Dewt, the principles you quote are good principles for our marriages, but we are not married to each other here. I agree that these are excellent principles to use in general life, but to a degree. We should never use those principles on a support board as an excuse to avoid telling someone the truth when they need to hear it. Certainly, tact is warranted, but there are many situtations where a well timed 2x4 saved the day, whether it be directed at a WS or a BS.

Saying nice empty words might make you feel warm and fuzzy inside, but just won't cut it sometimes when one needs a clearer light. Sometimes the most "compassionate" thing one can do is take a well timed 2x4 and apply it.

Good honest, straightforwardness should never be sacrificed on the alter of political correctness, nor should it be sacrificed to ease someone's queasy conscience. And that is how I see the crux of the issue.

This always comes up when someone is straightforward with a WS for some reason. Oddly, some feel that they have a special entitlement to not be offended. We don't see this sqealing and gnashing of the teeth when it is a BS getting a 2x4, who receive the most 2x4's by far.

In the specific thread at issue, it wasn't even the new WS who felt "offended," it was JimmyMac, so it is clear that this is not about anyone else except him. The starter of this thread felt like posters did not meet his personal standards of sensitivity; whereas the new WS had no such issue and was very appreciate of the advice he received. It was an extremely productive, calm thread. This entire blow up has nothing to do with the treatment of new people, but everything to do with JimmyMac injecting his own personal bias into the situation. In other words, he is DEMANDING that we all post in a manner that makes JimmyMac "comfortable" is all it comes down to.

The big problem with that is that we have no behavior police on this forum. Even though many seem to be competing for the ever vaunted position of Behavior Police, as you can see, not many are signing up to be dictated to. In fact, most folks seem quite resistant to the very idea of having another's idea of "sensitivity" forced upon them. Fascism appears not be taking off too well in this forum.

So maybe the lesson of the day should be: we can only control ourselves, we cannot control other people, places or things.

We can only control ourselves. We can only control ourselves. We can only control ourselves. We can only control ourselves.

To do otherwise would be to invite disappointment as a way of life, I fear.

Trying to control others only creates divisive threads like this that take away valuable time that could be devoted to helping the many hurting people on this forum. It is a crying shame we have to be distracted with this behavior cop crap. But that is the predictable outcome when one tries to control others.

Hopefully, we can take a lesson from this [on what NOT to do] and get back to what we came here for, helping people who are in great need.

I don't have much time for a reply but I have to address this...


I was not being sarcastic at all. I think Bob consistently shows excellent wisdom, gives great advice and I thought this was another example of that. I should go back and edit what I wrote so I'm not giving the wrong impression. Thanks for pointing that out, Weaver.

dewt

Dewt,
If we are going to look at this from the MB concept standpoint , where does The Policy of Radical Honesty come in?

Couldn't 2x4s (delivered of course w/o DJs, AOs or LBs) be considered the boards PORH?

As others have said, this thread is about communication - and people's individual perception of others' comments. We all have our own perception - and on a board such as this - certain nuances are not possible; tone of voice, body language, etc. - which can lead to skewed perceptions of what the comunicator "meant" by a statement. I think people need to ask for clarification if they are not sure (or are offended) by their perception of a statement.

Weaver,

I can't speak for her, nor say exactly why she would post. My point is more centered around why she wouldn't post. I know she posts elsewhere, where the 'behaviour cops' are more vigilant. She feels 'safer' there, and yet I can assure you that no one there is supportive in any way of her affair.

Melody, you said:


No, that's true. And perhaps by that reasoning, we are relieved of any responsibility to any code of conduct. My point is that whether these people are our spouses or not, how we treat them is going to have an effect. They may not be your foggy spouse, or my foggy spouse, but they are someone's foggy spouse and I personally think we should try to help them.

And certainly, a well timed 2x4 is often just what the doctor ordered. I'm a very good example of that. In fact, as an interesting historical aside, Dylan herself first introduced that term here on MB in 1999 in a post to, you guessed it, me. And those 2x4s helped me a GREAT deal.

The point here being that they were well timed. My issue is that very often these are NOT well timed, not thought out. They are reactive snipes made from an emotional place. Most certainly understandable, condsidering the mix of posters we have here, but hardly helpful.

And being right or wrong, truth or not, has little or nothing to do with it. These disrespectful judgements that we avoid levelling at our spouses, are they not based on truth? Don't we all have a valid point, even if it is disrespectful? The issue is not truth, right and wrong, it's helping to save marriages.

A wayward, smacked upside the head with the truth is no more likely to see it. He/she is more likely to be focused on the smack upside the head.

Melody, you said,


This has got nothing to do with political correctness or facism. It has to do with human behaviour and building marriages. THAT is the crux of the matter.

I still have not read the thread, and am not familliar with JimmyMac's story or posting patterns. I just agree, in a general way, with his position in the original post.

Fraggles,

I'm all for honesty. Totally. But honesty delivered in a DJ, SD, or AO is still a Lovebuster and still going to have predictable results on your typical WS.

I totally agree with you that Honesty delivered without LBs is a good thing. My issue is with the LBs that are often enough not fueled by a desire to be honest, but by a reaction to the posters own personal hurt.

And I also agree that this board is about communication. My comment to Bob, misinterpreted by Weaver is a perfect example. After her comment, I reread what I wrote and changed it. See, what good is a great message if it never reaches the recipient, or if the form in which it's delivered actually drives the recipient away?

dewt

Dewt,

I went back and read how you reworded your statement to Bob, and I can see it was me who interjected sarcasm onto it. Sarcasm wasn't your intent at all.

I have a blinking, blasted, eye splitting headache today so my perception is most likely a little askewed.

In other words I am taking things the wrong way. Good thing I asked about it, as Fraggles has said lest I continue with the misunderstanding. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You are incorrect.

I did not snipe. I did not post from an emotional reaction. I had a reason and a purpose with the newbie in mind.

My thought was well thought out (although no one has yet to ask me what my thought was before criticizing what I wrote).

Dewt, you are speaking about my intent without asking me about my intent, just as Jimmy did.

STOP using me and my methods or my style as a punching bag for what is wrong in YOUR relationship.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

But no one is saying that we are "relieved" of a code of conduct of behavior; you are taking my point to a ridiculous extreme. However, I would disagree with you that the conduct towards one's spouse must be exactly the same. We can say things to one another here that are best not said at home to a foggy spouse. Common sense dictates that different approaches are required for different relationships/situations. Even so, I do not view straightforward 2x4's as a "disrespectful judgement." We don't gloss over the truth with our spouse and we shoudn't do it here. We may approach it differently in our marriages, depending on the situation.


And whose idea of "help" would that be? I see some that beat around the bush when one clearly needs forthrightness, so it is clear we all have different ideas of what constitutes support.



But in whose opinion? Yours? I think what we think constitutes "helpfulness" varies from person to person. We can't appoint ourselves the arbiter of what constitutes "helpfulness" because it is a completely arbitrary and subjective judgement.

For example, in the thread in question, the WS recieved the help he needed and was not treated badly at all, yet JimmyMac himself took offense and deemed many responses as "unhelpful" because they did not meet his personal standards of senstitivity. Yet, the WS was not offended and found the advice most helpful. My point is that we have no Grand Arbiter of what constitutes "helpfulness" on this forum. I see many posts here where nice phony words are substituted for the truth and I deem them as "unhelpful." But my opinion is only that: my opinion. I would never be arrogant enough to believe I could DEMAND that others follow my style.


We can and should address bad behavior or sick rationalizations when we see them here. It is not a disrespectful judgement to point this out in this forum. Nice words simply will not cut it sometimes. Like I said earlier, it may make you feel warm and fuzzy inside but it helps no one.


Much better to be focused on that, that to enable them in their own sick rationalizations. We should never become enablers, there is no "compassion" in that. I have found, after being in AA for 20 years, that the most compassionate thing one can do with newcomers is to reject their sick rationalizations and insert some sanity into the discussion.They might not like it at first, but they sure begin to think. On the other hand, plying them with phony nice words acheives nothing good, but only reinforces their sick thinking.


It very much has to do with some folks trying to control the behavior of others and dictate standards of political correctness. That is the crux of the matter. Behavior cops come in all forms, and their efforts to dictate the behavior of others should never be rewarded.

We can see how effective JimmyMac has been trying to do this very thing on this forum. It is a crying shame that we have to deal with his very offensive attempts to dictate the behavior of others when there are people here who need real help. It might be more productive if he focused more on helping hurting folks on this forum than trying to control others.

It always comes back to this simple concept: we can't control people, places or things. We can only control ourselves.

The world would be a much better place if folks would stop worrying so much about fixing others and work on themselves, don't ya think? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Melody, I would like to have some of the stuff you are smoking. Could you send some over my way? I guess I better rename myself "Darth Jimmy" and work on perfecting my though control techniques. "Come to the dark side, my young apprentices..." (Hey, is LowOrbit wan Kenobi around?)

I didn't realize my posts made Melody so uncomfortable. (Gosh, I must be doing something right...) Every old time poster on this board is trying to influence behavior (including Melody, who is not hesitant to give specific instructions to everyone and anyone). If we weren't, we would simply write letters to ourselves.

[color:"navy"]Dewt, your above message was very very good.

And very very true how our reactions to posters is so IMPORTANT!

And on the issue of giving our spouses a second change;
of course we should.

Us BS also spoke marriage vows that we are to follow; 'for better or worse' and that applies to how we react if our mates have an EA or an actual PA.
(Which is right there with the 'Worse' heartaches we will ever experience in our lives.)

Forgiveness is a necessary gift in order to have a happy marriage; forgiveness of little as well as BIG things.

Sincerely, Julie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Taking cheap shots does nothing to defend your position, my friend. Perhaps you should apply some of that "sensitivity" you are trying to dictate to others to yourself? It's hard to take someone seriously who DEMANDS grand standards of sensitivity when he is nasty himself.

Instead, why not respond to the many valid points that have been made against your position? Can you not defend your postion?

And there is a huge difference in giving SOUGHT FOR advice on marital problems and trying to dictate your personal standards of sensitivity on others. I don't see old timers trying to dictate their sensitivity standards on others. They try to help folks understand and apply MB principles.

I would also add that trying to enforce speech codes is very much a trait of political correctness, ie: FASCISM.

BRAVO !

Pep

blink blink

Uh, Pep...

I have not read the thread that started this one. I'm pointing fingers at no-one. I'm not saying anything at all about you in particular nor anyone else in particular. My comments are directed entirely towards the issue itself; not any specific actions by any specific person. I don't know what you said nor who you said it too nor what you meant when you said it.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

dewt

Dewt said :


Do not forget, I am discussing what I personally said to the new MB member. This is personal, and it is about ME.

I did follow the rules of conduct as expressed in this site's TOS.

I am responsible for following TOS, and if I did not follow this board's code of conduct, I would have been told so by the moderators.

I was not told so, therefore I did follow the code of conduct. Just not the way Jimmy would have liked me to.

Pep

Dewt said:

Then why comment at all if you are not aware of what is being discussed?

Pep

Jimmy Mac wrote:


Jimmy....

I would like to ask you what your intent was by writing this to Mel.

I am giving you the benifit of the doubt that your intent was NOT to insult or harm.

The benifit of the doubt Jimmy .... and asking for clarification Jimmy ....something I did not get from you.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[color:"navy"]Pep and ML, you sure seem to like to argue

You don't seem to know when to STOP trying to get YOUR POINT across if anyone's opinions are DIFFERENT than yours!

Just MHO. I hope you don't start attacking me now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Sincerely, Julie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I see it as a discussion not necessarily arguing.

If someone quoted something you said and blatantly criticized your intent, would you just walk away and say "whatever..."?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[color:"navy"]Um, I guess...whatever.

Did you read what I wrote earlier about giving our mates second chances? (Yes, I thought the remark on the thread in consideration, was a bit of a flippant remark.)

I don't really think it is hardly considered a choice, as our marriage vows are 'for better or for worse', for the BS AND the WS.

An affair is, for sure, considered 'the worse' times a marriage can ever face.

We can never have a healed marriage, without having a forgiving spirit towards our unfaithful spouse.

Sincerely, Julie <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I am waiting for Jimmy to talk to me and not talk about me .... and YOUR comments seems fairly disrespectful, since this is not about you but about something between Jimmy and myself.

I will stop talking about it when I have nothing left to say, that is, if I have your permission to do so

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />