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Hmm, capital's point (or one of them) sounds similar to what gnome was saying a bit back. gnome said that disrespectful cracks about someone's attractiveness level/appeal/appearance were below the belt.
I agree that's definitely not up to the standard of discourse that we'd like to have around here. If gnome wanted to go on a crusade to clear the board of such cracks, I'd support it. My point is that any such crusade is going to have to deal with Slap himself, since he's the worst offender I can recall seeing on that topic. I'd be all for a statement along the lines of "hey folks, I know Slap does this himself, but it'd be nice if we considered cracks about people's appearance are below the belt, all of us *including* Slap didn't use them anymore."
I think the same thing of what captial is saying. If you want to encourage a higher standard of discourse than cracks that are deliberately meant as insults intended to hurt, I'm definitely for that, but in that case Slap is one of the very people you need to be talking to about cleaning up their behavior.
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Don't have much time ... but I wanted to focus on this sentence: I think it's probably healthier for the children to have parents consistantly co-parenting rather than parents who are consistantly arguing. Call me crazy... I won't call you crazy, but I will call you wrong. I've read a lot about divorce, and most of it is written about divorce with children involved (most counselors write us childless couples off, pretty much, because there is nothing more than the marriage to 'cement' us together). One of the constants is that the majority of children of divorced parents would rather there parents were together than anything - even if they argued. From a personal aspect, while I certainly didn't LIKE listening to my parents argue, I was never afraid they would leave each other or us... Divorce wasn't as prevalent then as it is now, so it wasn't the first thing we thought about when our parents argued. And my parents argued a lot and loudly. They are, btw, still together, retired, RV'ing all over the continent of North America. So, unless there is abuse, divorce has never proven to be better for the children.
terri
Courage
Whatever course you decide upon,
there is always someone to tell you
that you are wrong.
There are always difficulties arising
which tempt you to believe that your
critics are right.
To map out a course of action
and follow it to an end
requires courage.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Separation has been better for my children, Terri, and there was no abuse. Are they "happier"? No. Are they learning to become the kind of people I want them to grow to be? Yes. And that has only happened since the separation. Hey, Zuzu, I'm glad you think B deserves better than me! I was one who more than occassionally hoped for the phone call. I wished and prayed God would take my decision out of my hands. B. does deserve better than that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> However, my point remains. I also got immediately and deeply depressed when after years of trying, I gave up and decided I'd just have to live with the way my marriage was. Once I changed my mind and decided I would NOT live like that my depression evaporated. (Of course, being me, I can get depression back at any time. Suffered off and on since age 8. But that doesn't mean I have to help it out!!! Enough thread jack. I can see this is not a discussion I'll really be able to affect. Adeiu.
Divorced.
2 Girls
Remarried 10/11/08
Widowed 11/5/08
Remarrying 12/17/15
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Hey, Zuzu, I'm glad you think B deserves better than me! Green Gables, that's not what I said. I think a spouse deserves better than being wished an early demise, not better treatment, or fortune or blessings over the spouse that wishes these things. I know someone who prayed for someone else's death. Even though she hated the man for doing terrible things to her, she was upset by his death, because she thought she had caused it by her prayers. Surely she was justified in her hatred, but when it came down to it, she didn't really want the burden of deciding who lived or died. If someone is thinking these things, this person needs some sort of counseling ASAP. I think once that is out of the way, a person can make the decision with a clear mind, as in "this is my boundary and I will not live like this any longer." It's certainly Slap's choice, as it was yours, and he and you will have to live with the consequences, good or bad, or good and bad. I just hope to be encouraging him to hold on longer, to try a different tact that I'm not aware that he's tried. If he's tried it, then *I* can allow myself to rest on the subject until I know that I've said all I can say. If he's not, it's up to him to decide, and then deal with whatever comes. I hope that clears up the reasons for why I post. If you still disagree, so be it. I hope you do not feel like I stripped your thoughts of merit, because I do get, and respect, your point. I truly hope that things ultimately turn out well for you and your children, and for Slap and his family. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ~ZP
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GG, I'm curious at your sensitivity on this situation. Do you really feel that your situation and Slap's are comparible? Let's take it to a judge: GG: Your Honor, I want a divorce.
Judge: It says here, your reason is irreconciliable differences. So let's have it out: just what are those differences that can't be reconciled?
GG: Bill has an unmentionable legal situation he refuses to resolve, which could have a negative impact on our family assets, and our children's wellbeing. He has also been irresponsible with our family financial situation. For example, he's mixed our finances with his book business, taken up all livable space with his book business, spent funds that needed to go for family necessities on more books, but won't get them sold so he can provide for the family. There have been instances where we have tried marriage counseling, where I am told repeatedly that I'm deficient, and at fault for all problems in our marriage. This can't be reconciled. Bill and I are different people. I still love him, but I can't put our family through more of this imbalance of marital responsibility. We have different value systems. Another example: Bill can live with this legal thing hanging open ended over his head. I can't. I finally asked that he clear up the book business and the legal thing by a certain time - to demonstrate that he cared enough about our family to do this. He didn't. The legal thing remains untouched. The books are finally out of the house because I forced that by separating from Bill.
Judge: GG, You said you tried marriage counseling - for how long?
GG: We have done all sorts of things - like follow the advice of author Willard G Harley - and I worked hard to find out Bill's emotional needs and meet them; but Bill was only interested in telling me where I fell short - not in finding out what my needs are and meeting them.
Judge: And marriage counseling directly?
GG: Yes, we did that too. Our most recent venture as a last ditch effort to save the marriage was filled with how I wasn't meeting his needs and expectations. He wasn't interested in how to make marriage a better prospect for me.
Judge: Bill, what do you have to say for yourself?
Bill: I don't want a divorce, your Honor. Marriage was really good for me, before GG kicked me out. I could do what I wanted, see my kids all the time, and I don't want to lose that.
Judge: GG has expressed some serious reservations about a legal siatuation that you brought into this marriage. Why haven't you resolved that?
Bill: Because I could end up in jail and lose all my books and assets.
Judge: do you have any intention of protecting your wife and children from the legal implications of that problem?
Bill: Oh it's no big deal as long as GG and I keep quiet about it, it should never really matter.
Judge: You know it's serious enough that you could go to jail, but you say it shouldn't really matter? How do you think this isn't having an impact on your marriage?
Bill: Oh it is, because GG keeps making it an issue. If she'd just forget about it, there wouldn't be a problem.
Judge: About these books - GG has shown me pictures of the house - filled in every room with books you supposedly are going to sell. What do you have to say for yourself.
Bill: Oh those aren't all my books. I have another storage facility full of them too.
Judge: How long did those fill your house like this - it's pretty bad on the cluttered side of things.
Bill: Oh that wasn't very long. And I did eventually clear them out.
Judge: I see dates on these photos - this went on for years. Why are you so oblivious to your family's situation?
Bill: Why are you asking me these questions. Why aren't you asking GG why she was so impatient with me and why she wants to divorce me because of a few stupid books?
Judge: How much do you feel these books are worth?
Bill: Well, I spent over $30,000 on them.
Judge: Family money, or business money?
Bill: Oh I was going to pay that back.
Judge: When?
Bill: When I get them sold.
Judge: what efforts did you make to really make this into a business that would provide for your family?
Bill: Why do I need to do that? GG brings in enough to take care of that... And GG, I know I'm not even scratching the surface on the emotional harm he has done to you - it's been a long time since you posted about those things, but I'm remembering your struggle with getting any kind of reliable independence - via the car. Let's put Slap on the divorce court stand. Slap: Your Honor, I want a divorce. Judge: It says here, irreconciliable differences. Let's have it out - what irreconciliable differences. Slap: My wife is fat, won't provide financial support, and can't pass a driver's test so I don't have to play taxi driver for my family. Judge: You want a divorce because your wife is fat. What kind of a reason is that? Slap: Your Honor - my primary emotional need in a marriage is to have an attractive spouse, and that includes being fit. Pam has not been consistent in her efforts to lose weight and show me that she cared enough about me to do that one little thing. Sexual fulfillment is my 2nd highest primary emotional need, and fat women just don't turn me on. Judge: Was your wife overweight when you married her? Slap: No, your Honor. Judge: When did she gain the weight? Slap: After she got pregnant with our first child. Judge: So she bears you children, a side effect for many women is to gain weight, and you want to disrupt your family home because of this? Slap: Yes, your honor. I can't bear to have a fat wife anymore. And this author, Williard Harley, says that I shouldn't have to endure an unattractive spouse if that is my primary emotional need? Judge: Where does the author say this? Slap: In chapter 8 of His Needs Her Needs. Judge: Dr Harley, what do you have to say for yourself. This man is taking license to divorce a woman who bore him children and takes care of his home, because he says you told him it was ok. Dr. Harley: I have never given such license. My son and daughter have opened up counseling services to couples to help them learn how to meet each others' emotional needs. But I have never heard from this man and neither have they. My book gives no such license to divorce - it's about how to make a marriage stronger. Judge: Pam, what do you have to say about this? Pam: Your Honor, It's true. I was slim when Slap and I met. We married. I started gaining weight during my first pregnancy. We lived in a beautiful part of Canada. Then Slap lost his job, we had to move to this cold, God-forsaken part of Canada because it's cheaper to live here and Slap could find a job. He moved his mother in with us so that she could help with the rent. Judge: And how did things go after that? Pam: My mother-in-law is a very critical person. I can't do anything right and I have had to go to great lengths to endure her hateful behavior toward me. Judge: What have you done to resolve this weight issue? Pam: I've tried several diets and working out at the gym. The challenge is that I am responsible for the children, taking care of the home, working part time, and I am just wiped out from the stress of all of this that I just feel like grabbing a meal at McDonalds and skipping the gym. Judge: Slap - what have you done to ease some of Pam's burden so that she could consistently meet your need for at least effort to lose weight? Slap: I moved my mother in to help her. Pam: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Slap: I asked her to make more money so that we weren't so stressed financially. Pam: <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Yes, your honor. He asked me to take on MORE stress, and added that to his list of emotional needs that HAD to be met for him to be happy in the marriage. Judge: Slap - do you have any empathy for what your wife is going through? Slap: I don't care any more. I don't love her. I don't want to be married to her any more. Can you just imagine a judge's response to this? I mean, really. I'm struggling with the comparison of the two situations. GG - go back and read your situation again. Do you really judge yourself so harshly that you gave up for selfish reasons? That there wasn't willful cruelty going on in your marriage? I am so sorry you feel that way. I can't imagine that Slap would feel anything but shame and silliness in front of a judge for acting the way he's been acting toward his wife.
Last edited by KaylaAndy; 04/30/05 08:47 AM.
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KA, I wasn't drawing a direct comparison by any means. Just trying to point out that sometimes... Well, sometimes some of us are too weak to keep on working at it.
And yes, I do think I'm getting divorced for selfish reasons. Do I think I'm making the wrong decison? No. Do I feel guilty about it? Yes. I do NOT believe in divorce. I do NOT want to be divorced. (Of course, I'd rather be dead than live with B. again, so there's a conflict!)As of January 12, B. was willing to take care of X. In fact he had taken steps towards taht. But it was just too late. Sometimes something is lost forever.
And it is absolutely true, when you divorce, a part of you dies. It dies when any relationship ends, but marriage is a key one, right up there with parents and siblings and children.
But I'm threadjacking. Sorry.
Divorced.
2 Girls
Remarried 10/11/08
Widowed 11/5/08
Remarrying 12/17/15
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(((((GG))))))
I'm sorry for your loss.
Cafe Plan B link http://forum.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2182650&page=1 The ? that made recovery possible: "Which lovebuster do I do the most that hurts the worst"? The statement that signaled my personal recovery and the turning point in our marriage recovery: "I don't need to be married that badly!" If you're interested in saving your relationship, you'll work on it when it's convenient. If you're committed, you'll accept no excuses.
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Slappy wrote:
I think I like to preserve a little piece of individuality and privacy. I mentioned the wallet and purse thing. I don't want to know her passwords or go through her purse either.
We share pretty much everything, I just like to have a couple things private. Hi Slappy, I haven't read this entire thread so forgive me if you've aleady addressed this ... but, the quote bolded up above written by you raised a BIG [color:"red"]RED[/color] flag for me. The saying "one that hides nothing, has nothing to hide" comes to mind. Why is it necessary for you to have email privacy? What is in your email that you don't want Pam to see? Jo
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Capital Idea, A very good first post. ... If it is indeed a first and you aren't just using an psuedonym. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Capital Idea was not me posting under a psuedonym.
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Well, live by the sword, die by the sword. He's dished his own. I try not to use insults because that's my preference. But I can't say he hasn't "earned" his own. I disagree with that. I have lost it at a person or two over the years, but I don't agree with the suggestion that I have been insulting to other people. I don't think he's done enough, for long enough, steadily enough that *I* would be comfortable with MYself going into a separation with intent to divorce. How do you know what I have and haven't done?
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My point is that any such crusade is going to have to deal with Slap himself, since he's the worst offender I can recall seeing on that topic. I defy anyone to find a single post where I was disrespectful about anyone's appearance except for making light of my own.
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The saying "one that hides nothing, has nothing to hide" comes to mind.
Why is it necessary for you to have email privacy? What is in your email that you don't want Pam to see? Nothing. I just like some things to be just for me. There's nothing in my wallet that I wouldn't want her to see. To me, it's like how we allow each other privacy in the bathroom. Some couples don't so that, but for me it's my preference.
On this day I see clearly.
Everything has come to light.
A bitter place and a broken dream,
and we'll leave it all behind.
On this day its so real to me
Everything has come to life
Another chance to chase a dream
Another chance to feel
Chance to feel alive
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I disagree with that. I have lost it at a person or two over the years, but I don't agree with the suggestion that I have been insulting to other people. Having been insulted by your "women are always catty" stance that you have at times directed at me and other women in general, yeah, I think you've earned it. That doesn't mean I think it should be dished out to you, though. How do you know what I have and haven't done? Well, I think you have said that you have not done a Harley application 100%. You have admitted to picking and choosing what you will do, plus some of your posts show that. You are not 100% open with your wife, and I still see your LBs about her fly. But, if you think this assessment is wrong, then please tell me what you have done. Or, if you prefer, because my opinion matters only as much as you will allow it to, share all this with Star*fish, and that is fine with me. If you say you're covering it with her, then I will say nothing more about it. ~ZP
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Well, I think you have said that you have not done a Harley application 100%. You have admitted to picking and choosing what you will do, plus some of your posts show that. You are not 100% open with your wife, and I still see your LBs about her fly. Well, there was a time when I tried to do this as comprehensively as I possibly could. Now, no, I'm not even close. If you recall, I've tried over the years to work through problems that I had with applying parts of the MB program. Radical Honesty I asked about several times, because I couldn't figure out how to be racically honest without LB'ing. I've asked for help with conversation as well. Any failings of mine with doing everything well with the MB stuff was not for lack of trying. Of course, that being said, I'm not really trying anymore. I have almost always been the one to try to take inititive to try to work on things to make them better. I'm tired of trying. You can only have fruitless efforts for so long before your motivation goes in the toilet. Mine's been there for too long now.
On this day I see clearly.
Everything has come to light.
A bitter place and a broken dream,
and we'll leave it all behind.
On this day its so real to me
Everything has come to life
Another chance to chase a dream
Another chance to feel
Chance to feel alive
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Of course, that being said, I'm not really trying anymore. I have almost always been the one to try to take inititive to try to work on things to make them better. I'm tired of trying.
You can only have fruitless efforts for so long before your motivation goes in the toilet. Mine's been there for too long now. Would you believe me if I said I've been there too? I gave up. All my efforts seemed in vain. There are times I get so tired of things being the way they are and a fleeting spirt of motivation fills me, and then it fizzles out almost as quickly. But there are things I'm doing to change myself now. If at the end of these changes my husband is not with me, well, so be it. But I'm focusing on working on myself, still trying to meet needs...my needs, his needs, the kids' needs...whatever comes up that school doesn't prevent. And even sometimes then, I take time away from my school effort to take care of things at home. I let DH do his thing, for the most part. I do my thing, we try to get our time in, and we have a family fun night where we play games and watch Extreme Makeover Home Edition. But it's not Harley and it's not always romantically fulfilling, but I will call it LIFE. I'm not sure exactly how we got here. At least the LB's are dropping. I think that when I returned to school all the pressure to be a homemaker kind of evaporated. I had time that I could comfortably spend on myself, knowing that it was also going to benefit the family and so-on. There's little guilt associated with it. (I'm not really the homemaker type, but I love my kids endlessly, and with less time to spend, I put more effort into making it quality.) I think it took pressure off DH too. But this was a decision we both had to make. And it's still terribly difficult. It's a trade-off...less time, less housekeeping, for more time at school with little-to-no reward, less time to do home school, etc. It's also more costly, in travel time and gas, and clothes that I need to look decent, and so on. So, I quit trying to get everyone to conform to my way. I'm trying now to get myself to be what *I* want myself to be, and then, maybe the others will follow. But it's not easy for any of us, and I shudder to think of some of the things that could happen in the future. You know, the ills that well-off people have. I keep my eye to that. I also want to say that not a whole lot has changed re: money matters. There is still some overspending, the lack of being able to tell exactly what's in the account or how much we'll have left when bills are paid. Worry that we'll get evicted. But I at least know there's some money there that we won't be in trouble for long. I also know that after a few years of schooling, I will be able to make my own money. ~ZP
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I did this (moved out of the bedroom, to give her more space and reduce rejections), hoping it would make things better... it had the oppostie effect.
the marriage started to get really rotten, there was just no way to escape the stench and horrible [censored] feeling that the marriage had turned into.
christmas, which i am hopeless at, was my best ever (i thought), but still there was that hopelessness & resentment-filled feeling that could not be dealt with.
possible that the resentment from continued lack of improvement in having my needs met, caused the bad feelings which weighed heavily on us both.
now we are in the middle of the separation process, at a mexican standoff, the rotten feelings still permeate, the trust has been broken, etc.
my advice is: it won't work. don't do it. find another way.
either love her the way she is, or negotiate a divorce with her while you are still talking.
best of luck, either way.
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