Yes. I'm beginning to realize that. I wonder if it's because they don't think I have a point, or if they've learned (by watching) what happens to posters who post something contrary to this little groups opinion.

Hmmm. Name calling, selfish demands, beratement, insults, disrespect, defamation, slander...

...and when even that doesn't work, childish threadjacking games.

I'm just trying to have a conversation. You are the one(s) deliberately trying to kill free speech. I feel I've raised some valid points and I'm still waiting for someone to pick up an opposing point of view and argue it intelligently and in a civilized manner.

Now Melody, clearly you don't agree with my stance in support of the Harley principles, but surely you can come up with something better than 'dewt's a control freak'. I'm still waiting for it to be explained who exactly you think I'm trying to control.

And in regards to the actual topic of this thread, can you (or anyone) come up with a logical argument or not?

dewt

Weaver, thank you for weighing in.


I absolutely believe that diversity is an excellent asset. I'm not in any way shape or form promoting a universal posting style, not trying to impose opinions.

I believe in calling a spade a spade, or at the very least, not getting caught up in the bull.

However, I believe all this can be accomplished with respect for each other and respect for the MB principles.

I

Dewt what do you want ? I'm not sure

No one here is signing up to a charter that says " yes it fine to abuse people on the boards". No one yet has disagreed with you that its no OK to abuse or insult people, particularly new WS posters.

The site rules say its not allowed and the moderators assess what is and what is not acceptable considering the context.

You agree with Mel that sometimes firm, respectful words are required, it is the definition of what constitutes 'firm, respectful' words that you seem to be stuck on.

Well dewt your interpretation, my interpretation, mels interpretation will all be different day to day and sitch to sitch but through it ALL the moderators decide what is acceptable or not.

So what are we arguing about again ?


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

about how agressive, rude and mean some people here can be......when, at times, it just may not be necessary....

Yes. I'm beginning to realize that. I wonder if it's because they don't think I have a point, or if they've learned (by watching) what happens to posters who post something contrary to this little groups opinion.[/quote]

Could it be because they are perfectly happy with their own posting styles and don't feel in need of your special guidance? I know that seems crazy, but I don't think most folks sit around waiting to hear the error of their ways.

However, I think it is a very noble for you to use Harley's principles in your own life and that's all you can really do. You are a shining example, as are most others on this forum. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

And how do you intend to change this?

Dewt,

I'm so sorry to see the great disrespect that has been shown on this board in regards to your attempt to speak on this topic. The threadjacking alone is nightmarish! Hello Mods?!?!

Personally, I agree with many of your views. I don't think it's as much about coddling or "sweet-talkin" as it is about just plain old treating people respectfully. UNLIKE what has been shown on this thread. There are several here, Dewt, that apparently have nothing to offer to your conversation, yet for some reason feel determined NOT to allow the ones that wish to participate incitefully to do so. I'm not sure how many of the comments here have helped this thread, nor were even worth the effort of posting. Just taking up space with the apparent attempt to annoy and ridicule. That could quite likely be part of the reason that this board seems to have the effect that it does. Or, lack of effect. It's really a shame to waste such good space with worthless dribble.

Now, back to the discussion at hand. I didn't see that you were trying to control or dictate your way on this thread. What I took you to mean, was that COMMON DECENCY and RESPECT should not HAVE to be reminded. That these were the personal guidelines that you ascribed to. And that you were wanting to see what others offered as to the manner that they took when responding? Am I correct there?

I think that for WS's there should be a sticky posted at the beginning of each topic, guided them to the area that is offered on this board. Then, hopefully, only the people that are truly interested in HELPING would take the time to help them out. That the ones that are so bitter and still clinging to their own hurt don't have to be exposed to them. If they went there...then it would purely be to incite. I think that would be the more appropriate way to handle WS's. Several have been turned away by the theatrics or heart wrenching pain that BS's are in the midst of. It wouldn't throw WS's in the face of hurting, recent BS's, nor would it exact the same were the situations reversed.

I truly hope that some will make an honest effort to address your thread. And those that are not prepared nor willing to join in that conversation simply omit replying. Because, truthfully, if they don't want to involve themselves in this convo., why then do they remain on this thread? Makes one wonder.

I hope the Mods take a look at some of the behavoir that has "shined through" on this board. The attempts to threadjack, derail or otherwise just be a nuisance to this thread are in no means helpful nor constructive.

I'd like to talk to you further, Dewt. That is, if others will ALLOW the discussion to progress. I guess we'll see.

Nor

Hey Ark,

I just came across your post. I'm so sorry for not having replied to you sooner for you have given me exactly what I was looking for!!! Someone to challenge my stance on these positions! Thankyouthankyouthankyou...

I will clarify:
I'm saying that the Harley principles, taken as a psychologically sound way to approach interpersonal relationships, have merit. In other words, if we shouldn't disrespectfully judge our spouse, we should not do it to our children, or our neighbour.

I will definitely concede to you this point:

I've been deliberately painting with a wide brush, in an effort to avoid offending individuals. It hasn't worked so well. I'm not advocating the stamping out of posts that might make someone uncomfortable, or shine the light where they might not be so happy it is being shined. The Lord knows I've been in that spotlight here more than a few times.

And here Ark, you have another major point.

I can't back up my perception of the general increase with any facts, so I'll have to give you that one by default.
By 'disagree with gratuitous sniping' I'm gonna assume you feel it should be avoided... (correct me if I'm wrong)

And you are absolutely right about that little button. I guess that is the bottom line. I was hoping to raise awareness of this so that as a community, we could do that much less harm, and perhaps that much more good.

When I read this, I felt I had to clarify:

I'm not advocating mollycoddling, kidgloves, or even neccesarily a 'soft' approach. An approach can be tough as nails without being disrespectful. You can call someone on a line of bullpucky without calling them bullpucky. I'm from Quebec, Canada. Vive la Differance. Variety is the spice of life.

My issue is not with folk who risk offering what might be perceived as offensive. My issue is with folk, many of whom should know better, sniping gratuitously with no disregard for the TOS or Harley principles. And that boils back down to that little notify mod button... so I guess that pretty much settles that...

Anyway, thanks again for posting.

John

NorExp,

Actually, if you go back and read, Justuss, the mod, has already been through and cleaned up some. But I gotta say thanks. I haven't minded so much because to me it's been so blatantly obvious and outrageous, that it's been the perfect illustration of what I've been trying to discuss.

Your point:

Reminded me of earlier comments about these threads dragging on and on. This page is going on six pages now. How many of those pages are posts relevent to the thread topic?

Now, back to the discussion at hand... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


Yes, I feel that common decency and respect should not have to be reminded. And yes, they are personal guidelines I ascribe to, but more than that, they are part of a system that has been developed by the founder of this site. A system that is not only based on decency and respect, but also on a set of psychiatric principles that have proven effective.

I did want to see what others had to offer. I was kinda hoping for an intellectual debate, or at the very least an honest and forthright exchange of ideas, but I guess in the end I did get pretty much exactly what I asked for... with a demonstration no less!

I mostly post on a different board these days. There are some great posters here, don't get me wrong, and the MB system works in many cases when properly applied, but it's not the safe haven it used to be (there I go with my nostalgia again). My FWS posts with me over there because the environment is quite a bit 'safer'. I'm still here often enough though. There's quite a few people on MB I sincerely care about so I keep coming back.

There's more in your post I want to discuss, but it's getting really late and I've a huge day at work tommorrow... I'll come back as soon as I can. Thanks again for replying.

John

Dewt

Show me someone who has advocated treating posters with disrespect or cruelly.

You are arguing with a bunch of peopel who all agree with you already.

Noon would advocate disrespect or unkindness.

But others including the mods seem to realise that this is an EMOTIONAL BOARD. Its not the star wars fan board or cheesemasters or whatever.

People will snap. It doesn;t mean they advicate such posting or what.

And when people do snap the mods deal with it.

SO again what exactly would you consider to be your objective met by this thread ?

The only thing I can see is that you personallytake offense at MelodyLane's posting style.

Well sir, as one who has been at the recieving end I'll tell you theres nothing wrong with correction in love from experience. In such cases it is disrespectful NOT to get the advice across through blankets fog or fear inaction.

What conclusion to this thread would make you feel happy ? I really don;t understand.

NorExp,

I feel there are some hurtful and disrespectful statments made by you in this paragraph.

You could very easily have been talking about my post, where I stated my feelings on the topic. Were my feelings "worthless dribble" to you?

If you were talking about the cutting up that some do occasionally, what is the harm in that? Most of those who occasionally jump in with some humor spend an enormous amount of their time on this board helping others. Would you begrudge them their fun once in awhile?

I think this board is very effectual. Like I said in my earlier post it has had a huge effect on me in my life and relationships. Which is why I defend it.

Dewt,

I'd give you an intellectual debate if I were capable of it. I'm just not wired that way intellectually.

There have been several times when reading your posts to others, especially regarding forgiveness where you really hit on something I needed to hear. And I do agree with you about incorporating the MB principles into all relationships.

You keep saying that the other board is "safer" than here. I can't argue that because I don't understand it. If somebody does lay into a poster it seems there are always others who jump in and call them on it.

Because I was an OW, I am particularly sensitive to postings on this subject but it has never been mean enough here to chase me away.

And I also know who would support my marriage to XMM if it came about and who wouldn't. So I would not look to those who would oppose it or deem it unworthy for help, or for approval.

When people come here with a sincere desire to change, I think they get plenty of good help.

And Mel did give you a good argument about why she thought trying to get posters to post "nicer" was an attempt at control. At least she gave a good enough argument that I understood what she was saying.

Sorry Dewt, probably not very intellectually stimulating convo from me or what you were looking for, but it is the best I can do right now.

Have you all noticed there are no double or triple or quadruple posts anymore on this new forum?

Cool, hey?

Oops threadjack, sorry.

What is not "helpful" are attempts to dictate the behavior of others, NorExp. The mods have taken a look at it and noted that these kind of threads always up in a brawl for that very reason. It is just simple common sense that you can only control yourself, you can't control others.


Do you mean "allowed" to discuss it without disagreement? Probably not. No one is entitled to that. But only the mods can actually stop you from discussion, other posters cannot. Feel free to carry on your productive discussion of the error of the ways of others. From the looks of your other posts, this seems to be your only topic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Hey Weaver, thanks for popping in. Maybe you don't think your reply was intellectual, but at least you're showing signs of intelligence. And you are able to come into the thread, and call someone on something without levelling a series of insults and DJs. As far as I'm concerned, that's conversation.

I think what Norexp was referring to by 'dribble' was the pages of pointless threadjacking. This may be a dead horse to some, but obviously to some it is still something worth discussing. I don't think he was refering specifically to anything you said.


What is the harm in that? Well, it's been established that DJs are not only ineffectual, but according to Harley, it qualifies as abuse. I think there is harm in abuse. I think harm is one of those things that helps define abuse. I think harm is inherent and unavoidable when you 'cut someone up', ridicule and berate them. And to have fun at the expense of someone's feelings? Do I even have to point out how cruel, inhumane and sick that is?

I have to agree with you that when people come here with a good attitude, the get plenty of good help. I have no issues with that. My issues revolve around people coming here for help/support and instead of getting help, they get DJed. Is it overwhelmingly rampant? Not saying that. I am saying that it's a big enough issue that there are some people that want to discuss it.


I must have missed the argument. It's coming across more as an accusation. I still don't buy it no matter what you call it. I don't see how raising an issue for discussion is an attempt at control. I specifically have not named names or used any examples. I've tried very hard to keep my discussion impersonal. My main point has been and still is that we should, as a community, respect the MB principle and at the very least, TOS.

Honestly, I was hoping to influence. To me, that is vastly different from trying to control.

If you understand Melody's point here, I'm gonna beg you to explain it to me, because I've been asking her for pages to explain it and she has yet to offer me a reasonable, civilized explanation or argument. In fact, the whole thing is rather difficult for me to swallow because of the apparent point of her posting here has been to aggressively disrupt the topic. I view that as controlling behaviour. I have yet to give Melody or anyone any specific advice or critique on their posting styles. I on the other hand, have been told outright that my choice of topic is unacceptable and my approach is unacceptable. What Melody has been so aggressively accusing me of is exactly what she has been doing, and she's doing so with a vehemence and aggression that is astounding.

Bob, thanks for weighing in.

You said:
Well, Bob, I've been trying to avoid naming names for the express reason that I did not want this to turn into an emotionally reactive flame war. However, this is a fair question. Rather than sift through endless pages of threads and posts in an attempt to find quotes, I will invite you to reread this thread and the one before. There are plenty of examples.

You won't find a stated position advocating treating posters with disrespect and cruelty, but you will find plenty of examples where the intent is made plain by the content of the post. Perhaps some of those posters could explain/justify their behaviour and in that we could find out why they advocate this kind of hateful behaviour.


My objective is to discuss it. In a civilized and rational manner. My objective was/is to raise awareness and hopefully INFLUENCE people (especially those posters who are leaders on this board) to think twice before they post. It is an emotional board. Absolutely, and that is all the more reason to accept the moral responsibilities that come with our membership. So that even though it's an emotional board, chock full of WS and BS alike, we can all continue to get along and try to build marriages.

I do not take offense at Melody's posting style. I've certainly taken offense at being harassed, insulted, disrespected, slandered and belittled but that's got nothing to do with her 'style'. It's got to do with her specific behaviour, and I would be just as offended if it was you acting this way, or weaver or anyone.


Bob, I've followed your story from the beginning. I know what you are saying here and I completely agree. Honest, forthright posting was of GREAT help to me when I was here as a WS. I fully advocate correction/advice/critique when it comes from a place of love and experience. That's not what I'm arguing against.

I'm arguing against purposely hurtful remarks. Critical statements stemming from a place of hate and frustration and anger very rarely help. I'm arguing that they are not only ineffective, but abusive and that we, as a community, should try to avoid posting that way.

As for what kind of conclusion to this thread would I like to see? Well for one, I'd like to see it end with the word 'again' so that you can win some money. Apart from that, I hadn't a conclusion in mind. My efforts thus far have been simply to have the conversation. In a situation where people can debate and discuss in a rational, civilized manner, the conclusions usually work themselves out.

dewt

Critical statements stemming from a place of hate and frustration and anger very rarely help. I'm arguing that they are not only ineffective, but abusive and that we, as a community, should try to avoid posting that way.

Dewt this is my point. I know of no-one who would advocate the deliberate verbal abuse of anyone , new WS , BS or whatever.

But because of the nature of the folks on THIS site, emotions will occasionally get the better of us and post from the gut, not filtered through the mind.

How do you make policy against that in away that improves upon out uniformly excellent and subtle moderators wading in when theres a challenge?

Oddly, the posts I take offense at the the sickeningly nice PC ones that give bad advice or no advice in fact.

Bob, I see your point. And you're right, no-one has come forth and argued that stance with any points. HOWEVER, there has been ample examples, through this thread alone, of people advocating that stance with their actions.

I've taken enough 2x4s upside the head (and rightfully so) for not 'walking my talk' over the past year. The basic point of these critical (and appreciated) posts was that words were not enough. I had to SHOW with my ACTIONS that I was sincere in my words.

I say the same thing applies here. Every one agrees that the Harley principles are sound but some are showing through their ACTIONS that in reality, they believe that abuse and aggressive attempts at domination are more effective ways to get what they want. Through their actions, they are advocating a position diametrically opposed to the Harley principles.

Again, I'm not advocating a change in policy. I'm advocating that we honor the one we already have.

Yes, I don't like reading 'bad advice' either. At the same time, I'm aware that the label 'bad advice' is my own interpretation. I'm not a counsellor, psychologist or coach so it's not really my place to judge the content of what is posted. Usually, if I disagree strongly enough, I'll post a countering opinion. To me, that's the wonderful thing about communication. We can share ideas and grow from our rich and varied community.

However, DJs, insults, attacks, aggressive anger... these are things that IMO hurt communication and hinder healing. And that's why I tried to post a countering opinion. That it turned into a slugfest was both surprising and discouraging. That it still is a slugfest is simply astounding.

Call me naive, but I'm still stunned by the fact that although I haven't yet thrown a single punch the attacks and ridicule still keep coming. I'm wondering if these people will chill out enough to actually talk about this or storm off in a huff when they realize I'm not affected intimidated by their aggression.

This is almost turning into a debate on democracy and free speech as far as I'm concerned, which is so far from what I'd hoped to accomplish with this thread.

dewt

Dewt,

I am in a situation right now that I'd like to tell you about. I am a FWW. OM lives in the same area. Where I live is centrally located between his house, his father's house, and his brother's house. It doesn't look like either of us is planning to move anytime in the near future. That's fine. I can't force that upon him, nor would I even try. He has every right to travel these roads, as do I.
Recently I have taken up walking....for my physical and emotional health, and my dog loves it!
I had been walking for about a month, and from time to time, have seen him in passing. It doesn't bother me. he means nothing to me, and he is no longer my concern.
Last week, OM pulls up behind me in his truck, starts babbling about needing to return something to me that his wife requested he return. ANd then he starts apologizing incessantly to me for what he did, and tried terribly hard to get me to ackowledge that. I did not respond. It is not my job to respond. My job is to maintain no contact, to never speak to him. So, I did not. But what became apparent to me is that he believes I am out there walking to purposely aggravate him and his wife. He must also believe that I hate him, or that I am not over him, because he also felt the need to tell me "it's over". I don't understand AT ALL where that came from. The only explanation I can see is that he has totally misinterpreted my intent regarding walking. Do you have any idea how ANGRY that makes me?
So now what do I do? What that feels like is his attempt to control what I do. Would he be more comfortable if I stayed holed up in my house? Sorry, I cannot allow him to influence anything I do. So, because he THINKS I am out there with an ulterior motive, do you think I should allow what he thinks about that to dictate what I do? He is absolutely WRONG about my intentions. Should I even bother trying to convince him or his wife otherwise?
I have tried to "guess" what HIS intentions are for stopping and saying something, but the truth is, I do not know....not for sure. I could react to him based on my assumptions, but that is what HE did....and we would get nowhere. So, my husband and I chose to ignore the whole thing. Nothing would be resolved anyway. It's very hard to convince somebody of something they just do not want to believe. But that's not my problem.
I used to be the kind of person who would cry and get upset when I felt that another poster was being "mean". But I have learned that I was using that to play the victim. I cannot control what people say or how they say it. And I have learned that I cannot tell with 100% accuracy, or even 50% accuracy, what their intentions were. But I decided that if their intention was to be cruel, then that is their problem, not mine. I do not have to respond. Period. And I do not have to use it as an excuse to "run away" or "hide" like I used to.
No, it is certainly not pleasant to be on the receiving end of cruelty, but I have not yet learned the skill it takes to read intentions on a forum such as this enough to decide it is actually cruelty. I have made that mistake several times here and been WRONG, more often than I have been right.
If you want to be an influence here, then all you need to do is be the type of poster you wish others were. Just BE that person.

NOW

NOW

You are

quite simply

amazing !!!!

Pep <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

NOW,

Pretty powerful words. They reached me, for sure. What a brilliant perspective.

What is amazing is that with that perspective, I am now free to love people as they are.