Just keep firing away at me on here if it makes you feel better. It's what the BS is here for.

Sheesh, you two! STOP. WinBin is trying to say she is not enthusiastic about your roller coaster trip, B.

Win Bin, you need to be more direct. If you want to point out that roller coaster vacations without you take time and energy away from the family, just as flirting with strangers online does, then say it.

I still don't see it that way Green. I don't think that I should have to give my WH time to "withdrawl" over the OW and I don't think Bass should either.



That's what a lot of people had conveyed to me in another thread - the concept of letting someone treat you with disrespect.

You can disconnect the net all you want - but if she wants to go online she'll find a way I think; library, friends house, whatever. He shouldn't have to wait around while she decides when she'll be faithful.

Yes Win, he shouldn't have done those things you've mentioned but you each need to take responsibilities for your own actions. You can't blame his trip for your infidelities.

Trust me, my husband did MUCH MUCH worse. I never had ANY type of affair - NONE.

So IMHO the flirting etc. needs to stop immediately and the withdrawl crap is just that. I wonder what Dr. Phil would say about the sitch.
Hmmm ,......
(Sorry if my opinion offends some but that's how I feel.)

edited to add this in:
Quote : "Those who have been betrayed have a terrible ordeal to go through when they watch their spouse sad and depressed because said spouse can't have the OP"

OH BOO FREAKIN' HOO !

Sorry but I'm not going to feel sorry for my stinkin' husband if he's sad or depressed that he's not with the cow he left for.

Good Greif.

What next? Maybe a step-down plan where he gradually cuts down on the sex with her?

Ok, honey go ahead and only sleep with her 3 times this week and we'll try for 2 times next week. You know we have to take your withdrawl from her with grace and kindness.


What a load of steaming bullcrap.

I'm sorry but that just really stuck in my craw.

The bible views infidelity serious enough to list it as a reason divorce was allowed.

I don't see a 10 day coaster trip, too much gaming, or needing help with the house in there.....

Tess,

Have you read the MB principals about withdrawal? It exists whether you deal with it or not.

I don't think BS's should really respond to WS because they take all the anger from their WS and put it on everyone else w/out LISTENING to their situation.

HE can ignore my withdrawl all he wants but that's not going to help me recover or help our relationship. I KNOW that flirting is wrong. This is why I posted I did it so that I can get HELP to STOP it. You can deny withdrawl all you want, but it doesn't stop it from existing. It is what it is.

Also he was AWARE that I was talking/flirting and participated in the phone sex after when I would jump on him. It's not like I hid the whole relationship from him. What he didn't know is that I had fallen in love with one of the OM's I was talking to. I should have stopped the relationship at that point, but I didnt. I'm not saying that I"m not responsible for my A. Yes I am the One who had the A but in our situation, its a little different. H was involved too. And I never had SF with anyone only online and phone, not that it makes it ok.

So are you saying that it's ok for a spouse to ignore, neglect, be selfish, and controlling, abusing substances, and a person should just stay married for that? NO I shouldn't have had an A, I should have just left him.

I take responsibility for my continued chatting/flirting and I have committed to stopping to work on things.

-win

Yeah, to be honest I wasn't sure what she meant, but I took it as an attack. We were also emailing at the time and she stopped emailing me at the same time. So I got a little mad. But we worked it out when we got home and I understand what she meant.

I wish she wouldn't keep bringing up the trip, but I know she's going to be bitter about it...I abused her by taking too many trips and making them too long. The one this year, I booked the airfare a few weeks before D-Day. When everything came out, I offered to cancel the trip and told my friends I would likely be bowing out. She told me that she didn't want to see me lose the $200 I had paid (non-refundable tickets) and that I should go. I have promised to her that this will be the last trip I will take of this type. It was selfish of me to take such long trips without her. I don't think it's fair of her to beat me up over it when she said it was OK, but it's to be expected. She does point out that it's hypocritical of me to ask her to stop chatting, but I'm not stopping what I'm doing (until after this trip), and she does have a point there.

Trust me a divorce will be a heck of alot more expensive than $200.

Miker

Bassistist, I'm with Miker. I'd bow out of the trip for several reasons. 1. POJA -- your wife obviously isn't enthusiastic about it. 2. Your sanity -- if you're home, you won't worry so much she's chatting online. 3. These rollercoaster trips are obviously a big issue for your wife that go back a long way. 4. It's sort of an inbalance if you go have a blast while she's sitting home with the kids and no escape.

Win Bin, What's your plan for staying away from OM if your H leaves? You need a fail-proof plan. I do put disconnecting the internet up high on the list. I disagree with Tess on this. I think flirting online is less likely if you have to use a public computer. And when you have an 8 and 10 year old, getting to the library is tough. At the office, you run the rest of getting caught and fired.

Tess, I wanted to respond to you directly because your point of view is so natural.

You said you didn't think BSs should have to give WSs time to get over the OP. I agree. The betrayed spouse has every right to end the marriage.

If BSs want to be happily married to a Formerly Wayward Spouse, BSs do need to understand that there's withdrawal. Living through withdrawal is not the same as putting up with disrespect. If someone refuses to stop contact, then you probably have to go to Plan B or Plan D.

Also, Tess, I think you misread the section you quoted. Please go look at it again. I wrote that the Betrayed Spouse has a terrible burden to bear, not the WS. Maybe you quoted the wrong paragraph and were referring to my paragraph on how the WS does suffer too.

However, none of the thoughts I wrote applies to your situation, Tess. Your STBX is not repentant. He doesn't want to recover his marriage with you. At least not right now. He's not in withdrawal. He's not really suffering with way Formerly Wandering Spouses suffer once they go NC.

In my book, you should give your H. lots of understanding... Starting with "I understand you've made your choice. You're not my problem any more. I understand you're a selfish B. and the answer to any requests for help is 'NO!'" That's the kind of understanding you need to have for your STBX. LOL.

Bass-

Just posted a response on the other forum to what I'd read both here and there...

I agree with Greengables...personally, ya'll need to either remove the internet or install software to prevent Win from accessing the chats, rooms, etc...

I also let Win know in the other thread that I'm really more of the opinion that this isn't about withdrawl at this point. I don't think that REAL withdrawl has set in yet. At this point, she's still in the fog however, and still totally unwilling to accept her role in things. But that is NOT an excuse for this...IMO, fog doesn't excuse anything.

Take a look at my post, hopefully I wasn't too harsh, but I honestly feel like a dose of reality is needed here.

Well, I'm a little sore from the MB 2 X 4 this morning...but it's a good sore. ;-)

Greengables and Miker, I can't deny that you have a major point to make. So much so that I am considering cancelling my trip. It's going to suck to do this to 3 good friends 9 days before the trip, but I'm starting to feel terrible about leaving Win home alone when she is trying to do something very hard for her. I have no idea if me not going will make any difference to her, but I hope she would recognize the act as a rejection of the selfish behavior I have engaged in the last few years. It's going to cost me a lot of money, and I may lose one of the three friends over it...the other two will be understanding, but one friend in particular is going to be mad at me for a long time. I really wish that Win had taken me up on my offer to cancel the trip two months ago, it would have been a lot easier to let my friends down at that point, before everything was planned out. But I think that this is a decision I need to reach for myself. For whatever reasons (conflict-avoidance, passive aggression, or she just wanted 10 days alone to do whatever) she could not tell me that she didn't want me to go, even when I was offering.

I'm really torn about this...I want to make the gesture to show her that I have changed, but I'm going to be really pissed off if we break up anyways and I missed a fun trip. But there will be time for plenty more trips if we split up, I guess. Our MC said something profound last night..."we spend so much time wondering how our lives get so screwed up, but we have to realize we are where we are due to our own actions". I've made this little ethical trap for myself, and I have to say I've done a great job at making a puzzle with no easy solution. I guess I'm leaning towards backing out of the trip, but I'm scared to break the news to my friends. Not to mention I'm scared to add up how much it's going to cost me (I intend to pay for my share of all the hotel rooms even though I'm not going-it's not fair to stick my friends with an unanticipated $30-40 charge per night), and I REALLY needed the time off. Above all else, I'm scared to take this step and then have it make no difference anyways.

But it would be a definite violation of POJA if I go, and at a time when Win is trying to do something she has failed at so far, and which is so important for our marriage continuing.

Just tell Win that as much as your are dying to go on that trip with your friends, that you are not going to go as a sign that your days of engaging in the LB called independent behavior are passed. Let her know that while you would appreciate it greatly if she reciprocated from engaging in her own independent behavior of having cyber and phone sex with OM that it is her decision to do it or not and that you will no longer pressure her in any way, shape or form.

The time has come and gone where BOTH of you know what the marriage needs if it is to be saved/rebuilt and that if BOTH of you continue with the same destructive habits then BOTH of you are going to have to deal with the consequences from your selfish actions.

You may be interested in reading JavaPrincess's thread For the Newbies from a Recovered and Happy FBS. I beleive that you may benefit from her comments.

TMCM

B - Just popping in here. I have been talking to Win over on Card's thread.

I just want to ask what's more important to you...saving your M at all costs or the thought of losing your friends over a trip???? If they are truly your friends, they will still be your friends. You said you are scared to make this step, but from the outsiders here trying to look in, it seems to be such a necessary step in the right direction for your M to show Win you are willing to do your part. Both of you seem to state what I - I - I - I want, but what about the "us" in a marriage??? Both of you need to work on the "us" and work toward taking steps to get there.

2B - I just made the decision to cancel it. It's hard, because I AM selfish, but you are right.

Now I have to tell my friends <cringe>. But my marriage and my family mean more to me than my friends, and it's about time I showed it.

bassistist - Glad to hear you made your decision. I know it may be hard for you to tell your friends, but think of how this will feel for Win to know you are going to do your part and mean it.

Well, I hope that she understands I am doing it for both of us...for her to show her how much I want to change what was an unsatisfactory marriage for her, and for me to prove to myself that I am capable of change. This feels like the right thing to do.

Well,
I don't want him to cancel his trip now on his friends. I appreciate the gesture, but I also think we need some space apart, there's been so much drama latetly I feel like I'm gonna crack.

Win Bin,

So in short you won't accept his effort to show you, that he cares about you and what you think. Is that what you are saying? Please think carefully about this.

God Bless,

JL

Yes I accept it, but he's doing a lot of back peddling. He wasn't willing to change anything until he thought I was running away with someone else. I guess that's what hurts me. That my hurt and dissatisfaction wasn't enough to make him stop. Only losing me to another man was. All the times I told him we should spend more time together, all the birthdays and holidays he only thought of himself for. It hurts. It really hurts.

I don't know how long it will take me to forgive or move on. I know you all think I'm awful for what I did. I'm just stating the facts and my feelings. Not saying I'm not guilty. Not as guilty as most.

He's not going because he doesn't trust me and he wants to make sure I don't chat. I'm not going to chat EVER AGAIN!

^The above is mostly correct, although I would like to add that the reasons I'm not going are four-fold:

1. As stated above, I fear Win trying to give up her chatting addiction while alone in the house for ten days.

2. Win's excellent point in this thread that I have asked her to give up her fun, but I have not made the same sacrifice.

3. I re-read the chapter in LB about independent behavior, and this coaster trip is a textbook example of this LB, which has been a major problem for me in our marriage.

and

4. Win always talks about how selfish I am, and I wanted to show to her that I could give up something that means a lot to me, simply because my family means more.

She has responded by getting mad at me in email, then finally saying "do whatever you want" and giving up. I'm still going to cancel because it's the right thing to do, but why does everything have to be so hard? Me simply wishing that she might feel better somehow translates in her mind into me rushing her through withdrawal. Me saying that I might be horny, just in a general sense, is interpreted by her as a demand for sex. Me asking about her feelings is me smothering her. She interprets everything I say as either a demand or me being selfish. I guess I have it coming, because I did it to her. Maybe someday we will be "even" and we can try and make each other happy again.

Well, now it looks like I am going on the trip. Win has asked me to go, because she doesn't want me to let my friends down (she knows one of them well) and because she wants some space. She promises me she will behave. She says she's not meeting anyone and won't phone with anyone. She said she is going to chat, but she's going to keep it in the friendly rooms, not the sexual ones.

OK, some venting coming here...Win, I know you are going to read this. Sorry if any of this offends you; keep in mind this is my vent thread and I can say what I want here, including the things I don't say directly to you. This is one of those things.

OK, I can see most of you shaking your heads and saying "Fool!". Her being OK with me going basically says to the instincts that she wants to be free to do whatever she wants, and I am a fool to trust her after she betrayed me less than a week ago by planning phone sex and sort of planning a PA.

But you know what, I know this, and I can accept it. Both of us know that she could have an affair anytime she wants, she doesn't need me to be out of town for that. And it's clear to me that OM #1 is out of the picture, he just isn't interested in her anymore. I believe her when she says she doesn't have that connection with anyone else. And I believe her when she says she needs the space; to be honest, I do too.

I think she knows that she can fool me, but only for so long. I seem to find out what's going on eventually. And she knows the next instance of betrayal will lead us to Plan B, and her moving into her mom's house. I'm willing to give her time to get better, but I will not stand for repeated betrayals.

I know we're handling this the wrong way under MB principles, but we both need some space right now. If it turns out wrong then so be it...it's not like it's going good right now. If it's going to get better then we can survive 10 days apart.