Thank you Julie, I appreciate your comments. A lot is to be said for forgiveness.

Pep, I'm commenting because I have an opinion on an issue and I'm feeling hopeful that I can bring some of the defining tenets of this site to bear on this problem. Ideally we can discuss it, come to some sort of amicable resolution and move on to the next conversation.

I am specifically avoiding pointing fingers because I feel it is a pervasive issue and getting wrapped up in he said/she said and what was meant over a specific comment is to miss the point of the general topic.

Jimmy, in his original post quoted some people on a thread that I did not read. None of my comments refer to that thread or any other specific thread, but are all in response to the meat of his original thread which was:


And I stand behind this statement %100. I don't see it as controlling, facsist or offensive in any way shape or form. I feel that it accurately and fairly raises an issue that needs to be addressed. (over and over again, apparently)

Melody, I am not in favor of molly coddling the waywards or glossing over the truth. I'm not in favor of enabling affairs, or allowing sick justifications to continue. I believe in truth and all my experience says the road to recovery is a tough one that needs integrity, patience and perseverance and above all, an accurate and honest assesment of the challenges involved.

What I'm saying, is that with the above in mind, we should refrain from lovebusting, disrespectful judging, selfish demands and angry outbursts.

That's my argument and I'm sticking to it. And it's not really even MY argument. It's the stance that I have to choose because I've agreed to adopt the Harley principles as they relate to relationships.

You said:

Not completely. My stance, my points and my cites are drawn directly from Harley principles. They may be arbitrary and subjective, but I'm sure that they were put together based on a great deal of thought, experience and research.

Harley says:

In this context, the number of waywards who are driven away by 'gratuitous sniping' would be an excellent indicator. The fact that this thread keeps reappearing under different posters and forms is an indicator.

Also, Harley puts forward these questions:

Obviously these are questions that relate to a spousal relationship, but I feel that the concept is transferable.

I invite you all to participate in a little refresher... here is the link to Harley's page on Disrespectful Judgements. He is pretty clear that it's not only not effective but also a form of abuse.

I don't understand the resistance to the idea of applying his principles beyond the confines of our own Plan As.

And I still don't get the fascim references. It's a form of government, no?

dewt

BlessedTIME, this is what Pep said on the original thread:



Are you sincerely saying that you think this is flippant? You don't see it at all as sincere and congratulatory?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Julie wrote:

yes, I agree.

and the WS also needs to have a forgiving heart toward the BS .... and a part of that begins with gratitude that the BS is offering a second chance.

being grateful for you spouse .... IS what I said to the WS

The essence of my "offending" comment, according to Jimmy..... is being one of the lucky ones with a spouse offering forgiveness.... MY high crime here on MB!

BUT no one has asked me what my intent was ..... including YOU!~

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Dewt said:



Jimmy did point fingers .... and THAT is my point.... he pointed his finger AT ME and I have the right to discuss what was said about me ...

WHY not discuss that now?

That my words were interpreted as "sniping" without asking me FIRST about my intent?

Want a good discussiona about giving someone the benifit of the doubt before trying to tear them apart?

Why aren't you defending me?

Pep

Heck, I'm not even defending Jimmy... just parts of his original post.

Pep, I have a great respect for you. Since I had not read the post from which you were quoted, I did not feel the right to defend or attack either you or anybody.

However, after reading your most recent replies, I'd like to just say that I agree with what you are saying. (How it was said in the original post is beyond me to address or comment on - simply because I am ignorant)

And in respect to that and on a personal note, my biggest hope is that my wife, as a former betrayed, can find forgiveness for me. My second biggest hope is that one day she will accept and appreciate my forgiveness of her.

I want to reinforce that I do not support any attacks on anybody.

dewt

This is funny to me:
"getting wrapped up in he said/she said and what was meant over a specific comment is to miss the point of the general topic."

Are you aware that I asked that if anyone could explain to me what JimmyMac saw in MY SPECIFIC COMMENT to please start a thread?

Are you aware that JimmyMac started this thread about THE GENERAL TOPIC of posting to WS's?

Are you aware that JimmyMac seemingly credited me with suggesting this thread topic? Also, he never did explain why he thought what he did about my comment.

That's why this....
"getting wrapped up in he said/she said and what was meant over a specific comment is to miss the point of the general topic."
....is so funny to me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Ah-HA!!!!

So YOU are behind all this!!!

dewt <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

"In this context, the number of waywards who are driven away by 'gratuitous sniping' would be an excellent indicator."

I don't think it would be a good indicator at all. Many of those waywards are really looking for something like TOW. The waywards (and betrayeds) who are serious tend to stay even though the truth is painful at first, or they find another site whose principles they are more comfortable with.

Dewt said:

Isn't Jimmy trying to straighten me out?

Pep

No I wasn't behind this, but I was supposed to be! And it was supposed to be ALL ABOUT ME! MY comment. MY learning. ME, ME, ME, I tell you....ALL ABOUT ME!!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

But, alas, it's been all about the WS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> and boo hoo hoo.

Heh heh heh, I did sneak in a post about MY comment. It was answered too---on page 1! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Turning thread back over to the WS issues again now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

****Edited because it looks confusing----the <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> and boo hoo hoo is not about the WS's, it's my feeble attempt at a pretend pity party. Guess I'm only good at the real ones?

Hi Suzet

My post was in no way accusatory. I caveated it saying I spoke only for myself.

In short, I used a lot of words to say that FWS and BS have different attitudes to WS, which we already knew.

I know how hard earned the F is in FWS and commend them for so doing. I'm married to one in fact ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I do not know of any FWS who condones or supports infidelity.

Awwww.... there there.... {{{{{LovingBoundries}}}}}

Pep... you too... {{{{{Pepperband}}}}}}

Maybe Jimmy's original post was an effort to straighten us out. I'm left wondering if he hadn't quoted examples, would his message have gotten through without being detracted from by the reactions it inspired. In other words, if his post hadn't been perceived as a disrespectful judgement, would the message have gotten through? Hmmmmm....

dewt

Dewt said:


again, incorrect assumption .... speaking for myself

I do not object to Jimmy having an opinion of what I said, and expressing his opinion about what I said .... However, I want him to discuss it with me personally .... and ask me about it before he uses my words as an example of "gratituitous sniping"... Is that an unreasonable request?

I want to speak with JimmyMack "mano a mano" and have a conversation !

If he does decide to talk to me rather than post about me, I would be most grateful.

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

As I said before, being forthright is not a "disrespectful judgment," it is often a necessity. The way we relate to our spouse is obviously going to be very different to how we relate to folks on this forum. The issue is that you cannot enforce your standard on others. Harley doesn't try and neither should you.

You said:


Well, no. Harley does not set a standard for “helpfulness,” he sets principles….to be used in marriages. You have given the principles, which we all agree on; but the point is what constitutes "helpfulness." What we don't agree on is the application of principles. My idea of "helpfulness" is dramatically different from yours and we should respect those differences rather than trying to force others to comply with our style. Your idea of "helpfulness" is no better than mine - or anyone elses'.

All situations are different, and folks will respond to situations according to their own style and understanding of the situation. The way you might respond to a given situation is probably not the way I would, because we are different and have different things to offer. However, you are not in a position to dictate your style to others. To even try would be arrogant.

Harley says:

And folks should ask their spouses that very question, but we are not married here, so your context is inaccurate. No one has control over who leaves or doesn't leave. I see just as much, if not more, gratuituous sniping directed towards their victims, the BS. Still, if one chooses to leave, that is entirely their decision.

I would also add that this thread is a "disrespectful judgment" against the BS' who posted to the WS in question. It’s intent was to "educate" and lecture others for not meeting Jimmy's personal standard of sensitivity. That is a HUGE lovebuster, yet I don't see you pointing that out. Nor do I see you ever pointing out hateful statements made by WS to BS, often you sympathize with the WS instead of the victim.



Obviously these are questions that relate to a spousal relationship, but I feel that the concept is transferable.

I invite you all to participate in a little refresher... here is the link to Harley's page on Disrespectful Judgements. He is pretty clear that it's not only not effective but also a form of abuse.[/quote]

And I would invite you to begin to apply these principles to everyone, not just select posters. A good start would be the originator of this post, which is a disrespectful judgment against BS.’


One of the key traits of fascist governments is suppression of opposing speech. It is a fascist trait to attempt to dictate speech – or sensitivity – codes to others.
This would be an accurate description of the disease of political correctness.

And who is being "argumentative?" hmmmmmmmmmm <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I would only comment that one is never obligated to stay with an adulterous spouse. It is an entirely personal decision and is never an entitlement. If the WS is not grateful then I question their sincerity in their remorse. Part of true remorse is being grateful for the second chances you have recieved and realizing they are not entitlements.

There is a reason that counselors don't jump in at the first session and tell the WS what an a**hole he/she is. The WS generally is in no mental state to tolerate it, and there is an inordinate risk of alienating the WS.

Please, please understand that I agree with what the BSs are saying...what I am suggesting is that you should exercise some caution in talking with a newbie WS.

PEPPER: If someone would have told me immediately after D-Day how lucky I was to have my W, I think I would have thrown-up. You might be failing to appreciate the *tremendous* amount of resentment that some WSs have toward their BSs. My response right after D-Day would have been something on the order of, "My W? You mean that insensitive, uncaring b****? You don't know sh*t."

LOVING: I didn't want to get into a specific discussion. I understand you were trying to help and you did it with best intentions. So, I am not attacking you, but rather what you wrote. [As a pre-emptive post, I would not have done this without LOVING's repeated requests...]

You said, "If you don't invite her [to this board] and instead keep this to yourself, you would just be continuing selfish behavior. Which will you choose?"

First, it is not selfish to ask for help, as this sentence implies.

Second, it is not selfish to get help without the BS. This, IMHO, was what was so objectionable.

For a newbie WS after D-day, it is quite possible that the worst thing in the world is to have BS listening in. A WS has a lot of stuff to vent about, and he desparately needs to get it out. Having the BS looking over the WS's shoulder can hinder the free flow from the WS. (Of course, the WS's statements will be stupid and silly, and those statements should be critiqued.)

Third, your post attempts to "shame" him if he posts here without his BS. The easiest way for WS to avoid that shame is simply not to post. Since following the path of least resistance is one of the hallmarks of a WS, it seems reasonable that he won't post any more.

Fourth, the pre-supposition that the board is the fountain of knowledge is a real stretch. At best, we can point out some inconsistencies, make some general suggestions and get the guy/gal to go for some real help.

Fifth, the line, "Which will you choose?" is ludicrous. The only thing missing was the statement, "the path of wickedness or the path of righteousness?" at the end.

Jimmy said:


Really? Thrown up.


OK ... tell me about it.


and today how do you feel about your wife?

Are you lucky to have her?

Is she lucky to have you?

Pep

Thanks for responding JimmyMac <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> .

I didn't say it was selfish to ask for help, I said it was selfish to not share MB with his BW who is probably in at least as much pain and confusion as he is. Would you have seen it differently if I had stated clearly that IN MY OPINION it would be selfish to withhold it from her?

I believe that the BS is entitled to know where and from whom the WS is getting help for the BS's marriage.

I had no idea I was "shaming" the poster. I wonder if he felt the same way you do about it. I hope he tells me if he did.

I believe that the info pages are indeed a fountain of knowledge. If you don't believe that too, then why are you here instead of at another marriage building site that is more suited to you?

"Which will you choose" had nothing to do with righteous or wicked. I was just curious if the poster was for it, against it, or undecided at the time.

Thanks again JimmyMac for sharing your view. So far, no one else has expressed their agreement but I will definitely keep this in mind if I post to another WS.

First off, we are not counselors here and secondly, you do not know what a WS can or can't tolerate "mentally." You can only speak for yourself. No one called the man any names, that is your own exaggerated spin to justify your personal position. He was not offended, so this is all about YOU - not him. You can see for yourself that the WS was not "alienated."


And I would suggest that you can only control yourself. You are not in a position to dictate your own personal standards of sensitivity to others. We are grownups here and perfectly capable of discerning where "caution" is warranted. Ya can't control people, places or things, Jimmy. If you don't ever learn that, then I fear disappointment will be your lot in life.

So glad to see a topic like this discussed. Thank you Jimmy for bringing it up. I have been disheartened many times by how folks respond to the newbie WS.

I have always figured if I was in an affair and wanted to stay there, a MARRIAGE BUILDING sight would be the furthest from my mind or heart. I would probably be more inclined to look for sights on how to keep an affair going to keep it hiden or how to get out of my marriage.

I think if a WS comes here and braves a post, even with probably faulty thinking that they really want help--Even if they are acting out, even if they are still in the affair, even if they haven't told their spouse even if they say that the OW/OM is the love of their life....etc...I think they must be here for help. I think they must have a flicker of hope that there is a way out of the affair and a way to save their marriage.

It makes me sad ever time I see that flicker stomped out. Not saying we shouldn't rough them up once we get to know them though. I just think some gentler understanding when they first arrive could very possibly help them out of the affair instead of drive them away.

Just my humble opinion of course though.

Tiggy