I'll try to keep this brief. You can see from my tagline what the sitch is at my house. I have 4 kids, 2 biologically and 2 of my Ex's from 2 of her previous relationships. I've been with them since they were a baby and toddler so I don't see them as any different from my own and Love them dearly.

The EX doesn't pay child support for the 2 oldest because they aren't mine, now I know I could file and get something but for various reasons, unimportant this discussion, I don't. I just wanted to get the background info out there.

The 2 oldest want nothing to do with her, my oldest (16S) was the one who caught her so you can understand his feelings. My 14 yo S doesn't want anything to do with her either. I support their decision, while forcing them to go occasionally hoping the EX will attempt to talk to them, apologize or something. They get angry with me for making them go (4 times since January) but the flip side is I get uncomfortable with my 2 younger ones going by themselves and their older brothers are very protective of them.

I forced them to go yesterday for Mother's Day, but it ended up being a bad idea like the last time. The older boys were home within 2 hours because they get into it with MOM (married other man) and he storms off and the EX defends him and brings them home. That has happened the last 3 times they have gone.One time they were only gone for a 45 minutes/1 hour which is barely enough time to drive their and back.

I have tried to discuss this with the EX a few times but the conversation always ends up with it being my fault. It always ends up that it is ME driving away her older boys and has nothing to do with what she has done or how she is treating them. The EX will go on about how my 2 younger children don't have a problem with anything but that just isn't true. I have to listen to the little ones for a week or so before they go how they don't want to see her, how they can't stand her. I try to console and listen and point out I am sure the EX loves them. I'm not vindictive, I want them to have a relationship, you never know when the EX might have an epiphany and decide to be a mother again so I try to maintain contact in case that time comes.

I have never put stipulations on the hows and whens of visitation. I have only asked of her ONE THING about visiting and that was until she established a relationship with them again to please not include MOM into the mix, he can't take care of his own kids for Christ's Sake and I certainly don't need another bad influence in their lives.

Of course, the EX see's that as me being vindictive, which it isn't I couldn't give a rat's a$$ what she does when the kids aren't around. The EX discounts everything I tell her about what the kids are feeling. They WANT their mommy, all kids do, they just don't want this version of mommy.

I guess I am just getting tired of picking up the pieces afterwards and tired of being the one doing all the work raising our children.

I just want to add a couple things....

We do have set visitation but I bend over backwards to accomodate, the reason I do is because I don't want the relationship severed in case EX comes to her senses about the kids. I don't force her to take them when she cancels ( alot) and I don't ask her to take them when it isn't her time (that NEVER worked)

Why the kids are so angry with her kinda makes me feel like everything I taught them over the years was a success. I know in my EX's former skin, she would be proud of them for recognizing and standing by their decisions of right and wrong, now of course they shouldn't use that judgement on her, according to EX. In one way I am very proud of them, all my preaching about right and wrong, just and unjust, lying, stealing, cheating and honor sunk in and they actually heard me. OTOH it is sad because now they had to learn that lesson in real life with their mother.

Anyway, any advice?

Should I make the older boys go anymore? Should I make the EX stick to the schedule no matter what? Should I even bother trying to talk to EX about it anymore? I tried to get us into family counseling but EX wouldn't go (not reconciliation type family counseling but just giving the kids a forum to speak their minds and have EX and I help them work through it, I hoped it would open her eyes to the childrens needs so she could work on their relationship with her before their is nothing left)

It's just so frustrating and I am getting to the point of moving farther away so the kids won't be subjected to her lack of care anymore. I don't want to move but I know if I lived another 30-45 minutes away she probably wouldn't even bother coming at all. I know that isn't the ideal way of dealing with it but I am just tired of being the good guy, tired of seeing my kids like this, tired of having to listen to them talk about it and sit their and bite my friggin' tongue off so as not to say anything mean or nasty (and lord knows I have plenty to say on that subject)


I'm just tired of trying to maintain their relationship all by myself

Sorry so long...but this was the brief version



<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

RebornMan

RM,

I am certainly no expert on the subject, my kids are only 3 and 5; and although we split time nearly 50-50... XWW has physical custody. In my opinion (and that is all it is) it is not your job, or place really, to maintain that relationship for your kids. That is their mothers job. I think it is good for you to encourage it, but don't be doing the heavy lifting.

Just my two cents... hang in there, sounds like your a pretty great dad.

Thanks WMWB,

One thing I forgot to add.....

My reasoning (other than the extremely obvious ones) for wanting my WWXW to leave MOM out of the mix is this....

I think the kids could stomach being with HER, I think in time they would even be OK with it but the main complaint is the fact that they despise MOM and despise mommy for being with him. They despise the fact that she sticks up for him at their expense. They feel (and I know) that MOM is more important to her than they are by her actions and words. I think if she spent 3-5 months of seeing them once or twice a week sans MOM things would probably turn around. My 2 little ones were crying in the car a month ago when she dropped off their older brothers, they wanted to stay home with them. I feel like a turd but I told my little ones to go have fun with WWXW for awhile and come home later.

Of course then I get all kinds of resentment from EX for it. Here I am trying to calm them down and let them know it is OK to be with her for a bit and I get accused of "influencing" them? Yeah? Duh, it's my JOB to influence them <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I'm their Dad! So one of the traits WWXW admired about me is now a bad thing? Thats the reason the kids are in my custody, WWXW even told the Judge I am a better parent to the kids and that was why she wasn't fighting for custody (among many other reasons including that none of them wanted to live with her)....

WWXW used to be so proud to talk and brag about the kids and I because she knew I'm top'o'the class when it comes to fathering(sorry, sometimes you have to pat yourself on the back...lol). It's one of the things I believe led to her cheating to begin with, she never felt like she was a good mother and always comparing how I am with the kids and how she is. No matter what I would say, I could never convince her she was a good mommy, I could never convince her this was a partnership, that she gave them things I couldn't or didn't know how and I gave them things that she couldn't or didn't know how.

Jelousy of my relationship with the kids? (something she has admitted too on many occasions)....
Anger for them chooosing to live with me?
The virtual end of her relationship with her older boys?
Her continued lack of confidence as a Mother?

Whatever it is I know I shouldn't feel bad or guilty for the way she acts with the kids but I do. I've resigned myself to the fact they will never have a mother in the real and true sense but I don't want it to be a angry and hateful existance either. My older boys talk all the time about how they don't trust girls (which I always counter with positives), how they have lost faith in people (to which I tell them you can put your trust in some people but you can only put your faith in God) and on and on it goes.....

I guess I am just trying to figure out if...

A. I am doing the right thing and
B. Should I continue to gently push the relationship or let things alone and just try to be the best Dad and influence on their lives possible?

It's painful, difficult and wearing me down trying to be everything to my kids all the time. I feel a vent coming on so I'll end this now....lol

RebornMan

Your intuition serves you well in my opinion. My mother cheated on my dad when I was 16. She moved in with the guy shortly after. I hated... HATED my mother for a long while. So did my brothers, I was the oldest... my brothers were 12 and 10 at the time. We would see mom on holidays and birthdays and the like... it was forced and painful at first. The one thing that my mom had going for her that my XWW (and yours) doesn't is this. First, although she cheated and betrayed my dad, she was never cold hearted and cruel. She was never bitter or mean and she never put us in the middle of it. Secondly, the loser OM was NEVER around, she never mentioned him to us... EVER. Partially because I think she knew we'd have killed him... partially because she was very aware of how we felt and tried to gaurd us against those feelings of animosity. Basically the subject of him never came up. It was like and unspoken rule that it was never talked about.

This is were I think your thinking is on track. If MOM was out of the picture and not talked about with regards to your kids... I think they would be able to have some sort of respectful relationship with your XWW. Sounds like that is a BIG "if" though.

As far as dealing with reactions from your X... ignore it as best you can. You have a pretty good handle on what is right and what is wrong. Her reactions are not grounded in reality, logic, or reason... they are a warped emotional response triggered primarily from guilt (if I had to wager a guess). Ignore them.

As far as your older kids thinkning women can't be trusted... I think that is normal too. I have actually formed a theorem that goes something like this (and this will no doubt get me into some trouble here...):

1)ALL women are [censored]'n crazy and ALL men are @ssholes.

2)Some woman are more nuts than others, the trick is finding one that is less nuts than the rest.

Let me expalin. I don't think that women are literally crazy in the sense that they are fashioning hats out of tin foil or are thinkning that people are trying to get them... not crazy in a literal, diagnosable sense. But, I do think it is certainly easier to think of all woman as being crazy in the sense that they think sooo differantly from the way us men do that there really is no other explanation. If you say black, they will undoubtably say white. Thats just the way it is. The reasoning, I figure, is thus. Women, by nature, are much much more emotional creatures. When forming opinions and making decisions, emotion plays a huge role. Emotions are often dictated by hormones. Hormonal levels rise and fall and are generally NEVER consistant... as a result we can think of most woman as emotional rollercoasters. Logic and reason play only a very small role in any decision and are often considered cold and unfeeling.

Men, by contrast are exactly the opposite. Logic and reason are the cornerstones of our decision making process. Emotion usually doesn't play much of a role. As such, the women around us wonder "How can he think that way? That is so mean. What an @sshole!"

This will surely be taken as me being sexist or pigish or something like that. I assure you that is not my intention... just pointing out a line of thought.

My point is, I think your kids are quite normal in their thoughts and reactions... as are you. You are right, you shouldn't feel too bad for the state of the relationships between your kids and their mother... but I understand why you would.

Oh, and to answer your questions:

A) Yes, I think so.
B) Yes, I think so. That is to say do both.

((Reborn))

Two quick things, first that top statement is walking a tight line. In real life, they are going to have to work with people they don't like, disagree with, etc and need the ability to do that.

As to you second statement, I think that's a grand idea. I think some family counseling with you and the children would be wonderful in helping them. I did it with my girls for about a year after the divorce and it truly helped them channel those negative feelings in a positive direction.

Thanks WMWB for confirming what I was thinking.....makes me feel a whole bunch better.

I was hoping I wasn't seeing things differently because of the way I feel about her. It made sense but it's always good to hear someone confirm it from real life experience.

BTW, I agreee with your assessment....and I understand exaclty what you were trying to get acroos about men and woman....still funny though.


Thanks again,
RebornMan

Hey LostHusband,

I'm not gloating nor trying to claim some sort of moral superiority...

What I meant by being happy is (and my spouse was at one time) that we weren't raising wishy-washy kids with a spinning moral compass.

When they go off and taste more of the real world they will find there own way of negotiating through the morass of life and those that inhabit it for good or ill. It is hard in a forum environment to get across everything I am doing but trust me, the older ones know how to deal with people for the most part.

The anger they have is justified and they really do have a choice in this one.

I've had them all in for IC a few times, I've had a hard time lately trying to get a time when we can all go (sans WWXW anyway)....4 kids and a job makes it difficult but I am clearing out our schedules the last week of May and first 2 weeks of June to go and do it. Sports, school (for them and me) work and on and on always seem to take over the priorities.

Thanks for your response, I appreciate it.

RebornMan

Reborn, might I suggest something with the older two? Tell them that not all women are like their mom. Their mom is unusual. My father was deeply jealous of my mother's love and care for us kids. He was also a compulsive philanderer. He also has a personality disorder. Diagnosed, signed and delivered. But, even my dad didn't have OW, former secretary around for at least a year after he and Mom split.

A really hard thing is learning to love a parent who is not and never will be a good parent. It took me a long time. Years.

The good news is one healthy, sane, good parent can stablize the children's lives and make the world of difference. Even with a mess of a father, none of us kids ended up on drugs or dead or in jail.

I know it's a lot of work and responsibility. I know you shouldn't have to bear the burden all by yourself. I'm sorry. (((RM)))

RebornMan,

IMO you are worrying too much about your kids' relationship with their Mom. I know that's easy to say, I tried to be encouraging of my kids relationship with their Mom also. At least at first. You want what's best for your kids and dammit they should have a good Mom too.

The problem is that the good part is being left out. I don't see how you trying to force this on your kids is going to help anything. If this is the same OM that your WXW broke your family up to be with (I'm assuming it is), I'm afraid your kids will NEVER accept the R between the two of them. How could a child ever be okay with someone that they look at as the one that broke up their family? Even if that's not a fair description of the OM that's the way they are going to see it.

If that's what they are feeling and you are pushing them to see their Mom it could cause resentment towards you. "How could Dad want me to spend time with someone who would do this to me? Doesn't he care enough to want to keep me away from someone who has destroyed my life?" Do you see how they could be processing this?

Your stbx selfishness is putting you in an extremely tough situation and I feel for you. As long as you look at things from your kids perspective (sounds like you are) and stick up for their feelings you will be doing all you can.

I also think that the counseling, at least between you and the kids is a good idea. I started counseling with my oldest son a few months ago and it has been a good thing. He was having trouble processing his own feelings and then telling me about them and it has really helped. You're doing a great job, hang in there!

starman

Hi GG,

Thanks for piping in, you have a good head on your shoulders.

Your point about taking years of getting past the issues to love a parent is what I am trying to avoid. I know what it is like from personal experience to hold anger and animosity in my heart for a parent. I am 41 years old and just getting all that out of my system for my Father....

I just don't want my kids living with it as well.

Thanks for your concern, it is much appreciated

RebornMan

Hey SM,

I don't know if it too much worrying per se'...I'm just a fixer by nature.

See a problem, plan a solution, carry it out, problem solved.

I know that things don't always work that way (especially in theses situations) but it doesn't stop me from trying apply my "usual" way of fixing things.

One other thing I failed to mention (maybe important, maybe not) is that since the 2 older boys are not mine by birth, they were not included in the D decree. I have had to file guardianship for them and the first hearing is May 18th for the oldest. WWXW has already signed the agreement for him to stay here and for me to take over as his full-time guardian. The second oldest's hearing isn't even scheduled yet. The dilemna in this is the fact that she could get pissed, walk in and say all bets are off (not in her best interest but that has never stopped her from doing something stupid before) and oldest son would be forced to leave this school district and my home until I could get a custody hearing for him (which could take till Christmas).

All that takes a whole bunch of money I do not have so the guardianship is the fastest and easiest way of accomplishing the goal.

So there it is. It keeps me walking on eggshells because she would screw the boys over to get back at me in a second, even though she doesn't want them.

It is a tightrope walk that I am not comfortable with. Now once I have guardianship I am going to apply for adoption for a few reasons....besides the obvious ones. I want them to be able to collect SS if I should die while they are underage, and I want the kids status (all four) to be equal in the eyes of the law.

Anyway Starman, the MOM is the one she broke our family up with but part of getting the older boys to go is twofold, one so WWXW will shut up and just let the guardianship go through and two, I trust my boys and really appreciate their protection of their younger brother and sister when they go. Once the guardianship hearings are over I really won't care if they go again.

RebornMan

Ah, RBM, I know this sitch, I have lived & breathed this sitch; it nauseated and sickened me until my entire view of marriage and relationships was skewed and twisted. I was 10.

Both of my folks married the ppl they had been having affairs on the side with. I had found out about my father's when I was 8, and what a blow, as I hero-worshipped my dad (still-do).

This was the same man who had taught me about integrity having no need of rules, that I should always behave in a manner of honor in every situation I encountered, that I should carry myself with pride and constance and truth. Fooling around on my mom. Well, she had been doing the same.

Well, that's just background. The meat of this sitch is that my father tried to reconnect with us (I was the oldest D of 3). He never excused his behavior to me and he spent unimaginable time trying to make reparations. Without MOW. He wanted to know how we felt, what he could do, and actively tried to institute those changes, if he could. Yes, he eventually married the OW. But she grew to be a big part of my life, in a good way. And I believe it was all in the handling.

Now let's look at my mother, & her relationship with MOM. We children rarely spent time with my mother, without him in our presence. And you know, the pathetic thing was, when he wasn't there, my mother would moon and pine like her lover was 1000 miles away. She didn't want to be with us. She would claim to, for the good sake of Motherhood, but who wants to honestly admit they would rather be in their lover's arms than with their children? I think the lady honestly would rather have given us up (at that time) as reminders of a sad and pathetic past in a failed marriage that she would rather forget, to embrace her halcyon days with this OM. (Even after she & OM had been married for 10 years, she still behaved in this manner, like a lovesick calf. Blech.)

Being sensitive children, we felt that and began to resent it more and more. But at that age, and being brought up in the deep south when you did not ever question your elders, you submitted to the shuffling back and forth without question. We knew we weren't wanted, but what do you say? We were 10 & under. We had no voice.

RBM, your kids do have a voice, and they are using it. I think you are handling this whole situation in exactly the right manner. Your kids will either come around in their feelings for their mom or not, but you cannot influence their feelings too much in either direction; that is left up entirely to your WWEXW. I remember my poor father trying to explain my mother's treatment of us; it was laughable, and awkward, and not to be explained. All you can do is BE THERE, as you are, and I cannot commend you enough for the job you are doing for them. Their home with you is steeped in love and support; they know where they can turn if they need to. I know there are other concerns (custody issues) we need to be aware of but as long as you are doing the best you can, your kids will turn out okay.

I did <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

~ StillLovingHim

Hi RBM,

You have received good advice thus far but I will just go a touch out of the norm here and say that even though your WW is the children's Mother,that doesn't automatically mean that your children HAVE to be involved with her if they are having a rough time.We have all probably heard of how parents give up their children for various reasons only to be raised by other more loving and attentive adults so in my opinion,if your WW is behaving in a manner that is unsuitable for children to be around especially with the homewrecking OM in the picture,she is not excluded from your protection anymore than if they were being sexually abused by her or vice versa.What matters is the protection,safety and love they are being given.MOM has absolutely NO business being around your children.EVER.

You are trying to encourage your children's relationship with WW and children DO need a Mom and Dad but if that one particular parent is acting inappropriately then it is your duty to protect them.In time,when they are older,they will decide what kind of relationship they want with their Mom but like the other's mentioned,it's not your responsibility.I didn't talk to my own Dad for 2 years after the way he treated my Mom and their subsequent bitter divorce.I just couldn't stand to be in contact with him and now we are just distant Father/daughter.

It's the same for my 2 girls.I bought my girls their own cell phone so they could be in touch with their Father at any time but that is it.He gets little info from me about anything now.He chose not only to live where the homewrecker lives,which is 7.5 hours away in another country but he had also told me that he is ok with being a part time dad.He also makes career choices that have consitently taken him further away from his family and these are his choices and hence consequences.I will not try to bridge a gap that he keeps widening.

I too am tired of being the sole parent that does everything.I don't regret it one bit I just mean that this is not what I had wanted either.I also wanted to have an intact, loving family with two loving parents guiding our children every step of the way.Now I do it mostly alone with a WH that only sees his children EOW.So I keep pushing myself along knowing that this is the most important thing I could ever be doing right now in my life,as tiring as it can be.

I also may have turned out "OK" but boy,do I wish that things were different in my childhood.I have survived is all.There is still pain there from that too.Scars.

O

i agree with october here. a relationship is not something that can be forged by mere exposure; much less by negative exposure. admirable as your intentions are, RM, im afraid that what your children may be experiencing is painful, repeated rejection from their mother. This is how they are likely to remember her. And all that built up resentment may cause them to reject her if she ever decides to reconcile with her kids. If she doesnt want to see the kids, making her see them may only strengthen her resolve. If this woman wasn't their mother, but only the babysitter, you'd pull them out of there so fast it would make our heads spin. "Mother" is just a label here, and carries no sacred quality whatsoever until she wants to treat it as such. One loving caring parent is all the children really need....and imho, NO mother (or father) is better than a BAD one. But that's your call ultimately;you know your xw best.
My two older kids (from 1st marriage) saw their dad twice since the D (10yrs ago). He just didnt care. For years my dd would lament and cry about why daddy doesnt come to see her or call her or even send a birthday card. It was heartbreaking and i was tired of covering for him and making up stories about how much daddy has to work and fly out for business trips. Finally i just sat her down about 6 years ago (she's 13 now) and told her flat out that daddy just doesnt care to see her or her brother. But i made good and sure to explain that daddy just cannot love, and it hasnt anything to do with the loveable, wonderful girl she is. She mourned over the loss for several days. But then it was like a huge burden was lifted and she just accepted it....Daddy's just a distant, cold fruitcake. no hard feelings. no more waiting around for "daddy" to come back left her free to move on.
she always called her stepdad by his first name, and bio. dad was "daddy". But since then, stepdad became her REAL "daddy" and bio dad is some man out there named David. In her heart, she cares about David, but she is separate enough from him that it doesnt hurt her at all anymore. If David ever comes back around, i believe she would sincerely accept him with open arms. Because it will have happened in its own perfect time. That's not something I could ever create from my own efforts.

Boy, did this post hit home for me. I'm not anywhere near divorce but the kid thing is heartbreaking. My kids feel much that same way about their dad. They don't want to be around him at all. I don't even try to force them to see him. I don't ask him to be responsible for them at all.

You should be congratulated for raising kids that realize that what their mom is doing is bad. Although your best intention is to have them spend time with their mom, it clearly isn't working. They are old enough to have a voice. If the voice says, I'm not going. Don't force it. If XW hasn't gotten the clue that MOM shouldn't be around the kids, she may never.

Remember the Plan A, you can only change yourself. You can't change XW. She's have her epiphany when she has her epiphany. Hopefully, it won't be on her deathbed.

"Let me expalin. I don't think that women are literally crazy in the sense that they are fashioning hats out of tin foil or are thinkning that people are trying to get them... not crazy in a literal, diagnosable sense. But, I do think it is certainly easier to think of all woman as being crazy in the sense that they think sooo differantly from the way us men do that there really is no other explanation. If you say black, they will undoubtably say white. Thats just the way it is. The reasoning, I figure, is thus. Women, by nature, are much much more emotional creatures. When forming opinions and making decisions, emotion plays a huge role. Emotions are often dictated by hormones. Hormonal levels rise and fall and are generally NEVER consistant... as a result we can think of most woman as emotional rollercoasters. Logic and reason play only a very small role in any decision and are often considered cold and unfeeling.

Men, by contrast are exactly the opposite. Logic and reason are the cornerstones of our decision making process. Emotion usually doesn't play much of a role. As such, the women around us wonder "How can he think that way? That is so mean. What an @sshole!"

Wow! Hold on a minute, ole hoss!! I could not disagree with you more on this! I (female) am FAR MORE LOGICAL than my H. He is incredibly MORE emotional than me! This difference in thinking/feeling styles gets us in more trouble than you'd ever believe. But to make a sexist judgement like the above is simply, well it's simply sexist!!!

Blanket statement thinking like this is troublesome to me. It casts women as overly emotional illogical incapable of making sound judgments females, and is totally untrue.

Let me say that I admire you for all you have done for the kids!! You are clearly a special man.

Next, I'd like to encourage you to keep a relationship between the mother and her children. I realize that this is not easy, I've been in that situation myself. Do it though for the benefit of the kids.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, time out. LOL I think *I* badly miscommunicated here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Let me clarify: RBM is handling this fine FOR NOW. Perhaps RBM shouldn't try to put negative thoughts in his children's heads (even if they are patently true) until all custody issues have been resolutely discharged & settled to his and his children's liking. No matter that he is the better parent, the courts never smile upon one parent purposely maligning another, however noble the reasons. I guess all I was saying in my post was that he should be there for them now, and listen to their voice, as they are using it. Once the immediate danger of custody issues, guardianship, whatever, is over, explanations and actions can be made as he sees fit. If they don't want to go, then they should never be MADE to go. Period.

I think most single parents never want their children to lose total contact with the other parent, no matter how beastly that peson may be. And the EX acts as if they want to see their kids (sometimes) but when it comes down to it, it is all for show, for themselves or whatever. Pathetic.

~ StillLovingHim

Hey thanks everybody, you've all given me much to ponder over the next week or two.

The more I've thought about it since I posted the original message the more I've become convinced that this has turned into a boundery issue.

I'll give an example of that, see what you all think.

Tonight she was supposed to get the kids at 5, I was in the backyard chopping wood, clearing brush and such. So about 4:20 she shows up, I don't see her because I am in the back. About 4:55 I holler in the back window for the little ones to get ready to go, XW will be here soon. My daughter comes around back and says "Mom's already been here and gone, we were on the front porch talking", I say "What do you mean she's been here and gone?" Then she tells me the story of her showing up and explaining she isn't taking them tonight.....and was here for about a half-hour...on MY front porch.

Now I am really, really P.O'ed, I mean Mt. St. Helens eruption P.O'ed....

First she isn't welcome to come here and "hang out", she knows it and I've told her to not even get out of her car. I have told her in the past that she was welcome to "hang out" at my place as soon as I can "hang out" with her and the MOM at her house.

Second, she didn't bother saying anything to me...again...this is what gets me so aggravated, I cannot make ANY plans...ever...and using the kids as messengers. These are things I have clearly stated were not acceptable in the past.

She still thinks she can do anything she pleases....anyway I call her after I find out and geee, guess what? No answer, Hmmmm could it be caller ID? So I dial a bit later hiding caller ID and still no answer.....

The whole thing is just plain disrespectful, I don't care that we lived here together for 12 years, it isn't her home anymore, she isn't welcome here. This whole attitude extends to the children and

See, I think it is a boundary issue in some ways but I really don't know how to stop it. Words don't work with her.

I'll be back to see what you all think after I sterilize my front porch swing.....

RebornMan

Wow, I can't imagine -- well, I can somewhat, my stbx was very passive aggressive during the marriage. At least now, he is being a good dad.

I don't know how to stop it either? How do you plan with someone so unreliable? Hopefully others will have some insight.