OK, having only read the last page and a half, so maybe I'm off, but it seems to me that basically it's an adolescent viewpoint of "people can make me do things" and "two wrongs make a right - it she/he does it, then I can do it too and it's their fault."

Some people realize how wrong that type of thinking is when they grow up and take responsibility for their own actions. Unfortuantely a HUGE portion of the population does not grow up.
JMHO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Using one persons behavior to justify another persons behavior..makes it both logical and apparently acceptable [though not optimal [Roll Eyes] ] for XBS to put a bullet in both of your heads..cause your asked for it..you layed the tracks..your behavior contributed to the mental anguish that led her to make such a choice.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent point! And a very good argument why we HAVE to have personal accountability, not only the moral aspects of, but for civilizations to endure.

You know, I think in some ways the arguments here have been at cross purposes...

Wiegee's original purpose was to talk about whether or not a marriage as a result of an affair is "legitimate."

But most of the arguments here have been about the legitimacy of HAVING the affair.

I kind of tried to get at this in an earlier post, but I see now I didn't do a very good job.

I doubt many here would ever be convinced that an affair was justified. I know I wouldn't. And as I said before, I doubt I could ever feel that a marriage between my XH and OW was legitimate. But I'm personally involved there, so there's a difference. Also, given 10 or 20 years or so <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> , who knows, I might feel differently.

But, in general.... if an affair does make it to marriage, well.... I don't think the circumstances that brought it about were right, but you can't un-break the eggs, you know? If it does make it to marriage, then it is a marriage, plain and simple. It should be treated as such.

Of course, I don't think you should ever expect people who were closely involved in the matter and hurt by it to feel that way. And I have my doubts in most cases that the participants have learned how to treat a marriage the way it should be treated. But you can't go undo the past, so once a couple is married, regardless of how it came about, it is then a "real" marriage.

Unless, of course, one of the participants forgot he/she was still married at the time the new marriage took place. But that a whole other can of worms!

Does that make sense though? I mean, I would never consider Wiegee's marriage to be illegitimate. They are married. Regardless of the circumstances, that is the situation now. As much as I hate to admit it, yeah, if my XH does ever marry OW, it will be a marriage (though living hell is more how I picture it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) But the success of a later marriage doesn't justify the original affair, and starting out as an affair doesn't de-ligitimize the later marriage. Which is a good thing - in most (notice I said most, not all!) cases, the affair partners who got married will do a good job of de-legitimizing the marriage all on their own.

Penquin,

I share your opinion regarding the validity of a marriage, even one born of an affair. As it is not my place to be the judge, juror and hangman.

I hoped to convey that to weigee regarding hers. Just don't understand why it is so important for her to have the blessings of the folks here though. Seems like a losing battle and little bit masochistic to me.

We can't change the past and the mistakes we have made but we can change the future, making sure that we "harm none" along the way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Marriages born from adultery are just that. Whether legit or not, they are based in lies and deceit, a union of two reprobate people built on a foundation of dishonor, void of integrity.

As with my other contributions on this topic, I am referring to the marriage of my XW and the OM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by penguin:
<strong>But, in general.... if an affair does make it to marriage, well.... I don't think the circumstances that brought it about were right, but you can't un-break the eggs, you know? If it does make it to marriage, then it is a marriage, plain and simple. It should be treated as such.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, you can't unbreak the egg, but you can sure discern the rotten one. It's not about treating such a marriage differently, it's about thinking of it differently.

These people have all the legal advantages/disadvantages of being married, need to get a divorce if they (or one of them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) so chooses, and can successfully dupe onlookers (and themselves) into believing they have a honorable marriage. To a casual observer, it's the real deal.

But it can never be "pure." It will always carry the burden of being a rotten egg - even before it breaks.

Hey wiegee (squeegee),

Saw your post in another place I lurk, I would hope you would come back and post here...you have so much to offer. Heck, if you need proof, know that this thread you started is on page 5...that means there were many words that needed to get out, and you helped that!!!

My *personal* opinion (and it doesn't need to be shouted) that if I don't take good care of my H, then there is someone else who would GLADLY fill in my place. So...hopefully I've learned enough to be able to have a happy M. My sole fulfillment in life does not come from my M, but it is part of my identity and I enjoy the companionship and R. My M is a BIG part of my life, and I will research, study, act, and ask advice in ways that will help my M. If it works out or not, it is not solely upon MY shoulders, but I will do what I can to have an effective M for me and for my H.

come back and post here...

Well, thanks but no. At least not for a while. I've said I won't go on because people are getting hurt, and I'll hold myself to it.

When it gets to the point my marriage is being compared to a rotten egg and I'm being called a reprobate... it's just time to move on.

Next time someone wonders why relatively few FWS dare speak up here, there's your answer.

<small>[ March 18, 2005, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: wiegee ]</small>

wiegee - why don't you stop looking for the boogie man at every turn? Are you paranoid?

This is what I said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> As with my other contributions on this topic, I am referring to the marriage of my XW and the OM.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So get off your paranoid horse. I wasn't describing YOUR marriage as a rotten egg.

I think you're blame shifting in any direction you can find, at any target.

WAT

I didn't see the disclaimer at the top *shrug*

Using the term "these people" does make it sound like a broader group than two people.

WAT, I have my thoughts about you, too. Next time, just address yours to me personally at cosmovanb@yahoo and we can leave everyone else out of it. If not, you go wash your shoelace and I go wash mine.

Goes for everyone, btw. I'm not averse to discussing the topic. I just don't want to rub salt in wounds, as was said before.

That is all. Bye for now.

Hi wiegee,

I've read most of this thread, and my impression is your feelings are your current marriage resulting from an affair, and the subsequent actions leading to it were justified and without reproach.

So my question is, why do you find need for support from an "Infidelity" support board?

Jo

<small>[ March 18, 2005, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

As I said before, I appreciate Wiegee's honesty and candor. I don't think it is productive or helpful to attack each other. We don't need to agree with each other but can appreciate that someone else has a differing point of view. Hearing Wiegee provides insight into how a WS or AP might think and feel. That's very valuable as far as I'm concerned. Can't we leave it at that instead of trying to dig her into the ground for sharing her thoughts? There's enough of us walking wounded on this site.

Wiegee has apparently signed off quietly realizing or not there is no end to the work that must be done to justify the unjustifiable. She had a retort or a rebuttal for everything anyone said. The more she said the more was left to explain. She is still sick and simply does not feel the fever, expressed in most of her posts as a mere point of disagreement.
But why do two OP's ever marry? Exactly what is the significance of a M between two people to whom it means nothing? Why bother? Fog I suppose. Yes, her current "M" is illegitimate and I don't mind calling it that. Some things are what they are and what they will be.

Resiliant,

I believe that wiegee's origional posts were about her being unfaithful to her present H, whereas their M resulted with an A involved.

BS told wiegee at some point same thing as his xBS told him. This was " go find someone esle."

I believe wiegee was here to deal with that, however, it has turned into wiegee defending her M to her ws/bs and her as ws. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> .

IMHO that is why she is here.

Wiegee is here to try to apply MB princicpals to her marriage, even tho it was the result of an A.

The focus seems to be on wiegee and her H's A with her. He is now a BS, and she a WS.

Sorry for the threadjack wiegee, if I am wrong please correct, stop defending, and we are glad you are here to try and 'fix' you.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Love in Christ,
Miss M

She's not trying to fix herself, she is looking for reasons, excuses and blaming others for her actions and the actions of her H. This is the mindset in which A's happen and continue to happen. It is immaturity plain and simple. There are ALWAYS reasons, rationalizations, thought processes etc. that lead us to an action, including childhood wounds, current hurts and injustices, BUT no matter how you slice it YOUR actions are YOUR responsibility alone no matter the circumstances or reasons or excuses you can come up with. Until you can sit with yourself and accept that some of your behaviors and actions were very wrong, accept that YOU are responsible for them (SOLELY) no matter what lead you to them and forgive yourself and love yourself and move forward having learned from them, you are just stuck and doomed to keep messing up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Written by wiegee:
"When a "future" wayward spouse comes to their spouse in deep need like that only to be rebuffed time after time, well guess what. You're screaming to them, "I DON'T CARE." Message received, loud and clear."</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THIS is where you had a choice, wiegee. YOUR CHOICE was to have an affair as opposed to other choices such as file for divorce.

Your choice was your responsibility, and yours alone. And now your are trying to justify your choice, which for whatever reason seems important to you. Do you think you'd be here rationalizing and justifying if you had made another choice, such as divorce. Doubtful.

Jo

<small>[ March 19, 2005, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>