CSue,
I'm going to do this from my POV. Remember, I am NOT an expert, so you are getting my opinion. At least, it may give you some things to think about.
SS, so much to say.....but I'm trying to practice "self-control"! One of the gifts I received from all I learned during the process of recovery, is how to cope without harming others. Through journaling, (2 l's or 1 l? in journaling), practicing journalling...can't decide which looks right!
Through WRITING in a journal - I can dump garbage heaps of emotional baggage, and not harm another soul! In addition, I walk 3 miles everyday, and on certain days I can really move with great energy. My coping skills are greatly improved. God has blessed me in this way!!! Trying to practice
If you read Pep's thread on "if your spouse says they will try" you would have an idea of my next question. Are you succeeding? Does your H think you are succeeding? Do your boys think so?
These are not inflammatory questions, I want to know where you are. Angry outbursts were one of my problems. My W didn't want to be around me when I was like that. She wanted peace.
What I wanted, was to be understood - and considered in her decisions. If I felt I was ignored, of that my feelings were not considered, I was angry.
As you already know, no one wants to listen to an AO, so she would tune me out. I could tell I was being ignored, I would get even more angry.
The other thing I learned, was that you don't just hold it in. You find ways to discuss it that are respectful. If you just hold it in, you are delaying the reaction, but the bad feelings are still there, growing. That's why I asked you if you found a way to talk to him about it.
Unless he is crazy, he cares about your feelings. He may have bad habits, and he may get a thrill from women noticing him, but he wants to give the habit up, and he wants you to know you are his first and only priority. You help him cope when you discuss your feelings to him, and you give him strength to improve.
The simple example is teaching your child to walk. You hold out your hands, and you call to them. When they take those few steps, you tell them over and over what a good job they did.
We can call this admiration, and I saw your comment about it not being a desirable need, but think how long it would take that same child to learn if you sat and read the paper while they looked up to you for help, and comfort. All of have the need to know if our actions are pleasing to our spouse. (and others) T&L has (with God's aid) mostly recovered from being married to the clam, but it hurt her badly, and the damage was deep. It will be years before she understands how it is intertwined into her life, and affected her relationships with those around her. Some of that understanding may only come in the next life.
So, anyway, your H can function with out it, but the learning, and habit changes will come so much more quickly if you give that admiration to him - and if you continue to communicate your feelings when you are hurt. He needs both, but the people in education tell us that positive reinforcement works better than "the floggings will continue until morale improves."
Do you feel there is balance there - between praise when he does well, and sadness when he does not?
What I found out a few days ago, when I could bring myself to ask peacefully was whether or not he noticed Miss America, before she appeared before us with her breathy "Hi".
And his answer was "Yes". That answer brought on a whole NEW need to exercise my coping skills. Talk about triggers!! This is a good one. You see I know exactly what happened now.
She was responding to him. He started it when he noticed her. What is so irritating to me is that this is old bad habit stuff that he was supposed to stop, and had stopped. In perspective, let's call it "slippage", back into old habits. Now, I am not saying it is OK for him to do this. But, you need to know what your boundaries are, AND WHAT YOU WILL DO WHEN THEY ARE BROKEN. Many set the boundaries, but don't have a clue what to do when the line is crossed. I hope Steve worked with you on this part of it.
Much like you, I had good reason for getting angry. It's just that AO's don't work, so we need to figure out what WILL work and do that instead.
I find that my W really does love me, and cares about my feelings (nearly always.) When we can communicate our feelings, when I meet her needs, so her taker can recede (so she doesn't feel like SHE is getting taken) , and when I don't drain the Love Bank with LB's then she feels like helping me out with my needs, and even my wants.
His habits were such that they extended by several months our coaching with SH as SH taught my husband what bad ideas they were. Mostly due to immature junior schoolish locker room junk. SH basically told my H to GROW UP! Can I add the above to this other post below? They weren't close together when you posted them.
My husband developed this habit that is maddening to other drivers. It's very uncomfortable to be in the car with him driving. What he does is that as he is approaching a traffic light that is yellow or red, he puts his car into neutral and coasts forward on existing momentum. Which can be crawlingly slow................................ If he were the only driver on the road, this wouldn't even be a topic for discussion. But he is not. What kind of person ignores others to do their own thing like this when it has such a big affect on the other drivers? Why would a husband continue to do this when it caused these kinds of feelings (see below) for his wife?
So I always take reading material and sing songs to myself to deal with the stress. What does he get out of coasting to the light, that is worth giving his wife this kind of stress to deal with? Why would a man do that?
In my mind, this is a serious indicator of how he sees your feelings. That, or he is just really dense. Either way, it begs for a discussion.
So, my first point is that communication is really important, and yes, if you think SH would approve, perhaps you can talk about Love Busters now.
Early in our marriage there were things about my driving bothered my W. I didn't get it when she would yell, or when she would be sarcastic. I did get it when one day she said "It hurts me that you would continue to drive like that when you know it makes me uncomfortable." I was dense, but that was plain enough for even me to get. If he is the person I hope he is, and if his needs are being met well so that his taker isn't in charge, he will respond by helping you with these things.
If for some reason his taker is in charge, wait for a better time.
It was my anger at suspecting this is what happened that set me on my 1 day rampage! What he does is, oh this is hard to describe because the words will sound like I'm exaggerating....but I'm not - it's almost like out of a movie how my husband "checks-out" women he finds attractive.
I've been with him plenty of times when he's done this. And it feels REALLY disrespectful of me! The object of his intensity NEVER fails to notice him, noticing her. I would like to spend more time on THIS part, but I am running out of time. Haven't even really gotten to YOUR FEELINGS.
It was good to get the background, because I didn't know what his habits were, so I might have lectured you on AO's. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
As I said, I can see why you would get angry, but AO's don't work. I would guess Steve helped you learn the things that do work, and I won't spend a whole lot of time discussing that part of it.
I am sure you were thinking something along the lines of "He knows better than this, he knows. How can he be doing this again after all we have been through?" These kinds of things are not fun at all, and that is a very big understatement.
So Miss America's response is what I've seen in the past. Added to the situation is that "How could I be so clueless, this was going on, you ask?"
Big surprise to me too.....here's my insight to that. I was relaxed enough not to notice....because a couple of things. I am not so hyper-vigilent like I was for the 1st year after d-day. 2ndly...following church services, I am usually in a peaceful meditative state that is probably introspective - I'm simply living in my own head reflecting about the service, basically I'm checked out of reality for the time being. If I'm really lucky I can stay this way all day - it's a great feeling. The short version is that you are trusting him again. I see that as very, very good.
So it was in that state of mind I felt so rudely jolted out, when she purred by with her "Hi". I guess you could say, in a sense I was at an especially vulnerable state. He was not protecting you, and he should have been. If it had been a knife wielding assailant, bent on doing you physical harm, he would have protected you with everything he had. He had the same charge to protect your FEELINGS, and he failed to even perceive the threat, then he welcomed the emotional harm TO YOU to feed his own ego. Does he realize this?
If you haven't yet, I suggest having this discussion with him using this or similar examples. He being a guy, (you can substitute the word "dense" for the phrase "he being a guy" to get the full flavor of the comment) he may not realize the harm he has done, or that he does. It's built into us to respond to women. Oh shoot, let me give more background.
There are two parts of us. The natural, and the spiritual. The natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the beginning. We are here to subdue the natural, and give ascendency to the spiritual. The natural notices women, and wants to respond as he responded. Wants to be noticed, wants to get admiration from all sources, even at the expense of his W.
He needs to tame this for himself, even more than for you. If he can't, or won't, he limits him self
severely. And also, how much closer would you feel if you KNEW he would always protect you. Is there anything you wouldn't do for him? He needs to know, and understand.
One of the most important things I learned from SH during coaching, was how NOT to blow my husband out of the saddle when mistakes are made. SH is very clear to hold people responsible for their behavior regardless of the circumstances. Bad behavior by one party, does not give the other party a free pass to act badly in response. Probably already covered this one. You know what to do, at least I think so.
And....I was a slow learner on this one. So, although slow - I learned well. To answer your question, we haven't discussed it, because it hasn't been safe for me to trust myself not to blow him out of the saddle... So, that was then. Have you spoken to him about it yet?
You need this for YOU. From where I sit, this is more for you now. I can't talk to him, or help him, but I can talk to you, and help you. You need to talk to him for your own peace of mind, and you need to do it because your M won't be what it should be, or could be if it isn't worked out.
But I have learned patience - so I will know when the time is right, and we'll have a civilized discussion about it. What I plan to do is suggest we pull out his recovery plan that he wrote under SH's guidance and review it. Believe me...this type issue is in the recovery plan...and I'll take it from there. If you wait too long, the details will be fuzzy in his mind. I mean, it's your call, but I would say sooner than later.
From another post:
SS,
Interesting in your case that the LB's were the source of the main problem. Did you and your wife do the LB questionnaire, and review them with each other? We did the EN one, the LB one, and the RC one. All of them helped.
See, we knew the object was marital improvement. We didn't feel like it was a personal attack. We looked at it like "if we do this, we can have a better relationship, and be more in love." Both of us wanted that.
My husband had a boatload of bad habits when it came to dealing with other women. His recovery plan covered them all. It's interesting, because I became aware of his bad habits while we were dating, and they continued though out our marriage. It's just that prior to d-day, because I trusted him so blindly/completely I didn't let them bother me. You were used to it, and nothing bad had ever happened, so you just lived with it.
It's really lucky for us men that you gals marry us anyway. If you looked at it from a logical standpoint, we would probably never be able to talk you into it. LOL. Or in other words, we need help, so glad you are willing to help us.
Whew that changed after d-day. I have ZERO tolerance for any of that stuff now. And he had to agree to stop immediately, once and for all, forever - before I would agree to continue our relationship. To give the man credit, he met ALL my expectations regarding what he needed to do. He met them all UNTIL NOW?
Are you worried now, or just trying to figure out how to get past this one? Think on this one.
It wasn't easy because they were lifelong habits, well since middle school I would say. But he agreed after talking with SH that they were bad ideas.
SH also said we should review the recovery plan every so often as a reminder. It's probably been at least 6-9 months since we've done that. Wake up call for me to pull it out every 6 months regardless. Talk to him about protecting you. I think he needs to see it like that. He failed big time. He let the assailant get to you. What kind of a man lets his wife be attacked like that? He needs to hear it from you - about your feelings.
On meeting needs:
You have to learn how to meet them the way HE wants them to be met. You'll be amazed to learn how different that might be compared to what you think.
And AJ needs to learn the same about you. It sort of follows what I've heard people say about "Love" Languages.
If your mate's love language is "French" for instance...and you're speaking "Spanish" - well then it's not working very effectively is it? I have read that book, and you are exactly right. I think you get this part really well.
It also makes sense that something you think is perfectly acceptable, is a LB to your spouse. LB's are the same as needs. We should think about how different we are, and get our spouse to be honest about the things that we do that drive them nuts. IF you really love someone, you won't drive them nuts on purpose.
So as you all can see, this incident has scraped up all kinds of garbage....and being the opportunist I am...I plan to turn it into a positive. And learn what God's lesson for me is, in all of this. Because that's why it's happened...there's a lesson for me here. And one for my husband if he chooses to see it that way. And he should, if I can refrain from blowing him out of the saddle.
I had no intention of going into all this detail - sorry about that, I must have needed to! I am glad you went into detail. It helped me understand much.
Don't wait too long. Both of you need to discuss this. But for different reasons.
Marital improvement is ongoing. It's a process, not an event.
Rejoice in how far you have come, rejoice that you can yet make things even better. Try not to think about how much work it is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
SS
