Can I just say as a "WS" I find there's much more support here for the BS than there is for the WS. I've come here many times looking for support and have only found a few helpful threads. After getting a stern talking to from serveral BS's I just decided its not going to help me any posting any of my real feelings here.

IMO perhaps FWS should be the primary one's to be counseling WS and BS's counseling BS's. Though I think insight on both sides is helpful I don't think one always knows where the other is coming from enough to be sympathetic to their situation. We can all read eachothers threads to gain insight, but spilling your negative feelings on me isn't going to make me listen to you one bit. I think we all know that a marriage in trouble means neither party is innocent or not responsible. And I don't think we are here to play the blame game. We can do that well enough in our own marriages.

So if you are going to try and help people, then listen, ask questions, don't bring the feelings from your situation into theirs. If you want people to stick around and get help then lets try and encourage them to talk about their situations. I think negative behavior can be highlighted witout personally attacking the poster.

Thats all I have to say.

--win

I am sad that you, LB, did not feel you got the caring support that you needed at the time on this site.

I do think different people have different approaches here. Some people radiate love and compassion, others are better at finding the relevant questions to make people think, others are good at helping come up with a plan, others at encouraging, etc.

I think that everyone on here is giving up their valuable time because they have a desire to help others out of their pain. It doesn't really matter what approach they take.

What helps will also depend to some extent on what the poster is able to hear. I guess this (may be) Jimmy's point. Maybe a first time BS poster, in enormous pain, might not be in a frame of mind to hear how they 'enabled' an A, even if, in their situation, it was true. Maybe just listening to the pain, initially, would be a better approach for a person in this situation.

Still, I think most posters are respectful. We are not trained counsellors, and we do our best from what we know and what we have experienced.

Don't get me wrong, I did get the caring support that I NEEDED--it just wasn't the caring support that I WANTED <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

If I could have seen into the future, I would have recognized that the type of caring support I received was preparing me for a much bigger, a much longer, and a much more difficult battle. Had I received caring support in the way that I wanted it, I highly doubt I would have been successful in a much more important battle than saving my marriage.

What did I know? I was a fogged out BS! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Smur,

You are so right. Everybody has a different personality and with that bring different approaches/insights to the table.

The good, the bad, and the ugly. LOL

After all the time I have spent on the board I pretty much know which poster is about what. And it is very refreshing to see them stay true to themselves and their own style.

I just avoid most threads now where WS's are new posters because I am afraid to cause more harm than good.

I will leave that to those more restrained and experienced ones.

Communication Class 101:

Every act of communication carries two messages.

The literal message that is spoken.

The message that is intrepreted by the person receiving the message.

What is intrepreted has a lot to do with attitude.



I took this literally and I agree with statement.

JimmyMac, you took it as sarcastic...why?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Anyone mind telling me Which thread the discussion is all about?

(Just don't feel like being a detective today). Thanks

If I missed it in the thread, sorry..........but I'm plain flat out tuckered out tonight.

TR~

Got Caught

Here you go

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

This sorta discourages me WinBin ... because as a recovered BS I specifically reached out to you offering help and support

.... I bumped up the thread I started for you as a reminder....

Does this not count as support?

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

My overall impression of this board -- in general, not in reference to any specific thread -- is very similar to JimmyMac's. Though there are many, many people who reach out to other in many positive ways, I've also read many rants that arose out of the pain of the person who was posting rather than as a truly constructive response.

I don't limit that to responses to WSs. I've seen a few BSs get raked over the coals as well, particularly if they're in the insanity rut (do the same thing over and over again and expect a different result) or being particularly destructive to their marriages.

On the whole, though, when I read a "triggered" response (one where the poster really seems to be yelling at someone else entirely), it's almost always a BS ranting at a WS. I understand it. Heck, I think I've done it. And at the same time, it seems to me that other approaches are more effective.

So thanks, JimmyMac -- I think it was a great reminder.

And for those who got annoyed that JimmyMac expressed his opinion: I'm genuinely curious as to why him pointing out that some approaches seem more effective than others would be offensive or triggering? I'm really not seeing it as anything more than a helpful reminder, so I'm a bit confused.

Here J, allow me .... Please explain to me how my saying to someone that he is a very lucky guy to be getting a second chance with his wife, is (according to Jimmy)

"gratuitous sniping" .... ?

gratuitous means undeserved in the circumstances....

sniping means taking a cheap shot at someone ....

So J, you may not be clear about this, so I will try my best to explain to you ...

I said something very simple to a poster with no hidden agenda or intent to harm, and Jimmy says I am part of a gratuitious sniping mentality ...

and guess what?

He's wrong !

And I am saying so, because he is talking about something I said, not something you said.

I am not "annoyed" that Jimmy expressed his opinion. I am not especially happy at being misrepresented.

Jimmy seems to think my motives as well as my methods are harmful.

You J, seem not to be annoyed that I am being misrepresented here. Why is that?

Pep

I think JimmyMac did a little more than suggest that some approaches are better than others. He inspired such offense because he attempted to impose his own personal sensitivity standards on others. Trying to control others usually does inspire wrath. Please note all this dissension comes NOT from the discussion on the thread in question, but from Jimmy's attempt to control others by playing the self appointed behavior police. Nobody likes a behavior cop. This is a very typical and predictable response to controlling behavior.

So, perhaps if Jimmy's goal is to effectively reach people, instead of offending them by attempting to shut them down because they don't meet his personal standards of sensitivity, it might be a good idea to avoid controlling behavior. Remember, we can only control ourselves, not others.

I believe I own the other two remarks, the "it's all about you, and you are full of yourself"

That's what I saw, a man who wrote that he told is BW that the best way to get through this was for her to stuff her questions and do things his way.

Now Jimmy Mac is saying we should stuff our impressions and do things his way...

I respectfully disagree.

T

A "great reminder" .... of what ?

You are thanking someone for misrepresenting my quote .... and I'd like to know why.

A great reminder of how a well-intended comment can be twisted and bent into something that sounds sinister ... but was actually .... completely innocent ?

I am so confused by this attitude.... really <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Hopefully, we can use this thread as a "reminder" of how NOT to "effectively" communicate with others. This should be a monument to what happens when you try to control others by dictating personal standards of behavior.

As they say in AA, ya can't control people, places or things; you can only control yourself.

Ms. Fraggs & Susan:

This lazy a*z Thanks you Both! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

(Now I can see what all the ruckus is about). <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

OK
Time for me to be forthright. I do not represent all FBS/BS just me.

To me as a BS/FBS every SINGLE action and behaviour of a WS reprehensible, evil and foul. Sneaking, cheating and having sex with a person outside their marrige - Foul

Buying flowers/gifts for their unknowing spouse - also foul.

Every action of a WS is utterly polluted by their actions in their affair.

So when a WS gives up their affair.

EVERY ACTION that in some way justifes, sympathises with or supports the now given up affair is STILL FOUL, REPREHENSIBLE. Evil.

Fundamentally I believe that there is never ever a justification for an affair. If I had been a totally delinquent husband 20 years she would have been justfied in having me arrested, leaving me, divorcing me, ANY legal, moral defence. ACTION may be justifed but EVIL ACTION is not.

Why ? Because when we marry we do so exclusively and for better or worse. We commit to each other( an dto God if we have a faith) but ALSO to the union of marriage that we will uphold its tenets. Constructive remedial actions should be EXHAUSTED (IMO) before a divorce is considered.

Unless a BS hold a gun to the WS head and forces them to have sex with another, they are not responsible for the affair.

Responsible in varying degrees for an unsatisfying or poor marriage ? ABSOLIUTELY ! Usually in fact ! But the affair was the worst possible response to any M problems.

When me, as a FBS read any hint that a FWS might be minimising the perceived damage of, or mitigating an affair it makes me angry. I believe that because affairees usually enjoy some extreme pleasure during their affair it is hard for them to ever truly think of it as an entirely bad thing. A BS can never think of an affair as being even the slightest bit positive.

This is fundamentally why I think some WS get a more frosty reception than others.

I am AWARE that many/all FWS may harbour SOME positive feelings about their affair, and also may harbour some perceived justification for it.

This isn't something I can countenance, hence my rarely responsding to WS/FWS who display and hint of such.

I'm not defending my position, just expressing it, hoping to explain why I refrain from response and many BS/FBS and 'lifers' who know a lot about affair dynamics have such a low tolerance for affair-suporting attitudes.

Where Jimmy is RIGHT is that an actively foggy WS is likely to display MORE of such behaviour and so is likely to get a harder time than a more idently 'recovery' minded FWS and so may actually recoil when it would be better for them and their BS if we could make them 'stick' and accelerate the de-fogging process.

In this case I don't think the WS in question DID get such a hard time.
BTW ARK used capital letters so she must've REALLY meant it ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Bob,

After I’ve read your post, I feel somewhat concerned and I want to ask you a sincere question. You might think it is a stupid question - I don't know... Please answer it honestly and truthfully and don’t be afraid that I will take ‘offense’. (I’ve asked your honest opinion, so I will take what I get! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) Here goes:

Personally I don’t think there are any FWS on these boards who ‘support’ betrayal and infidelity, but from your post I get the impression that you do think there are some FWS’s on these boards who support, justify and minimize past A’s… I asked myself why and then I was wondering if maybe you don’t possibly perceive sympathy and empathy towards a FWS (the person) wrongly as support, justification etc. for the past A (which from my POV as a FWS I think is definately not the case). And I was wondering if you maybe also perceive some of my posts to other FWS’s this way???

I do experience much empathy and sympathy for the feelings of new FWS’s (especially those in withdrawal) who post here (maybe because I suffered so severe from withdrawal myself), but in NO WAY do I or will I EVER support the acts of betrayal and infidelity (or the past acts thereof). However, after I’ve read your post this morning, I’m concerned that maybe my support & empathy to new FWS's might give the wrong impression to BS's like you... So, if you don’t mind, please take a look at the post I send to ConfusedinMd yesterday and please correct me if you think I’m totally off base here with my concerns! There is always space for self-improvement and that’s why I asked you this question. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you,
Suzet

Bob you make some good points. One in particular sticks out:


In other words, if you feel that you can't come in and be helpful, you will simply stay away. Now there's a nice injection of relevant wisdom, of the kind handed down from my Mother. If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

I've been following this thread. I've seen this discussion come up more than a few times, and I'll offer the same argument.

Here at MB, if we decide to use the program, we agree to adopt behaviors that follow a certain code. One of these concepts is to avoid LoveBusters and more specifically, Disrespectful Judgements. As MBers I feel that ideally we would all share the common goal of wanting to improve ourselves and adopt these concepts (which we say we believe in) to improve ourselves. Isn't that what I keep reading? Work on you?

So why then should it go right out the window when we start posting to a wayward who has come here fresh? The kind of statements that they make that inspire ire are usually fog related, no? And yet they are here... and that in itself, is something.

If a foggy WS shows up here, (which is at the very least a step in the right direction) why would we react to that right of the bat with Lovebusters?

(here's something from that page)


It makes perfect sense to me that we have a responsibility to treat the spouses of others by the same criteria that we keep telling each other to treat our own spouses. And not just to save the marriage, but to help each other grow.

Moral argument aside, there's also the bottom line. And that is that the strategy simply doesn't work.

Here's what Harley has to say about Disrespectful Judgements:


I've been at this forum long enough to see plenty of waywards AND betrayeds leave in reaction to gratuitous sniping. Too many to bother quoting or pointing fingers.

My own spouse avoids posting here for this specific reason. She does not need to be told what to do. She does not need to be told how wrong or hurtful her actions were. She needs to be heard and helped through her journey.

dewt

But she does want opinions Dewt, does she not? She does want the "perceptions" of the people who post to her to be their honest perceptions, right?

I don't remember seeing anything disrespectful being spewed at Dylan since I've been here (almost a year), and because I happen to like Dylan I read most posts regarding her or to her.

And as far as disrespectful, that comment you just made to Bob was a DJ in my opinion. His feelings of when he does or does not post to others are his feelings. And the "lack of wisdom" in it is just your opinion as well. Isn't it Dewt? I thought that was a hurtful comment, but again that is only my perception and maybe even Bob would not see it that way.

I try to stay away from certain post because they upset me if people I care about start arguing. And I think that is a wise choice on my part, as I would either make it worse or become more upset.