I know that in the end she is the one who determines it, but what happens when you know what you've said is not intended that way. <P>To explain, our aniv. is on TH, we're separated and I asked her out. She replied "that would be fine". She stopped by and picked our 2 kids up and let me know she had picked up a shift at work that day and we would have to do dinner after 9:30pm. I said that was OK and maybe we could do it another time, if her heart wasn't in it. She got very defensive and pissed. Moments earlier she had invited me to dinner at her place. After her outburst I calmly ask if she would still like me to come. She said "if you want". I calmly stated that I didn't want to come if I wasn't welcome. I also told her that it hurt me that she would pick up a shift when we had plans for our anniv. She said I was judging her for doing what I had done (work) our whole marriage. I told her that I recognized that, and was addressing this in my life. I also said it didn't make it right for either one of us to continue doing that. She just said "say goodbye kids..." and sped off. I have had the history of being the doormat in our relationship. I think it's done a dis-service to both of us. I have always come back and not stood up for myself. Because of this, she lacks respect for me. When you talk of plan A. I feel like I've been doing it for a long time before she had an affair. She always done as she pleases, including the affair, knowing I'd be there. Doesn't she need to see how a marriage can't be about power plays all of the time. I beginning to feel like this isn't the person I want to be married to. I feel like I stood up for myself in a calm, non-judgemental way. If I show up for dinner or work-out plans for TH, aren't I reinforcing our crappy mistakes from before. This isn't pride either, I just want to do what's right for us to be happy.<P>Steve1792

Steve, you wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>let me know she had picked up a shift at work that day and we would have to do dinner after 9:30pm. I said that was OK and maybe we could do it another time, if her heart wasn't in it. She got very defensive and pissed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What you said here to your wife is a love buster. You made the assumption that she didn't want to go to dinner with you - an assumption you should not have made - and you expressed it to her. She got angry because you read something into what she said to you that was not necessarily something she intended to say. A better response would have been something like this: "That's fine with me - or would you rather do it some other night?" Basically the same without the love buster.<P>Yeah, it was disappointing to you that she didn't seem to want to go - but if she's just had an affair, you need to remember that she A) may still be in withdrawal from the OM; B) probably doesn't think she loves you right now. It sucks rocks, but that's how affairs affect people.<P>At this point, YOU are the one who has to eliminate love busters. THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU NEED TO BE A DOORMAT. It is soooooo frustrating to me when I read messages from people who think that Plan A means demeaning yourself. It does not. It means changing yourself for the better. It means learning to love yourself and passing that warmth and love on to your spouse as often as you are allowed. It means making the relationship a safe place for your spouse to be - some place for her to feel comfortable.<P>It doesn't seem to be fair - but nobody said life is fair. You have to decide just how much YOU want your marriage - and then act accordingly. But don't make assumptions about how she feels - that's definitely a love buster.<P>Hope this helps some ...<P>terri

I just had to respond about being the doormat, I've been there to a certain extent myself, although I didn't really know it at the time but I got cheated on twice within two years. I found out about the first time and really let him slide, never hardly even brought it up because I didn't want to loose him. He showed his gratitude by having another affair. So in that way I was definitely a doormat, but he treated me like a princess to my face, go figure? Anyway, my current boyfriend's ex wife sounds very much like your wife. When we met we were just friends for about three months just giving each other moral support. He at this time was still trying to get his wife back who had left and I was still in love with my ex. His ex was involved with another man but refused to come clean and strung him for about 9 months. I never said anything about this at the time he was trying to get her back but from the outside you could see she was a real control freak. He, like you worked alot, she was a stay at home mom. He does take responsibility for his part of the marital breakdown, he works a lot too but he had to. She was a stay at home mom and likes to have nice things. Even before they had kids she would just get a job here and there to have some fun money. I don't think she had any idea what it was like to try to pay bills etc until after she was on her own and crying the blues about having to get a full time job and still having no extra money. Even when we first started dating he was surprised when I didn't mind that he wanted to play golf ocassionally on Sunday, wanted to take a bath right after work instead of immediately taking over with the kids as she made him do and lots more. I was like, isn't there anything you want to do for yourself. He actually had a hard time adjusting to me not *****ing at him or having jobs for him to do all of the time. He said he liked it but it didn't seem normal, he felt like he was doing something wrong and I had to convince him that it was really ok and I really wasn't mad if he needed some down time to himself. My gosh, in the beginning if he played a video game for more than 15 mins he would say oh I'm sorry and I'd be like why and he would say you must hate this video game, I should be helping you... you don't know how long it took me to convince him that I didn't hate the video game and I wasn't mad if he wanted to play it sometimes. I felt like I was deprogramming him. He is a wonderful responsible man and never should have been treated this way. She tried to come back in his life right after we started dating, things weren't working out with the OM, he is a real jerk, anyway, I told my boyfriend that if he still wanted to he should try and work it out, it was still very early in our relationship, we weren't physically involved yet either. He told me no way, it would be hard enough to work through the trust issue but now that I've been with you and I don't have to feel gulity all of the time for playing a game etc when I look at her I just see an insecure *****. I think another reason he worked so much is because he didn't like being home and going through the power struggles all the time although I know he loved her very very much. They had been together for 15 yrs since he was 15 yrs old and he thought that that was how everybody's wife was. Its been 3 yrs since her affair and leaving now and he feels like she did him a favor. No one likes to be manipulated and she was using his love for her to manipulate him. Once he saw it, he said he could never live with it again and he feels it is something she is not at all willing to work on. I know her pretty well too now and I think he is right. I always think its best to try everything you can to save the relationship. But at this point besides just thinking about whether she wants you, being afraid she won't, you really need to also think about whether you want her. I know its real hard, I have been there. In my case once I stopped and thought about it I didn't want a lying cheating man and that is what I had before, I think he even did love me, but he had a major character flaw and when I was realistic and looked at him clearly and accepted the fact that HE DID NOT WANT TO CHANGE, HE WAS THE WAY HE WANTED TO BE I did not want to be with him , that helped me stop agonizing over whether he wanted me or not. I still have feelings for this man and I know some day he will probably change his ways although I doubt it will be anytime soon. He is still in the fantasy world of thinking he is so great he should be able to have a wife or girlfriend that will tolerate this behavior because he is all that. He feels he DESERVES to have his cake and eat it to because there is something so SPECIAL about him. Maybe your wife thinks she should be able to SH*T on you and then control you because she is so SPECIAL you should just take it. I don't know, maybe she is just going through a stage and this isn't her usual personality. In my bo's case he said once he had started falling out of love with his wife (the love goggles started to fall off) do to all the lying and deceit, the only way he could have fallen back in love with her again was if she worked on this trait which he knew she wouldn't do. Nothing is ever her fault, I really just keep my distance from her, we are cordial and she has tried to be my buddy but the power plays she pulls on him make me want to have as little contact as possible with her. It sounds like your love goggles have slipped down, and now that you have viewed this side of her, if it is a personality trait and not just craziness from the affair you are probably not going to be able to accept it like you did before this all happened. Make sure you bring it up with a counselor if you all make it that far. Reviving the love and trust is so hard and this could really be a deterent to you getting yours back. Also, if you want to repair the marriage, isn't there something about how you are supposed to start staying away when their treatment of you is starting to make you loose feelings so you don't just eventually loose them all?

I still DO NOT understand the meaning of "lovebuster." I have read Harley's book, "Surviving the Affair," BUT, does that mean we don't get angry when our cheating spouse does something that hurts us? When they hurt us, are we supposed to just "smile" and take it? Are we supposed to just shower them with love & affection immediately after they treat us so disrespectfully. Don't we, the betrayed spouses, have a right to express our pain and anger? It seems that the betrayer gets off easy when they are the ones inflicting the pain. I need help in this definition of "lovebuster."

Read <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html</A> .<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<P>Chris<P>“When I'm tired and thinking cold,<BR>I hide in my music, forget the day and<BR>Dream of a girl I used to know<BR>I closed my eyes and she slips away“<P>More than a Feelin’ - Boston

terri,<P>You're right. She ended up calling again. I had decided that the dinner that evening would be dangerous because of these sudden emotions. She started by defending and attacking. I was proud of myself for I managed to calm things down and found out that I had "read into it" as did she to my response. <P>Her affair was a one-niter variety which the her therapist can't even seem to figure. I know that they are working on alot of things. I am happy about this because I know in the end, it's work she needs regardless of our outcome. I know I 've been doing it and has helped me tremendously. Her responses to me, seem to be more of using our old techniques (which as you've seen, I still fall into too!) to acheive a resolution. One of the reasons we seem to have these eruptions is because I have really concentrated on myself confidence doing things to make myself happy again, and especially, (for the most part) change my/our pattern of conflict resolution. She has a hard time figuring it I think. I think she's scared, feeling guilt and shame, and having a hard time letting go of the fear that I may not be same person. The "old ways" of a marriage, if nothing else, are security, because that is all she has known.<P> I don't think she's discovered how wonderful it could be! I have daydreamed of the way it could and should be, in light of what I've discovered about a marriage! I wished she'd get on board too! One thing I still need work on though is patience. We're only 2 months out from my discovery, and as you may have noticed, we have a long way to go. You see, we kiss and hug and do talk. Sometimes I just want to push too fast, what we both need is still more time and space. Build slowly on what we've Re-started.<P>tsktsk,<P>Your boyfriend's situation as described, is mine exactly! What I am trying to do is dismantle our "old dance". Eliminate, difuse her power plays by not playing. It's soooo hard, as you have read. I occassionaly relapse. <P>What he has discovered with you (in a new start) is his self-respect/confidence. Isn't it wonderful! His W will never know what she's lost. The sad thing for her, is that it was within her power to to "find" this man, but it's hard to let go of the familiarity of our old ways of communicating. <P>I imagine she is (like my wife) quite confused by the way he has become. In my case, this confusion has caused fear/anxiety, which has translated to desparate attempts to get the old patterns to work again. At this point, that's what we need to concentrate on... really communicating. <P>At least she's in therapy, so I think she has a fighting chance of recognizing her faults. I've done my best at mine, and it's unlocked me from a prision. It has allowed me to forgive and to begin to move on. I just wish I knew if I am moving on to a "new marriage" with her, or just moving on. Time can only tell, that's what I keep reminding myself! <P>Chris,<P>I am always flattered to have your reply on my thread, even if it's not a direct response! I have followed your story. I adimire your stength and courage and it has given me the same. Hang in there. If nothing else, you haven given that gift to many others here. <P>Thanks to all who have responded, more feedback is always appreciated!<P>God Bless,<BR>Steve 1792

Steve,<P>In answer to the post's question, she defines lovebusters for what you do to her, and you define them for her. If you learn to be honest with each other without lovebusters (either in giving or receiving honesty), you will have accomplished something great! It takes a lot of time, effort, and practice to learn to do this (and to apply the POJA) with everything you do. <P>Back to lovebusters: no matter how "right" you are, if a behavior of yours is causing your spouse pain or discomfort, you should cease it immediately. This makes good sense, but you need to learn to practice it effectively in the "gray" areas. For instance, NoTrust brings up the concept of dealing with a spouse who is having an affair (the biggest lovebuster of all in a marriage). Are you angry?---sure. Are you in pain?---You bet. Can you express that?---Absolutely. But you don't do it with Angry Outbursts, Disrespectful Judgements, and Selfish Demands. Let me give you two scenarios on handling this:<P>1. "You selfish Bitc#... I hate you for doing this to us. You don't care about me at all. If you don't give the (insert adjectives here) OP up, I'll take you for everything you've got. I can't believe that you'd do this to the kids! What the hell are you thinking..."<P>2. "Your decision to have an affair makes me incredibly angry... I can barely think straight. I'm so worried as to how the kids are going to handle this. The fact that you've brought this OP into our lives is really unfair to me, and I'd really appreciate it if you would stop the affair now. I love you deeply, and I'm willing to work very hard with you on this marriage, but I'm concerned that this healing can't begin until you give the OP up..."<P>So, in essence, that's the difference. #1 is full of name calling (angry outbursts), disrespectful judgements, and demands. #2 is an expression of the same pain, but without the lovebusters. If you were really dealing with a "unfaithful spouse", using #2 initially won't make much of a difference---they'll hear the same message that was contained in #1. But with CONSISTANT application of the MB principles, over the course of weeks and months, your spouse will notice a difference. I hope this helps.

Steve,<P>I guess my previous reply was to NoTrust.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<P>Chris<P>“When I'm tired and thinking cold,<BR>I hide in my music, forget the day and<BR>Dream of a girl I used to know<BR>I closed my eyes and she slips away“<P>More than a Feelin’ - Boston

Steve,<P>I understand your concerns, and I think we're treading on delicate territory by trying to define what is or isn't to be considered a lovebuster. As K pointed it out, just like beauty, a lovebuster is in the eyes of the beholder. However, striving not to commit lovebusters is a never ending challenge..... just like forgiveness, rebuking sin, and any other quest for perfection. The scenario K pointed out illustrates this point well, I think. I couldn't imagine saying anything like either one of those two examples. I think what I'd normally say would fall somewhere in between the two of those. And that's okay. We're not perfect, we're not robots, we do have feelings and emotions, and sometimes those feelings and emotions influence our ability to communicate effectively. But the beauty of a good marriage is that our spouse recognize we are not perfect and look behind the words to our intention.<P>So, don't beat yourself up over this incident. At some point, we must forgive each other for unintentional lovebusters. What you said may not have been perfect wording, but you meant well, and your intentions were not to harm. Your wife needs to understand this and give you some leeway. There's a wide gap between what you said and name-calling.<P>God Bless.<P><P>------------------<BR>No one said this was going to be easy.<BR>

OK. She has invited me to dinner at her (dad's) place again tonite. I declined said "I'd have to take a pass". I have to mow, and clean up the house. It just needs to be done. Because I turned the offer down, she suddenly became very abrupt. She did spend the day here, at our house, with the kids. She cleaned out her car and let our 4 year old make a mess inside. However, I said nothing about the condition of the house. She was gone when I got home from work.<P>Just got a call. She wanted to let me know she got TH nite off for sure. See original post, but that's our anniv. Told me I could mow tomorrow. So, I decided to go. Is this woman just not capable of CLEARLY telling me anything! Why does it still have to be signals and innuendo. That's what caused this in the first place. We both did it. I think it's obvious that she wants to be near/with me. Is pride that big of a factor?! Is she scared. These games are soo had to navigate. She also wants me to get a movie. I know I should be pleased about her attn., but I can't have a marriage like the one we had before. Patience, right? I know... I know...

K: Thanks for your definition and examples of a "lovebuster." I suppose I am also inbetween those 2 examples. But, it sure is hard to stay in control when your feelings are in "crazy-mode." Its truly amazing how an affair, "the biggest lovebuster of all" can shake up, confuse, and throw out-of-whack, a person's life (and others' lives too). Good luck to all in attempting to defeat these lovebusters.....hang in there!