JM

Good post...although I have been treated well. I have seen some of "us" get pulverized
H

PEPPER & LOVING: I am lucky to have a W who would put up with me generally, and especially put up with me during the A. Imagine a mean, irrational and angry Jimmy Mac, with no compassion for anyone but himself. "Psycho liar" would be an accurate description of me during the A.

I am NOT saying your advice was bad. What you said was good, reasonable advice. But, a newbie WS isn't a reasonable person.

(My W tells me that she is lucky to have me, but I am sure I got the better deal out of this M.)

MELODY: I raised three girls. I am well aware that I can't control people or "bend them to my will," although my daughters seem to have little difficulty getting whatever they want from me.

This thread seems to have stuck in a groove of 'how NOT to handle the new WS'. I'd be interested to hear ideas of how people think such posters SHOULD be handled? Any suggestions? Jimmy Mac?

The fear seems to be that tough talk will scare them away. Will it? I would hazard a guess that, for each WS who takes offence at the toughness of the responses, there's another who is actually LOOKING for such firmness. Most human beings know at some level - even if it's suppressed and subconscious - that they are doing harm to themselves by being unfaithful. So I wonder if it is entirely accidental that they post on a site - and on a infidelity forum within that site - where the slightest research would show a hard-line attitude to betrayal? I wonder how many are looking for exactly the kind of tough love that they get.

And for each WS who takes umbrage and leaves, does this necessarily mean that they will reject all that was said to them? How many of us angrily reject unwelcome advice, only to turn it over in our minds and, in time, slowly come to accept it?

If the unwelcome advice was never given, we might never reach that enlightment under our own steam. Was the period of angry repudiation worth suffering for the growth that it engendered?

It strikes me that, until the moment of exposure, the WS's only source of advice about his / her A has usually been someone who approves of the infidelity, who supports the WS's rationalisations, and who encourages the WS to maintain his /her foggy thinking. The OP, in other words. Under those circumstances, are there ANY words we can say which will not be shocking and unwelcome?

TogatherAlone

"Aren't you one lucky guy to be given a second chance by your wife!"

Color me ignorant...I happen to think that this would be what a WS needs to hear. Afterall, shouldn't that be one of their first concerns if they are determined to work toward saving their marriage? A truly contrite WS would want forgiveness and a second chance from their spouse. This comment should literally be music to their ears...IF forgiveness and a second chance is what they want.

Now, an unrepentent WS would come on and post ad nauseum about ME ME ME...MY wants...MY wants....MY wants...and it could rain pigs before they would acknowledge that they should even seek forgiveness. Those are the ones that still go on and on about their affair partner and how much they miss them...and what sole (think bottom of shoe) mates they are....and how they are so confused about what to do.

Well, I happen to think it's not the purpose of the board to "convince" someone that they need to leave the affair person and return to their spouse. The purpose of the board is to help the ones that has already DECIDED to end the affair and have taken action and ENDED the affair

I don't usually post to the ones that are not repentent..it seems like wasted words. They leave the affair when they are ready and not before.

JMHO
committed

TogetherAlone, your brilliant posts never fail to make me think. I so enjoy your intellect. I have been thinking about what you said all the way home from work and would like to give my thoughts.

First off, I have an admission to make. I relate much more to our WS' than I can a BS. That is because I am also a former infidel. As a recovering alcoholic and former professional liar, I know them, because I used to think just like them. I understand them because we are fellow addicts. Although the source of our fogged out brain was different, I very much relate to them. Much more so than a BS.

That being said, I have been in AA for 20 years on April 27th. I have sponsored lots of women over the years and was a circuit speaker for several years. AA very much believes in and practices tough love. There is never any molly coddling or political correctness foolishness. We tells it like it is. And that is why the program is so successful.

An alcholic is pretty much assured that he is amongst fellow bullsh**ers so he quickly learns not to even try his bullsh**, because you can't bullsh** a bullshi**er. When they quickly learn it won't fly, they knock it off. That crap might work out in the world at large with non-addicts, but it sure doesn't there.

But I have learned one simple, but important, truth over the years: wild horses could not drag away those who truly want help. It is only the ones who weren't really serious about changing that left in a huff. The latter looked for any and all excuses to never come back because they did not want to change. But of course, it was always "someone elses fault" they were "run off." NEVER THEIR OWN! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> A bullsh** artist always finds someone else to blame, and that is what we often see here.

I have seen lives go through dramatic changes because others cared enough to tell them what they NEEDED TO HEAR rather than what they WANTED to hear. I believe the ones who are truly compassionate are the ones who will take a risk and tell a person what they NEED to hear. The ones who don't care, simply them what they want to hear at the expense of the truth. Those folks are not the friends here and help no one.

The bottom line is that folks who really want to change are not going let anything run them off; those who don't will look for any and every excuse to continue their sick behavior. If folks are too "sensitive" to hear what they need to hear, they probably don't have what it takes to change anyway.

Nevermind.

I think this is a true statement.

Susan

Oh how true!!!!

Dis here Recovery stuff tain't no job for SISSIES! Dis is some tuff stuff!! (said with my best Texas twang) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by Tiggy

Ohhhh puhleeeezz.

No one claimed to have the right to decide who could or could not recover,,nor who was too sensitive. Nor did I read anyone equating themself with God.

Getting alittle carried away? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Jimmy, you say this:


and on your opening post you said this:

"gratuitous sniping"

and then sited a quote from me as "an example"

so, I remain somewhat confused as to just what you are saying...

But, nevermind.... Jimmy, what is important is that you and your family are happy and you are back in love with your lucky wife

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Post deleted by Tiggy

Tiggy said:


I know, I feel so ashamed to have verbally bashed a guy by telling him he is one lucky guy to be given a second chance by his wife .... what was I thinking?

Tiggy ...Can you help me reform my evil ways?

Pep

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I can! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

You bet your [censored] I was "labled" a drunk at my first meeting, because IT WAS THE TRUTH. It was the TRUTH, not nice empty words, that yanked me out of that black hole of misery I was trapped in. That is why we are at AA, we don't go there for princess training or pedicures, we go there for help with our ALCOHOLISM. We are to carry the message of TRUTH, not the message of tell-them-whatever-they-want-to-hear. We don't enable people or encourage them in their own delusions. They can be enabled and enouraged in their own delusions at home - and usually ARE.

I was never treated "hostily," people loved me enough to tell me the truth. That is not hostile. And because they cared, they cared enough to NOT tolerate bullsh** You are equating being truthful with being "hostile" and that says alot about your own personal bias.

And that is why AA is so successful. Nor did I have to be shamed into anything, I had plenty enough shame for 10 people because I should have been ashamed! And was.

I don't know what AA and Alanon you have "been around," but this alcoholic is very thankful that she never encountered any of the so-called "groups" that sacrifice tough love for nice words.

And I will say again, in 20 years of going to AA meetings, wild horses couldn't run off a person who was SERIOUS about the program, but just about anything could run off someone who was NOT serious. And that is exactly what we see here. They were just looking for an excuse to be run off in the first place. If one leaves, they have no one except themselves to blame.


No one EVER said it was "always the best way," but it is in many cases where the person is foggy. The bottom line is that folks will respond to posters how they see fit. What makes this place great is a diversity of opinion and approaches. I will always respond in the manner I see fit, just as you should do the same. We cannot dictate our personal standards of sensitivity to others. Sorry...

You SHOULD feel hopeless if you would allow your "sensitivities' to stand in the way of confronting your problem. Because you are the impediment; you are your own worst enemy and only have yourself to blame.


I believe this is called the BLAME GAME. No one has the POWER to recover except the addict himself. Others don't "judge" who recovers. If one CHOOSES to let their tender sensibilities stand in the way, that is their choice entirely. BUT, they only have themselves to blame and no one else.

Again, if someone is too "sensitive" for well intentioned, much needed straight talk, they probably don't have what it takes to get better anyway. A person who is serious about recovery would never let that stop them.

I would also add that alcoholics are probably, collectively speaking, the MOST sensitive, self centered people on the face of the earth. The ones who are serious about recovery never let it stop them.

[color:"red"]~LOL~ [/color]

[color:"blue"]if that aint the truth! [/color]

[color:"purple"] .... I know you can reform me coz you've seen how reeeeely BAD I am ! [/color]

[color:"brown"] lead the way sista ! [/color]

I am your willing student <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Pot...meet kettle. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Follow me!

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

P.S. You are still the best!

Pep has some evil ways? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

I love your bawdy BAD side...cuz I know your reeeely good side...your true intent...and it's awlllll good!

She's gotta heart big as TEXAS!

Suz <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />