hook. Things won't happen overnight even if I want them to and forcing her to accept it would be counterproductive. I already accepted the fact a while back that I couldn't end their affair through my meddling, it had to be her choice. Recovery is the same. She has proven herself in the past to accept responsibility for her mistakes, and I am sure she will here to. But all I accomplish by forcing the issue is to drive her away.

About the counseling, for the most part I think it went very well. We were able to talk about things that had been bottled up and I have discovered a new technique to get her to talk - talk about my realizations/mistakes in our M prior to A. I could almost see the respect in her eyes ratchet up when I admitted some things about my behavior to her and how disrespectful they were.

My freedom of action used to be very important to me and I would lash out if she tried to control me. Now after the A I can see how it looked to her, even if it was as simple as accepting a ride from one of her friends over her protests. She actually said that she was surprised and impressed that I would admit to being wrong like that.

One thing about the MC that I'm not so sure I'm ready for yet is that of course being our pastor he emphasizes the forgiveness aspect. Our first session turned out to be more than just familiarizing him with the issues, but I felt like I was going to be expected to forget it all, not ask any more questions and forgive her. I know I'm not ready for that! Of course I know there will be a time for not thinking about it all the time or bringing it up all the time, but I sure don't think it is here yet!

And if she wasn't acting weird enough before, she started talking about wanting another baby today! With some offhand comment that then I could be sure she wouldn't leave me if we had 4 kids! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I'll keep you posted.

down but trying,

please don't take my words as wanting to "fight" with Gypsywoman. That's not my intent at all.

I have been on both sides of this fence and I can report back that communication was absolutely critical in getting us moving in the same direction. Fog only pertains to that clouded state where you're not back in reality and haven't seen the destruction you caused for what it really is.

I realize that my approach to recovery may seem radical, but in my case it worked. It wasn't the soft approach of just live and let live, group hugs, and oh we're all just flawed and we need to just realize that and get on with the marriage recovery plan that some folks embrace around here. For me, it was full engagement, redefining boundaries, down-in-the-trenches discovery of what went wrong, why, and how we could shore things up so we live again.

I'm sorry that my lack of tolerance may have been showing. I admit that I have almost no tolerance for OP or WS that feel that the least said the better, blame it on being human, and with enough love and understanding flower will bloom and the sun will come out again. None of the experts subscribe to this recovery and that's where I gained my knowledge to apply the lessons.

That said, I'm thrilled that the pollyanna plan worked for some folks like Gypsywoman, but I hate seeing it posted here. Why? Because its in poor form to post techniques that are contrary to the host of this site. Rude even. This is MB site, founded on Dr. Harley's principles and its a forum to discuss situations and how applying his principles has worked, etc. Its a site for healing. And posts that give newbies hope that they can do what someone else claims worked (because it sure looks easier) and then it doesn't - well, that's a heavy burden to pay, I would think, for leading others astray.

That's a lot of opinion for a Monday. Again, my intent is just to provide another perspective. I personally believe Gypsy has a lot to add here if she wanted to. I've read her posts and I've noticed that as the OP and WS she stays very vague and give back glossed over suggestions that make recovery look very easy. If so, I'm glad for her. But for the rest of us, its an uphill battle for survival and recovery.

Be well.

Cindy