Am I in Plan B?

Not quite, as there is contact, he has called ~5X yesterday and 2-3X Sun. I only spoke briefly to him, once saying that I was very sorry that he missed S7 and us, and I am, but there was nothing that I can do about that. I also calmly commented that I have been telling him for years what I need from him and have been constantly ignored. ME: "At this point, I should, AT LEAST, be able to get some honesty!" Not exactly verbatim and this was all said very nicely.

Should I go dark? I can, and it might be better for ME. I am sad, but more than a little relieved right now. When he calls and emails and is sad, it makes me sad. I want to check up on him, but I haven't.

I gave him 3 options the other night when he left. He chose to leave, but I wasn't sure that the options were altogether fair. He could start telling me truths, that I knew to be truth (ie. about the original tape, about interactions with coworkers), send an email resignation to his job (I knew he wouldn't do that and not sure that was a fair option. Told him that obviously his A? was with someone at work and I could never assume NC. And that I could not trust him right now, AT ALL, to tell me the truth about anything/anybody, unless I could SEE it). OR that he could pack. He whined, but he packed.

I am having a very hard day, and would feel much better if my plan was more solid!

If I am to do Plan B, my letter would be what? He will not admit to any inappropriate behavior, or EA, or that he was actually talking to someone on that tape- He was!

The LIES are my biggest problem. All he ever says is that I should trust him, I should believe him. He won't admit to lying even when caught. He will say it was an "exageration" or omission. Or he really didn't mean it like it sounded. Sometimes that may be the case, but often, just straight out lies too. How do I address this in a letter, without LBs. He says that he hates to be called a liar (which I really don't say, try to call the behavior, not label the person)- well he IS one.

So confused and really down today, I really hope that I get some responses.

jls

Am I in Plan B?

You are not in plan B until you do a plan B letter, and until you cease contact with him. Think carefully about this, because if you do the letter and then continue contact, he won't believe you. You will become what he is - someone that says one thing, and does another.

Only go to plan B if you are ready for it, and can accept that you may never have normal contact with him again. You need to be to that point when you start your formal plan B.

Also remember that the MB methods will either restore your marriage, or end it. Are you ready to end it?

Plan B works to force a decision, and we cannot be sure of the outcome. You need to realize it could go either way.


I gave him 3 options the other night when he left. He chose to leave, but I wasn't sure that the options were altogether fair. He could start telling me truths, that I knew to be truth (ie. about the original tape, about interactions with coworkers), send an email resignation to his job (I knew he wouldn't do that and not sure that was a fair option. Told him that obviously his A? was with someone at work and I could never assume NC. And that I could not trust him right now, AT ALL, to tell me the truth about anything/anybody, unless I could SEE it). OR that he could pack. He whined, but he packed.

He made his choice, and it was to leave. It is easier for him to go away than to be honest.

You made a choice too. You expressed that you would rather be without him than to live with dishonesty. If that is the truth, stick to your decision. You can plan A for a while apart, but if the pain is too great, and if you realize and accept that it could mean Divorce, you may be ready for plan B.

I am having a very hard day, and would feel much better if my plan was more solid!

Think about these things. There is no way you can understand how it will feel if it becomes final, but spend time thinking about what changes there will be. It is different for you than for SVB1, because she has no children. This is not somthing that you ought to decide in a week, or a month.


If I am to do Plan B, my letter would be what? He will not admit to any inappropriate behavior, or EA, or that he was actually talking to someone on that tape- He was!

Your letter would tell him what you need - Look up the sample letters, and insert your needs in the appropriate places.
Some of them could be:
Honesty
Commitment
Counseling
and so on.

The LIES are my biggest problem. All he ever says is that I should trust him, I should believe him. He won't admit to lying even when caught. He will say it was an "exageration" or omission. Or he really didn't mean it like it sounded. Sometimes that may be the case, but often, just straight out lies too. How do I address this in a letter, without LBs. He says that he hates to be called a liar (which I really don't say, try to call the behavior, not label the person)- well he IS one.

YOu can't get him to see things your way. Adolf Hitler always believed he was right - it was everyone else that had the problem, not him. I am not comparing your H to Hitler, but only the mindset. It may be that he will never admit fault, and never change. These are things you need to keep in mind as you decide what to do. Sometimes plan B will get them to thinking, and they will examine their thoughts and feelings. Sometimes they are not willing to look inside.


So confused and really down today, I really hope that I get some responses.

No matter what, this will not be easy. You already know about dificulty though, I think you have what it takes to do what is needed.

I also recommend prayer. I can't remember you saying what your beliefs are (I haven't read your threads in depth) but I recommend it from personal experiance.

You don't need to decide about plan B right away. Continue plan A type behavior until you know.

Here are some things that may help -

Patient1's tips from Divorce busting

All the best -

SS

SS,

Thanks so much for your reply. I did plan A too long before and was never ready for B, I think that I am close now, if not already.

I know so well that these decisions should not be made lightly or quickly. My D?-day (never admitted by him) was June 2003. Bad behavior from both of us up til then also.

My children are the reason it has taken me so long to get to this point! I do know that he loves his kids dearly, also. I honestly live for my children and make every decision that will effect them carefully. At this point, I feel as if I have had a few small "breakdowns" and have been heading for a big one if nothing is done to change the situation. My emotional and mental health are at stake here. If I am not healthy, then I cannot care for my children.

He called today. I spoke with him a little, Tried to explain that I am not just mad and will "get over it". Tried to tell him that I cannot make him do anything, but his dishonesty and distance have been killing my love for him. I told him that I do not want a divorce, but I cannot and will not live with someone who cannot be honest with me. He asked what he needs to do and I responded that I gave him his choices the other nite. I also told him that I gave him many choices over the years.

I will look up some plan B letters later today. And think much more about this, of course.

Just trying to get things done and get through the day. Gardened a little, fixed a fence/gate between pasture and woods. Been trying to keep up with housework. Did Dino Day at S7 2nd grade yesterday and have fieldtrip with D14 tomorrow. Doing better than ever before when going thru separation/breakups. That has always been hard for me.

Thanks again,
jls

I would STOP ALL relationship talk..

you are going in circles...
it is clear that the majority of people that are married value and expect their partners to value honesty in their marriage...

he is not dumb
he chooses otherwise and he is dragging you in to believing that unacceptable should be acceptable..
time for the you to stop playing the prosecuter.....
and time for the prosecution to rest....

be pleasant pleasant when he calls..but perhaps a little to busy..
skip some calls..

it's one thing for him to be out
it's another for him to have such full access to you that he knows exactly where and what you are doing..
time for him to taste sourness of the wine he has been fermenting with his actions...
be a little less available..

invite him over for dinner with kids...have the home look great...cook something he likes...
you look smashing...
then send him away...let him feel the stark reality...

have him baby sit while you go out without divulging all the details of where you are going...

he needs to know his game of cloak and dagger is a serious one...
let him feel what it is like to be you..
in small innocent doses...
and the whole time be sweet charming and even flirty if you can tolerate it...... and glad to hear from him..but a little too distracted to be too interested in him and his current "issues"....

steller plan A for two more weeks....
then strick plan B....
NO relationship talk...

ARK^^

I will print that out ark. I have always loved your advice/posts.

Be back later after grocery shopping and D14 riding lesson.

Thank you SO much,

jls

I think Ark^^ is on target, as usual.

Concentrate on making, and running a plan for a few week. See how you feel, and what he does.

SS

Ummmmm...Plan A is supposed to be followed by Plan B. How long was your Plan A, how many times did you do it, and what does it consist of?

Relationship talk and ultimatums, by the way, usually are not part of Plan A.



"Breakdowns" are not part of Plan A either. They are high-maintenance for a WS who has not bought into any maintenance at all, at this point.

I don't know your story, but it doesn't sound like this is Plan A at all -- it sounds like emotional drama and demands. Plan A is more than tolerating an intolerable situation. It is actually a strategic plan that must be adhered to carefully if it is to end the affair. If it doesn't end the affair, it is followed by a strict Plan B.

From what you've said so far, it sounds like it is likely to be followed by a messy Plan B that is broken repeatedly -- since Plan A sounds like it has been broken repeatedly.

You are sorta' right A.M.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I didn't do Plan A at first either. I was too hurt and distraught- really in a "funk", depressed. Then we went to MC, only a few times. And I kept studying here, then did a pretty good Plan A for at least 3-4 months. Then I fell, and went back for a few months, And back and forth for the last ,umm, 1-1 1/2 year. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Throughout his time, yes there was some drama, but not too much. And R talks, but only sporadically. I knew that I shouldn't nag him about it.
I kept toying with the idea of Plan B, but did not feel strong enuf and knew that I / it would fail. I have also been so worried about my kids thru all of this. My D14, who is not his but knows that he has been there for her since she was 4 1/2, also has a biodad who has nothing to do with her. I worry so much about her issues with all of this.

I also worried because he still will not admit to ANY wrongdoings, ever. I really don't know that there was an A, just that he was talking to a woman (on phone?) when he was in the car and I taped him. He has always said that I was crazy to think that. I had the tape cleaned up and there is a woman's voice in the background answering him, faint but definite. I have had this confirmed recently. He maintains that he was talking to himself. Even that, with the content of what he waid, was very hurtful to me. He doesn't "remember" saying most of it. He admits that it "sounds" as if he were talking to someone, he was addressing himself as "you"- ie. "You need to see it from my perspective".

Anyway, I am trying to ready myself for Plan B, just confused about how to go about it, as there can be no exposure, I don't know who she was. I don't know whether I should address this wole thing as an A, as he admits nothing and I am not sure that it was an A. Recently, I found out that he lies about conversations and interactions (how much and what kind) with coworkers all the time, esp. women. I found out that he flirts often, won't admit that it is flirting either. He whispers and giggles with women and tells them that they are pretty... He says just being nice, but before I confronted him with what I knew, he was adament that he doesn't even talk to women, only about work. Well, that was on my other thread...

Oh and I didn't "break down" in front of him, at least not often. Except at the very beginning.

Open to more advice. Always.

Thanks,

jls

Going to bed and bunping this for tomorrow.

Have to get up early and feed/turn out horses - going on fieldtrip with D. H will be here in morning to take S to school, as I have to leave too early. Trash is out at curb, house is pretty darn clean, clothes for S set out...I plan to put on makeup and look as good as reasonably can for going on a water-testing fieldtrip.

Taking your advice to heart, ark!! Plan A, here I go again - 2 weeks of best me and then -oh boy, you are gonna' miss me, baby. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

G'nite all,
jls

I may just keep shamefully bumping this until I get some more responses!

Anyone, anyone at all???? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

How is your plan A going..

and write your plan B letter now so that people can review it....and it will be perfect...

ARK^^

I was so happy to see MY thread on top this morning. Usually it is on page 2 by now!!!

Thanks ark^^, have I told you lately that you are great.

Plan A is going pretty good, I think. H came and took S7 to school yesterday morn and I was NICE!! I went on fieldtrip with D14 and had to leave early.

Will write more later as I have to do that (take S to school) right now too!!

jls

H is coming for dinner. I can't write much, have to clean some more.

I was really down today and he didn't call but once. That made it worse. Plus i know him, he gets sad/sorry and then mad. I figured he was getting to the mad part.

Well, gonna go put make-up on and clean more. Be back later

jls

Sooooo,

Tell me a little about the relatinoship you too have right now.

Do you both try to be respectful, but the feeliings are such that it is hard to be for more than a day or two.

Then, an arguement, and the cycle repeats?

Or is it mostly good most of the time?

SS

jlseagull - I feel like I know exactly where you are. You know your H had an affair (at least I assume that you have the evidence you need) and he won't come clean. Even though my H has admitted to the actual affair, he admits to nothing else. If I push he will give me tidbits of information that he already knows that I kind of know. I know what it feels like to just want the lies to stop and to just want to be done. You want to be done, one way or the other you want the "not knowing" phase to be over. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is what I feel.

I'm sorry this is so tough. I'm sorry that there are so many selfish people out there that really just don't get it when they hurt someone. It is like they have an emotional void. I wish I had answers for you, but I don't. I wish I could make you feel better, but I'm in a very similar situation. I'm on the verge of believing that this marriage of mine is really nothing more than an illusion that needs to go away so I can move on. You and I deserve more than crumbs and I hope that we can find that someday.

(((((((Hugs to you from a far away friend)))))))))))))))

Hi peeps.

Can't really write much 'cause h is spending the night. I have to take D14 to airport at 5:30 AM and didn't want to wake uo S7, so I figured this would be ok in my Plan A, and maybe SF, since that and admiration are H's top needs.

SS,

I would like to go in depth into the R that we have right now, but long explanation. Basicly, if I never ask for anything or say anything that can be considered "critical" to my H, all is fine, to him anyway = "critical" includes comments from me like "Boy, those kids are driving me crazy today". But "we" fight at the drop of a hat, even if I removed all the hats in the house... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

SG,
You probably don't remember, but I wrote to you on your 1st? thread. I am the one who taped my H talking "to himself" in his car. Long story, maybe I can link other thread(S) sometime. Even if my H had no type of A, he has lied so much and refused to meet my ENs for so long. He is definitely not willing to be totally intimate in this M. I am very alone in my M, and getting more depressed day by day.

Anyhoo, gonna' go meet those needs... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

jls

But "we" fight at the drop of a hat, even if I removed all the hats in the house...

Someone has to break the cycle, or there will be no recovery. It will not be your H, so that leaves you.

Counseling would usually be a starting point for doing this. I have not read enough to know if you have tried it yet.

This is not a simple case where you can say "OK, from now on we'll do things differently. It will take sustained effort for probably a year or longer. You will often fail, and need to start over.

Your H has problems - all men do. (OK their may be some perfect ones, but I haven't met them yet. If one of those reads this, just act sumg, and keep reading.)

I have come to know that we can't change our partner, we can only change ourselves, and hope they respond to those changes.

At this point in time, I would work on maintaining peace. Get a standard answer to give back to him. " Sorry we disagree, but you have a right to your feelings, lets not argue about it."

I am not sure what would fit you, but think about it and come up with something that will, then STICK TO IT ALWAYS.

Look inside, and change what you can change. Work on you. If it doesn't work with H, you will be ready for your future, but there is a good chance that if you break the cycle of fighting, you can recover and have the kind of M you dream of.

Remember again, there is no way you can change him, unless he wants to change. Lets concentrate your efforts on you, because you can control that.

What do you think?

SS

Boy, stay away for a day or two and end up on page 3, ark gets her "up carrots" back and things just change way too FAST. (Hey ark^^, I want some of those "carrots" for my horses).

Well, I am not the MB queen, by any means. I fell off of the Plan A wagon after a few short days. But I did hop right back on- after I nursed my ankle, that one that the wheel ran over-.

Got into "discussion" and "drama" with H on Fri nite when he spent the night. This is why I am separated right now, I am soo resentful, I cannot stay "nice-nice". **Everybody, pay attention here, this is why there are timelines on MB (which I didn't follow) and although they are "guides", they should be closely followed. We learn from our mistakes, right? I hope so.

H didn't want to sleep on sofa, cause he would be tempted to come in our room and attack me. I told him that it might be ok if he did this. Well he came over, laid on the sofa and watched the history channel, and later fell asleep with S7. I got up and was finishing cleaning and laundry, he got up 30 minutes later and told me to "go to bed!". I responded calmly that I didin;t like it when he said that (esp. bossily) and even tho he was worried about my sleep, that I was a grownup and would be ok. He laid on the sofa, I waited for him to say soemthing else for about 15 min. Came to the pc for 10 min., and "poof" he was asleep. I was hurt and angry. We later got into it.

My bad, but the next day was better (and I did end up meeting his SF need that nite too). And he took S7 that nite, and came back and spent day on Sun. I could not get rid of him, so we had a nice day working in the yard and then watching movies with S. (S7 loves to garden with me, and H is impressed with S's growing knowledge of perennials and full sun flowers and such.)

So, I messed up and then tried to fix it. H wants to come home so badly. I think that he is spending way too much time over here. What do you all think? I told him he could come home when he chose one of the other 2 options that I originally gave him.

More later, don't want to bore everyone and need to get to my animal-caretaking routine.
jls

More later, don't want to bore everyone ...

Boy, you sound like me now!

You don't bore me. I'm sure it's the same for everyone else here. Especially when you talk about chasing around your horses. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Anyway, consider this another bump for the MB pros.

svb

Hey svb,
How are things going?

Since I am not boring you. Today I fed, hayed outside, and put out 7 horses. Only to clean 7 stalls and put them back in so I can do it again 2moro. I took "goatee" with me out to barn and worked on cleaning up woods with mower and weedwacker. Did 3 loads of laundry (but didn't get sheets back on kids beds - no matter, D is in Hawaii and S sleeping withe me since he was scared of Liminy Snickett -). Changed one cat litter box, will do other 2moro. Swept and mopped kitchen, vacuumed a little, and worked on purple martin house a little. And when I sum up my day, that doesn't count taking care of S7 (school and back), shopping, feeding all other animals....

Not boring, but I wish I had time to ride. Funny, just remembered H saying that he really became unhappy during my happiest year. I was taking riding lessons for the 1st time in my life, and had horsefriends... He was jealous of me being happy, he told me that once.

Well. I started really working on my Plan B letter, and didn't save it and closed it fast when S7 walked up to computer and was looking! I am worried how finances will go during that time. H told me today that he was thinking about taking 2nd job, so he could move out of parents house. I told him that it made me sad. He is not actively looking for another job. He does not understand my concerns about whoever he was talking to, as he maintains that he was not talking to anyone. I simply stated that since she called him by his work name (on the tape), she must be employeed there and I worry about it daily, and it hurts me. He blew me off.

Well, I am gonna go to bed and then get up early and work on that letter.

jls