I don't post much anymore but I do browse the forums almost daily. I have seen so many posters wonder if their "repentant" WS has either re-established an A with the OP or started another A with a different OP.

Has anyone ever used a post-nup that would include an agreed upon penalty for the documented and proven WS? If so did it work? If it failed did it stand up to the legal review that I am sure would ensue?

Would this be a detriment to recidivism or not? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

ive got papers from the attorney saying what he will give up---house, monies, retirement and social security, and child support and spousal support....did i forget anything. according to the attorney it is all legal. would be hard to fight....but in case he does....i also had him up his life insurance to 1/2 a million....lol

nikko,

So what I thought was a novel approach has been done before!!!

Smart move nikko!!!!

i told him if he ever put me through this again i would take it all.....and if he agreed and then fought me for it---then i would kill him and get the whole thing plus 1/2 a mil....LOL

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

It sounds like a good idea. I wish I had thought of it.

Nikko-you're a genius!

I'm rubbing my chin, thinking, could I?, should I? hmmmm.

Way to go.

Nikko, this sounds great -- but how, exactly, is "infidelity," "cheating", "affair" and/or "unfaithful" defined in the pre-nup? We already know that WSs have their own definitions of these things and are NEVER guilty of them. How would you ever enforce this?
Thanks,
Mulan

mulan---the definitions are right out of surviving an affair---for ea and pa.....the proof would be the same for proving any infidelity in court---pictures, records, receipts..etc...

Hi Cy, nikko - great minds thnk alike. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I recently suggested (outside of this forum) this very thing to a former MBer.

I think we should really air this out and hopefully get some legal views. Perhaps nikko can expand in the description and describe the process?

Along these lines, I've come to the opinion that pre-nups make a lot of sense, although they're poo poo'd by many as being a sign of "untrustworthiness" and entering the marriage with a cloud over it. More like recognizing how easily it might get cloudy, to me.

I think pre-nups are necessary to protect an honorable spouse from the non-spiritual adverse consequences of a marriage breakup - no matter the cause. By non-spiritual I mean the financial, legal, property rights, etc. stuff that our society has mixed in with the spiritual aspects of the marriage union. I think the same logic should be applied as for any other breach of contract.

JMHO

A friend of my families had a post-nup done which stated that if her H (a recovering) alcoholic ever drank again he agreed to vacate the home, the divorce proceedings would begin (again) and it would be uncontested by him.

I don't know the specs of property/money division but I do know she had a lawyer draw up the post-nup and had him sign it before she would let him come home after rehab.

He never did drink again (deceased now). She was the mayor of our town for years, and a very smart cookie she is.

I can't see how this would differ from infidelity.

Well, at first, I was thinking we don't really have enough assets to have a pre-nump, because I associate that with "If you mess up/screw around on me, I will make you pay through the nose."

But, after reading your description, WAT, seems more like an amical D process, kind-of done in reverse. Outlining "fair and equitable" while both parties are in a Giver-type mindset. A guideline to follow, when something in the M goes terribly wrong, and negative emotions are running way too high.

So, at first I was thinking no about the PN, because I don't think you can enforce your beliefs or your own safety on somebody else. You can try, but . . . you can only control you. BUT, after reading your post, WAT, and Weaver, I can see the possible value.

Spidey

As WAT pointed out, pre-nups are useful for asset protection.

However, the concept of a post-nup to attempt to enforce penalties for bad behavior does not appear to be a respectful use of the tool.

Signing the device tilts the balance of power and control in favor of the non-targeted spouse. The object of recovery should be restoration of a mutually respectful relationship. I can't see how a unilateral post-nup would be helpful.

However, it may be more palatable if it were couched as a bilateral agreement. Depending on where you live, this may be a moot point, but could certainly be useful in "no fault" states.

Low

Let's make sure we're all on the same page, terminology wise.

Cy and nikko were talking about a post-nup, i.e, a "contract" that specifies the division of property and outcome of a repeat infidelity.

I introduced the same logic arguing for a pre-nup, i.e., a pre-marriage "contract" specifying the division of preperty and outcome of any "marriage contract" breach that results in divorce - of course I'm thinking infidelity as the cause.

I'm not sooooo naive to believe all this would be easy to implement if one had to use either vehicle in the case of infidelity. But there seems to be a lot of justice or recourse lacking for the honorable spouse who gets financially screwed by a conscious decision of a cheater who goes all the way to divorce.

Take my case, for example. My WS left the family home over my objections to more easily conduct her affair with her best friend's husband. She initiated ALL the legal steps for the separation and the eventual divorce, over my objections and desires to reconcile. The divorce was finalized. I end up having to pay out big bucks for my legal counsel, split all liquid assets 50/50, split all retirement investments 50/50 (heavily weighted from my individual assets), and split all property 50/50, except for the home which I got 70% of (the fog has its advantages). AND - she gets a large portion of my retirement pension whenever I retire. Other than the home split, I pay out the yazoo for her cheating and decision not to even attempt to reconcile.

To do it all again, a pre-nup could specify that in the event of an infidelity by either party, the other party can specify the division of all jointly held liquid, and real property and future benefits.

Play the role, pay the toll.

WAT

Low,

I disagree with your statement. How can a mutually agreed upon legal documet with negative consequences for BOTH[/b] parties be either a non respectful tool or unilateral.

My premise was not a contract to protect the BS but also guard against the possibility of a revenge A by that same BS.

Good Dr. Cy man ca:

This question is really an eye opener <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />(at least to me).

Just NEVER thought Of doing something POST M or even Post A.

You've really got me thinking here.

Although I'll admit, I've not thought through EVERY possible side of doing this action......at least at first glance, I don't see much wrong with it.

I'd be Willing to sign exactly the SAME contract as my W.
I have NOTHING to fear from any type of infidelity stipulation. Zero!

And as far as enforcement.....let's see?

If I were to catch her the same way I caught her last time (with another man's semen in her underclothes) ......Then I'd take it to a lab.......have the DNA compared to mine........and when its NOT a match.......case closed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

In addition, the language of the document can always be "worded" to include what the parties consider an A.
And Boy has my definition Broadened since coming here.

As well as what constitutes "proof".

To me it sounds just like one more of a long list of "tools" that can be used to "help" keep someone faithful (kind of how locks "help" keep [color:"blue"]Honest [/color] people [color:"red"]Honest [/color] )......and probably MORE useful in helping a betrayed partner FEEL Safe enough to continue on and try.

(Instead of being afraid of being in this "no man's land" of impotence that most of us found ourselves in the first time around).

Gives a faithful partner at least some type of recourse.

For instance, I've lived in 5 different states since being M (& ALL have been "no fault")....so Not much consequence for infidelity in most of the country.

Besides her willingness or perhaps unwillingness.....would speak very loudly about where her head and heart really are.

Cause unfortunately I've learned the Hard Way........people can "say" ANYTHING! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Gonna have to THINK on this one.
Even if I never actually do it (most likely Not).........still nice to always know that I have more Options then I ever thought of myself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

At the very least I'll be interested to gage my W's reaction should I even bring the subject up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Dern tootin' this has to be equally applicable to both spouses. Goose and gander thing. More so for the pre- flavor.

Can anybody offer a good argument why this shouldn't be standard procedure in the post-affair sitch? Make the NC letter just the intent and message to the OP? Make the post-affair agreement the REAL no contact document?

WAT

Real no contact with teeth.....big teeth!

one of the sneaky things i did----after my attorney wrote up the paper...to actually find out how airtight it was i took it to his best foe.....another attorney. these two are known to go after each other---if he could find a way to tear it to shreds i knew i was in trouble....the outcome....it could be disputed---but it would be a waste of time...it was airtight....

and as far as this being a scale tipper of power---who said i wasnt willing to sign the same thing??? or didnt???

I haven't replied to many topics lately - but this I had to..

I agree it sounds great - BUT - wouldn't the straying spouse feel like a hostage....A caged Tiger...??? Feel that they HAD to refrain from A's so they didn't lose their life's savings...Wouldn't they find another way out of the M??? Or a way to make the sane spouse INSANE...and begging for a Divorce...

I guess in my situation - I feel my poor many times WH is only in our M because he fears financial loss..I think he'd love to be "doin" every woman that walks past him...

His staying M to me doesn't make me feel like a whole person or a worthy person. I feel like trash many days - knowing that he probably hates me but doesn't have the [email]ba@@@[/email] to leave me...so he just keeps cheating and refusing theraphy and I keep hoping he'll change...

I do not want someone to stay w/me for $$$$$- no post nup for me....

mine isnt staying for $$$ or the loss of them either. this was written up after we decided to reconcile and started working on stuff....what it actually did was show me he was staying for the right reasons.....you have to know my hubby to get that!! LOL

the point was he was willing to do ANYTHING AND BACK IT UP IN WRITING!! your hubby isnt doing that. it is a very different situation. i didnt whip out this paper and say--if you want back sign this! it actually started as a joke..i do have a weird sense of humor...see above comments on life insurance..lol.