we have two toddlers....
In 2002 she ("Lori")admired a married guy ("SD") that she did presentations with at satellite offices. I found emails from him " Sorry I haven’t gotten back to you for a while…You are so much better at that than I am. I miss you a lot…it’s great to hear that your holiday has gond well! Thanks for the pictures you’ve sent recently…And YOU’RE in a couple! Thanks for the cool quote. You are “appreciated”. You’re a special lady and I’m glad you’re my friend. Let me know if and when you may be up for lunch some time in the near future."

Hi SD, How’s it going? Just wanted to send you a quick Email to see if you wanted to meet for lunch this Friday? Let me know. Thanks. Hope all is going well. Lori <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />)

“
Th 1/23/03 “Tommorrow, right!?! (Or is it next week?) Yea. I can’t wait to see you . SD

OVer the course of 2003, I internet access her cell phone finding about 1 conversation every other week averageing 4 minutes w/ him. One time she erased a call from him off our caller ID and I noticed.

10/04 I call HIS number w/ HER cell phone and he answers " “Halliluilajia!.... What a pleasant surprise!!... How are you ?!” I hang up .

Computer rep fixes system , I find the email :
4/5/05:
April 05, 2005 7:48 AM
To: Lori
Subject: How's the family? Call when you can....
Call me if you can--try the office number 1st!
I'd love to catch-up and see how you and yours are doing.
Many ongoing changes here at the .... SD

OF COURSE IDONT HAVE ALL THE INFO RE HER CONVERSTAIONS WITH HIM; I PROBABLY HAVE 25% OF IT, DO YOU THINK?

havent had sex W WIFE in 9 mos since before baby #2 was born...but she hasnt had an orgasm w me since 2003 ! I LOVE sex and would probably have had a different partner every day if I didnt know the Truth and wasnt Christian. I've never sexed anyone outside the marriage. We are both attractive & fit. We are Christian. She used to submit to me and admire me till the 2nd pregnancy where she changed in to a B-I-T-C-H- all the way till the baby was 3 mos old.

I so wanto bust her w/ incontrovertible evidence, I havent yet tipped off my truckloads of suspicious data. Perhaps I should call this bozo's wife and see if he confessed anything 2 years ago , or just yesterday. We could set up a sting. Or I could call him.he'd probably tell it straight. The guys sounds like such an emotional feminine guy I cant tell if he's a testosteronless gnat girlfriend or a married weasil.

She doesnt leave the house that frequently and when she does she always has receipts that are correct time/place she says...except she will never turn her cell phone on..

So Is she cheatin?????????????? Did she ???????



Wife and I are starting to hug 2x per day again get along after that horrible 2004 period.

Just read the book "His Needs Her Needs" Great Book, she is reading it too.

Jack

I'd have to say its hard to tell from what you have provided except she may have some emotional attachment to this guy as hes giving her attention..now if its more than that... jury is still out.

Now overall I'd say your W was suffering mild to medium Postnatal depression it can hit some of us women badly and last for ages. Now if at the same time walls were going up between you due to non sexual contact and closeness - I mean have you EVER spent week after week smelling of pooy nappies???? you do not feel romantic believe me!!!

Do you have cause to worry from these emails??? well yes I think the potential is there if it hasn't ocurred yet.
If not physical maybe emotional - but still can destroy M.

What has triggered your suspicion here, actions before or after your last child? her bahaviour in general being secretative? It may help to let people know to give bit more back ground maybe a dot point summary if thats easier.

BUT in any event you need to do the HNHN which I see you have both started, POJA - read up on that, be honest in your feelings - tell her you feel jealous or hurt if she does something to cause this BUT dont attack her.
Be respectful, listen to what she says even if you feel its wrong ... remember its what she is feeling.
Try to initiate talking take interest in her day..and read up all you can here about MB principles - thats vry important.
Even if it proves that she is NOT having an A you have certainly drifted apart ... so start working on it now.


good luck and get back with the other info if you can

Jack, aussiewife brings a lot of experience so please trust what she is saying.

Now my thoughts; I don't believe this is an A; yet. Seems reasonably tame from what you have provided. The other reason I say no is because you said W is reading HNHN along with you. I think if she was in throes of A she would have zero interest in working on her M. None of us are experts so understand you are in the best position to judge her actions. But as Aussie told you already DO NOT launch an attack. You need to create an extremely enviornment for W to even begin to open up to you about this relationship. If it's an A she will get extremely defensive and tell you how controlling you are to justify the relationship. But the fact that she always were she says she is, is a very good sign. Do not let your guard down but you're not in much position to "confront" but rather peacefully voice your concerns. And also keep reading here. The consistency of what wanderers do and say is scary. Once you learn all the signs you won't have to ask the question; is she?

WOE

I have former and current friendship/business relationships where we do alittle sweet talking..Heck, some I even write Love You or Love Ya...I say I miss them because I do miss more frequent conversation/emails but NOT FROM A LOVE INTEREST....

Sometimes, when you know they are not "local" or there is any chance of something more - you are more free w/your sweet talk..It fuels both ego's - yet you know it's only in fun..nothing more.

If your SF/her orgasms are at zero...do something quick to improve that situation..Then her next email may include how wonderful YOU are...That your the best ever..Don't let too much time pass before you two create intimacy again...

Good Luck.

She used to submit to me and admire me till the 2nd pregnancy
WOW that coment is really blowing me away... SUBMIT!!!! Jack12 I hope I have just read that in the wrong context you dont want your wife to SUBMIT you want her to want you.
Have you sent alot of time reading plan A. This is what you need to be doing anger and jealous outburst are only going to send your wife further from you. I think you have a right to be a little concern about the calls but they seem fairly harmless to me. Romance your wife show her the man she married is still here.

FIRST LET ME SAY THANK YOU FOR ALL YOUR ADVICE...YOU ARE RIGHT ON ! DUE TO HNHN, SHE IS ALL OF A SUDDEN RESPONDING AND THINGS ARE A 4 TO 7 , AS OPPOSED TO A CONSISTENT "3" .
ANSWERS BELOW:

overall I'd say your W was suffering mild to medium Postnatal depression WE SLIGHTLY LOST FOCUS ON EACH OTHER AFTER BABY #1 WAS BORN...BUT AS BABY #1 WAS 18 MOS AND W WAS 3 MOS PREGNANT SHE TURNED INTO A "B" VERY SUDDENLY , AND WE BEGAN FIGHTING BITTERLY EVERYDAY DISAGREEING ON EVERYTHING, EXCESSIVE NAGGING, ETC. PREGNANCY #1 WAS A BREEZE EMTIONALLY AND PHYSICALLY FOR HER. BUT #2 WAS HELL EMOTIONALLY, AND I AM SO BURNED OUT ,BEAT UP , AND NOW APATHETIC, AFTER BEING YELLED AT FOR INTIATING SEX SO MANY TIMES, AND CRITICIZED FOR MY KISSING, I AM JUST THRU WITH BEING THE INSTIGATOR.

What has triggered your suspicion here, actions before or after your last child? IRIGINALLY, BEFORE THE FIRST CHILD, I SAW ODD PHONE NUMBER ON CALLER ID, SO I CALLED IT AFTER HOURS AND THEN WATCHED FOR IT AND DID MORE RECON AND IT ALL TIED TO "BOZO" . her bahaviour in general being secretative? USUASLLY NOT, BUT ONCE EVERY 8 WEEKS SHELL BE GONE AN HOUR LONGER AND NOT REACHABLE ON CELL PHONE...AND SHE HAS NEVER NEVER MENTIONED THIS GUY IN 3 YEARS, YET SHE STILL CALLS HIM.

JACK

"The other reason I say no is because you said W is reading HNHN along with you. I think if she was in throes of A she would have zero interest in working on her M."
THANKS MAKES TOTAL SENSE.

"DO NOT launch an attack"--THIS FINALLY SUNK IN . I NEEDED 2 OF YOU ALL TO GET IT INTO MY HUNTER MIND! TY.


need to create an extremely enviornment for W to even begin to open up to you about this relationship. WISE THOUGHT . THE BEST CIA PEOPLE DO IT THIS WAY AND MAY NEVER ATTACK. WHY NOT TREAT MY WIFE EVEN BETTER.

But the fact that she always were she says she is, is a very good sign. THIS IS TRUE 98-100% LATELY, BUT I'D SAY LAST YEAR IT WAS 5% VAGUE WHERE I COULD TELL . ONE TIME SHE LEFT WITH A GYM BAG AND CAME BACK IN 2 HOURS W NO GYMBAG AND I SEARCHED HER CAR, EVERYWHERE FOR IT AND NO GYMBAG. A WEEK LATER SHE LEFT TO W/OUT AND WAA LAA THE GYMBAG WAS BACK. I SHOULD HAVE CONFRONTED THAT BUT DIDNT KNOW HOW. THAT WAS IN LATE 2003. BUT NOW SHE IS ACCCONTABLE I THINK , BUT STILL WILL NEVER LEAVE HER CELL PHONE ON .

"The consistency of what wanderers do and say is scary. Once you learn all the signs you won't have to ask the question; is she? "-I FIND THIS VERRRRY INTRIGUING . HOW DO I LEARN THE SIGNS...GUESS ILL HANG OUT. BTW, I AM A FINANCIL PROFESSIONAL W/ MASTER'S DEGREE; ESTP; CHOLORIC ,LOVER OF KNOWLEDGE AND COMPETITION. CHEERS AND MANY THANKS! GOD BLESS. JACK

THANKS , GOOD IDEA . HARD WHEN I FEEL SO HAZED FROM HER UNPROVOKED NASTINESS, REJECTION OF SEX, REFUSAL TO RUB MY BACK (5 LANGUAGES OF LOVE book "PHYS TOUCH" IS MY TOP ONE), THAT I ENDURED FOR SO LONG . BUT SOME HOW I SHOULD GET FIRED UP AND DO THAT STUFF AGAIN.

I GUESS I CAN SEE HOW A FEMALE COULD PLAY INNOCENTLY THAT WAY, ESP IF IT IS WITH AN OFF THE CHART "ENFJ" "ENFP" male.

This year Ididnt even get a "happy Valentine's day " from her, she never ever said /acknolwedged theday. I brought her flowers and ballons for the toddlers, and she said "How much did those cost" ....I bought a card , but never gave it .

BUT, We are getting closer slowly w dates out every month where we have talked on improving our relt . She occasionaly says 'we need to have more sex' , and I agree withe her and nothing happens. Maybe it will. Thanks for your thoghts! JACK

I used "submit" in the context of Biblical submission, "Husbands love your wives. Wives submit to your husbands" from Book of Ephesians . We agreed on that always, and then it was jettisoned by her all of a sudden. Picture the CEO everyday in a vehement stuggle for authority with the CFO for no apparent reason. I realize this is a controversial "issue" w/ today's liberals and mainstream . But, the above IS the way to live. And it actually creates greater responsiblity on the husband , imo.

Thanks for the idea of showing her to whom she married!

Best Regards, ---Jack

Hi Jack,

I know I don't Jack about Mr and Mrs Jack12 but what I do know is that if a man gives attention and affection as a prelude for sex, the woman will most likely resent him for it. Yes she is your W and one of her responsibilities is to give you physical love but just imagine a friend or close relative that only contacted you when he/she something from you [i.e. money] and I think you can see what my point is here. You might want to check out The Love Diet to see if anything in it might be of any use to you in your situation. Show your W that your love for her is not tied to your genitals and you just might be pleased with the outcome.

TMCM

Like too much coffee I know Jack about mr and mrs Jack
BUT.... There is something about your thread that has me worried. I feel a LOT of anger comming from you. Personally the emails and the calls you have noticed dont yell A to me. But you seem to not have respect for you wife I am not saying she is right for turning into a "[censored]" but to turn that around you really need to PLAN A her not look for faults and certainly not by blameing her. It takes 2 people to get a marriage to this state please own your share of it. Your wife has two very small children she is overcome by this and trust me as a woman I KNOW!!!! help her give her time out without the kids give her your love and most of all give her your FRIENDSHIP AND RESPECT... I guarantee you this will help turn your marriage around. Please dont go looking to blame her for the situation you two find yourselves in. That will just send her further from you.

jack12

set aside a night or time on the weekend for you & your w - yes hard with little ones - but with a bit of planning YOU can do it. TAlk, hold hands, smile WITH her, take her out - coffee & cake even, at least once a week. DONT rush these times ,,take it slow, if the kids cannot be looked after by a neighbour or relative YOU get up and get them a drink or something to eat. Try to make it YOUR time. Boy do I know thats hard to get.

Now when you come home from work, get her to sit down, put her feet up, make her a nice cup of tea...keep kids busy,,, 15 mins will not kill you BUT you WILL reap the rewards of paying attention to her. Vary it, sometimes after dinner...
want some extra points - rub her feet. LOL

please believe me when i say from experience its HARD to feel much love emotion for your man when you smell of pooy nappies and food goo. In fact its darn annoying when he wants to play. You feel like saying P*** Off.

Don't push for SF but let it happen. Dont give up either. It will come back if she sees you LOVE her and dont take her for granted.
And dont EVER feel you can ever say enough times that she is beautiful and you love her. Just dont let it become some rote thing you say out of habit.

Now I dont know what happened last 12 months or so - its sounds like she was attracted to 'Bozo' or was looking for 'something' outside the daily nappy grind. maybe just talk sounds like that to me mostly but who knows until she tells you. Did it get to more???
No idea.

However, if YOU are doing plan A, depositing into the Love bank, making a safe place for her to talk to you. even with the WORST of news, then you are on the road to a new M.

jack12, have you thought about what YOU will do if your suspisions ever turned out to be right? HAve YOU faced that?
I mean just being here would indicate you want to save your M. HAve you thought what you will do if in some time ahead she said she had an emootional or physical affair?
Why do I ask? well I'm picking up from your posts that you are still very uneasy over some past behaviour and want you to think it all through.

Hopefully its not that at all, but only a wishful little dream of that carefree time before kids and responsibility came along. BUT if worst have your plan up & running to get the M back on track.

Both of you have SO MUCH AHEAD OF YOU ... good times amd bad..you both will need to work on the M if its to be together and with kids it should be together Lord willing.

If your W ever wants to chat she can email me if it will help. My addy below...might be way to early for that however if in the future it can help pls do so.

All the best

Aussie Wife, thx for the many wise ideas and questions to ponder. All great food for thought...I feel like saving your posts..maybe I will...and may have my W E M you at a later date.

btw, tonight we discussed the HNHN book for 15 min and the conv meandered to last year and I find she still harbors adverse feelings for 1/ Apr 2004 tax season and 2/ my unwillngness to air travel to see her mom(65),dad,sis(36),bro(35). We have kids 2 1/2, and 6 mos.

Under 1/ she nagged me 8 times a day for 3 weeks to do taxes I became worse than LIVID about the deal, and stopped working on em. But in the end, they got done on time and would have w/ out her . I said either she submit to me on it and let go or must do taxes HERSELF. She still cant let go and says she comfy when done early . I said not my style EVER, and I always complete by deadline, and even if not, worst is tiny penalty, since we make quarterly contrubutions in advance.....WILL IT TAKE A PROFESSIONAL TO GET HER TO *LET GO* HERE ? now that I think of it...thats about the LAST time we had sex..........

Re 2/ ... It has been h-e-l-l on our relationship when we have travelled w/ our toddler as a 1 year old to her parents via plane...we have fought over pressured travel...everytime we have done it, and now there are 2 kids under three...I say her family can see us till another 1 1/2 years go by..she takes personally...I say I would NOT air travel at this unique time (2 kids under three) even if it were my family outta town.....big standoff....she may take baby by herself outthere in June even tho her family will be here in May for baby's baptism....I am ok w/ her going, but she may resent....In ten years we will be going out there 1/per year, just not this year....how solve issue..do I have to go thru living hell again and air travel w/ 2 toddlers to inlaws house for a week...How can I get her not to think about this as I am using my tongue on her amd she stops me and says "..that's ok...that's good.." -- if u know what I mean.

Also, how can I get motivated again to even care about satisfying her needs...the fighting over a year has so burned me out and being celebate is so demotivating too. I love her ,a nd am committed to a long marriage (even despite any potential A )and think it will get to be great again..but how and when.......

Thanks again to you and all on this site-

God Bless,

Jack12


Also, how can I get motivated again to even care about satisfying her needs...the fighting over a year has so burned me out and being celebate is so demotivating too. I love her ,a nd am committed to a long marriage (even despite any potential A )and think it will get to be great again..but how and when.......

MMm Jack

ok one need I see right away is the Tax/financial issues..why??? you ask.... she is a MUM now her kids & one of her needs is now the driving force of her need to have stability & security...does it REALLY matter if you do tax early??? Can't you see it as letting her know you want to make her happy....meeting her EN's?????
ITS NOT about getting her own way, you need to see past that, but it does not mean you give in on EVERYTHING either. There may be issues YOU want things done.
Also remember she is NOT your child, she is YOUR wife and does NOT want to be told 'pat pat on the head it will be all right dear' ...she wants to sit down and see for herself and SHARE the worries and good things ok????

Now one thing Jack I will say... you guys need to start talkling now!!! RIGHT NOW!!!
I dont mean how are U I mean about sex, about relationship about YOU & HER!!!

Travel with kids......sorry you do have me confused .......do you mean to say you have great problems coping with the kids when you travel by plane?? Is it a coping issue or a dont want to do it issue???
I used to travel with babies & move house every 18 months or so all around Ausralia until we Defence wives/Mums complained to Parliament ...NOW THAT was horror. lol
Look there ways & means Jack ......dont close your mind to it...alternatives ..train etc ?????

ok TALKING ....
Now hold your temper and dont argue with her ok? Let her have her say, accept it is how she FEELS, the way she sees things.
DO NOT NOT NOT tell her she has it all wrong. That ia a big love buster. When my Jack used to say that wayyyyyy back when we first M I got so MAD!! ok I was 18 but crikey he was only 19!!! yep age does have alot to do with it hehe.

just think if she said you were wrong & imagined everything ......how you would feel if she disregarded what you felt??

So remember this is feelings we are talking about ..I suspect an outsider would see some truth in what both of you say.

one thing, regardless of WHAT she says, if you feel you were wrong do not hesitate to say you have thought on what you said/did and decided you were wrong. Dont do this just to avoid conflict though, only where you truly feel you could have done better. Dont use this a power thing or a manipulation ... its about communicating!

Please start talking BUT if it gets too aggressive and angry from both of you AGREE before hand to stop and go see a MC asap... not conflict avoidance but when its getting too nasty and not being helpful..... you know the wish you were dead sort of thing not just you are a mean sob etc ...agree to set a boundary on this

Good luck & go work on your two Jack

Aussie Wife:

"does it REALLY matter if you do tax early??? Can't you see it as letting her know you want to make her happy?"---
I WOULD LOVE TO , BUT AS A 'MYERS BRIGGS' "ESTP" , DOING A 'B' TASK IN ADVANCE IS HONESTLY WOULD TAKE MOMUMENTAL EFFORT AND A BREAK OF NORMAL HABITS OF FINISHING JUST IN TIME IVE BUILT OVER 40+ YEARS. PLUS, TOO MANY ITEMS TO LIST WERE MORE IMPORTANT THAN THAT TO W AND ME...JUST TOOOO BUSY W/ OTHER BASIC PRIORITIES..I WISH I COULD. SHE KNOWS IM A ON TIME GUY, NOT BEFORE, IN EVERYTHING AND SO IS SHE......
AND FINANCIALLY WE ARE VERY BLESSED TO BE IN THE TOP 90% IN INCOME.


"do you mean to say you have great problems coping with the kids when you travel by plane?? "----
BESIDES THE EXTRA WORK FOR NO EXTRA FUN (ONLY AT INLAWS HOUSE 1800 KM AWAY ) WIFE HAS BEEN IRATE AND NASTY ON THE PLANE AND FOR THE 4 DAYS EVERY SINGLE TIME..SO IT IS A COPING ISSUE FOR HER, AND A COPING ISSUE W/ ME COPING WITH HER ; AS WELL AS HUGE WORK ( PAKCING TONS OF GEAR ) + LITTLE REWARD (NO BEACH, SKI HILL) FOR ALL THAT EFFORT. I CANT WAIT TO TRAVEL TO BEACH IN 2 YEARS WHEN KIDS ARE PAST AGE 2 AND EASIER, AND WIFE IS MORE SETTLED. BUT RIGHT NOW TRAVEL SUCKS.


"Start Talking" --
HEY THANKS A TON FOR THIS PROD! WE HAVE A BIT, BUT YOUR URGING MAKES ME FOCUS AND COMMITT TO MORE AND ADEQUATE TALKING...MUCH APPRECIATED....

BTW, PEOPLE USED TO ADMIRE OUR MARRIAGE AND WE WERE OUTWARDLY ROMANTIC AND HUGGED ALL THE TIME AND TOUCHED ALL THE TIME FROM 1997 TO 2004. I ONLY KNEW THREE OTHER COUPLES I WOULD HAVE EVEN TAKEN ADVICE FROM...THOUGHT WEHAD IT ALL..EVEN 1ST PREGNANCY WAS SMOOTH SAILING, THEN BABY #1 CAME AND WE SLOWLY IGNORED EACH OTHER; THEN PREGNANCYY #2 AND SHE CHANGED AND IT WAS HELL. NOW THE AFTERMATH IS JUST SORTA LIKE HALF MARRIED AND HALF BIZ PARTNERS. HOPE IT RETURNS INCLUDING SEX LIFE.

THAT OTHER MALE FRIEND CALLED A FEW DAYS AGO ON THE CALLER ID..SHE DOESNT HAVE A CLUE I KNOW HIS TWO PHONE NUMBERS AND EVEN HIS ADDRESSAND WIFES NAME. I WAS SCROLLING CALLER ID AND SHE GOT A BIT JUMPY ..'WHAT ARE U DOIN?" ..I WAS ACTUALLY LOOKIN FOR A DIFFERENT CALL WHICH I TOLD HER..BUT SHE WAS STILL JUMPY,CAUSE SHE DOESNT KNOW HOW TO ERASE IT.

BUT HEY WE GET ALONG FROM A 5 TO 7 LATELY SO IT IS BETTER THAN IT WAS...TIME TO TALK.......