Shattered,

Nice post! It is extremely insightful, especially since you haven't been around much. I've been following 2long from the beginning, and from my perspective - you've nailed it!

He really will be ok -

Wat, what you're saying is actually my worst fear for 2long.
His WW is so proficient at deception, and so good at doing the bare minimum to keep 2long on the hook, I fear the same as you ~ that she'll simply upgrade her effort just enough to keep him dangling.

WOE:


Threadjack graciously accepted! The problem, I think, is that being told we're enabling the WS 2 destroy our love for them by our inaction or waffling, or whatever it's called, hurts, but not for the reason most people think it does. For me, at least, it hurts because it was so impossible for me 2 envision coming up with a plan customized 2 my sitch (remember, you're unique, just like everybody else!) that would be for me and not some attempt 2 get my W 2 do anything. And so I misinterpreted the suggestions that *I* was being unloving via inaction as a contradictory suggestion that I DO try 2 get my W 2 do something. Nested dolls, sort of. Gotta get past the first hurdle before addressing the 2nd one, and the "unloving inaction" was pretty far inside all that - or so I perceived).

The IC thing is similar. My first real IC kept telling me that demanding NC 3 years ago was putting the cart before the horse. I still think he was something of a twit, but he helped me in ways I did need it at the time as well. But by lovingly detaching after that time, I thought I was giving my W the oppor2nity 2 be trustworthy and demonstrate 2 me, all by herself, that she could sever the R with RM and recommit 2 our M. Trouble is, we didn't ever have the depth of communication that we needed 2 make that possible, and so the addiction/attachment 2 RM kept her all this time. And 2 sustain it, she firmed up her fantasy planet so she wouldn't go nuts - in the process re2rning our relationship 2 the one of "emotional unavailability" it was before.

I've been thinking about the counseling/coaching issue. I've been 2 lots over the past 3 years. Mostly, probably because of my own desire 2 love her back 2 our M so that RM would fade away, it's been a lot of money and time for guessing what our interactions mean - and the truly meaningful interactions were very few and far between (often requiring a certain amount of starting over each time). So, recently I'd been thinking that coaching/counseling would just be more of the largely-useless same. But I think I'm changing my mind. I would like 2 resume coaching, with the hope that my W will join me after a few sessions, soon. But it'll only work if I stick 2 my plan, and now that my CACA card is in ashes, I can't imagine doing anything else but keep the momentum going.

My W doesn't want 2 lose momentum either, I think I'm happy 2 say. The last 3 convos about "us" and the Rat Meat Problem (FRMP, the "F" is silent - most of the time, that is) have been initiated by her. ...thinking about the one on the phone yes2rday, in particular, I feel sorry for her (can you IMAGINE such a ridiculous arrangement??), but the feeling quickly passes (like the Eric Frank Russell quote that nobody has commented on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> [the book is downloadable from the internet for FREE, folks, and it's a very quick, and funny, read <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />).

WOE, burning the CACA membership card is the 2rning point I needed. It's what you'll need 2. And while you're pondering how 2 do that, ponder what you said here:

"She does respect me as a father and husband but doesn't treat me accordingly."

When you do, you'll realize that this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And staying put (inaction, lovingly detaching - which can easily 2rn in2 indifference, the opposite of love) is "doing" what Pep admonished us for doing, because if you can't even recognize that your W does NOT respect you as a H, how can you ever hope she ever will?

-ol' 2long

SiSF:

It is SO GOOD 2 hear from you, and so important 2 those still here (and newly arrived) 2 hear from people like you who have survived and thrived!

-ol' 2long

Well, not so sure about the "thrived" part - we've had our setbacks, including fairly recently. But at least we're both committed to pulling the cart in the same direction!

WAT:

I'll check my mail after I respond here.

You are right, and I'm painfully aware how likely I am 2 be "presented" with some not-fast, not-slow <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> "compromise" plan 2 keep things more or less the way they are.

The biggest problems I face right now in hoping my W will agree 2 NC are:

*She doesn't agree on basic definitions of secrecy and lies.

*She's "back" (but really probably never "left") 2 the opinion that she really never wanted 2 get M'd, gave in2 my "need" for SF when she did because it was what I wanted, not her., and maybe even more important:

*She admitted, yes2rday morning, that she has often done very harmful things out of spite.

Remember the old joke? Modified:

Q: Why did the chicken cross the road?
A: 2 get 2 the other side.

Q: Why did the "X-generationer" cross the road?
A: Because somebody told him 2.

Q: Why did Mrs 2long cross the road?
A: Because she thinks someone told her she couldn't. (and it never mattered whether she wanted 2 or not)

-ol' 2long

And for CSue:

Mostly, I pretty much expect this compromise plan attempt. I can't imagine her doing anything conciliatory at all, unless it's going deeper underground under the facade of such a compromise plan.

This steels my resolve, because I'm almost certain it's what will happen.

-ol' 2long

2long...

just wanted you to know that I am
sending positve ozone penetrating requests while still dutifully not impacting global warming in any shape or form.....

when translated by Vulcans and other such ET's...means...

been thinking about you
and keeping you and your family in my prayers....

and sitting on my 2X4 like a good girlie girl for the present time ...for all is still in flux.........

plan to check this thread out in depth tonight at work...(isn't that where all good posts come from )will pipe up when ready...and only if I think I have anything of value to say
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

ARK

Now ARK!

Ozone depletion and global warming are two distinct, though not entirely unrelated, problems.

Heh, heh. I'll destroy this misconception one person at a time.

2long, isn't it cool, finding that you can choose not to CA?

GC

two distinct, though not entirely unrelated, problems.

oxymorons....all of them...

ARK who loves the ozone but is not INlove with the ozone..

(passes the spf 50 and clariton along....)

Who you callin' a moron, ark? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

(I always thought the word "oxymoron" was an oxymoron itself. After all, with more oxygen, we tend 2 think more clearly, not less! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />)

gc:

It is indeed wonderful!

-ol' 2long

I feel a need to clarify a couple of things. If 2long doesn’t mind, I’ll do it here on his thread. (AMM, I promise I’ll keep it short - for me anyway.) I’ve jacked this thread around enough as it is, so I’ll make this the last one.

2long’s W and my W could be emotional twins. Hell, maybe they are the same W and 2long is OM! In any case, the similarities in our situations have amazed, I almost wrote amused, both of us. Even Penny says we are stuck in the same bog.

2long is about 1 ½ years ahead of me in this post LTA D-Day stuff. Since I see a lot of my situation in his, I try to watch and learn. I feel sort of like his side-kick. Hmm, what is the side-kick to a wookie?

I will skip over a discussion of the LTA itself. Suffice it to say it was very long, involved and, well, all the stuff already written. The issue is recovery from an LTA. OK, not to put to fine a point on it, the issue is recovery from an LTA when NC is uncertain.

My W was a master of deception, misdirection and manipulation during her A. That means she was this way for half our 20 year M. She led a double life for so long it was all very normal and ordinary for her. And it felt normal, if unsatisfying, to me too.

Both 2long and I have received assurances of NC. But we both felt/feel unease. They were so good at concealment how would we know even now? I hoped both our wives were maintaining NC. Until this latest D-Day, there was no proof one way or the other for either of us. We lived on hope.

But I do often get a feeling in my gut there is still intermittent contact. For example, when W snaps out of her constant low level of anger and is really nice for a change, does that mean she has had a fix? Life is a constant waiting for yet another shoe to drop.

As far as spying to find out for sure, I am with Weaver. I find it so distasteful I cannot do it. I am not W’s warden. I am her H. She already knows I will not be part of a triangle and I will let her go if she is in any kind of contact. I am not that cosmopolitan. But I will let her go with love.

The trouble with LTAs is that everything, absolutely everything, takes longer. It has taken me over a year just to digest that W could do this for so long, and that I could be fooled so thoroughly. I am only now starting to digest what I should do about it.

In a way, 2long has received a blessing. He now knows for sure. He can now implement a plan. I still do not know for sure. That’s why I am so interested in following the results of 2long implementing his plan. I think I might possibly be in this same place sooner or later.

2long is, IMO, very ethical and compassionate. He has put up with a lot because he loves his W. Like 2long, I am still in love with my W. I will still love her from afar if it comes down to a D. I made this commitment and I will stick around until the last dog is hung. I do not see this as CA. I see it as just the opposite.

Aphelion,

(Ok, and 2Long too) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Why not?! That is, why not do the detective work - and do it consistantly?

You think it's going to compromise something about yourself. But is it not really just a part of being a CA?

Aphelion, since your W is so accustomed to you being passive about this, she will little suspect if you suddenly change gears and put on a full regemine (sp?) of survielance (sp?). Well since I can't spell them words, I mean plainly that if you start doing your full best to watch everything she does 24/7 by whatever means you can devise, you will know for sure. Keeping your head in the sand, under the fig leaf of not wanting to be a snoop, is part of the CA pattern. You have a right to know what your w is doing 24/7 - and she has a right to know what you are doing. Yes, if she "catches you" "snooping", then she will be angry - and indignant - and will say what a bad boy you are, but ultimately that is just a smoke screen. She doesn't want anything to break up her double life and will squeal when something starts to do just that.

C'mon, be brave, be willing to be thought a "bad guy". Snoop to the max!
You say you can't be sure, but you can be sure. You just don't want to do it.

I wish I had done so sooner. If had done so, I would not be in the current fix I'm in. I bought a house for W - when she probably was in contact with OM. If I had known, I wouldn't have done it. Now, buying the house has had the positive effect of giving me another 2.5 years with my daughter - but maybe I would have been just fine getting into the "visitation" thing earlier.

(I'm done with my rant now)

-AD

2long,
I don’t know if this post will have any meaning to you but a few years back when I was forced to come to terms with the unbelievable,…no make that the unthinkable; I almost went the same route with my ex WW as the one you outlined above.

One major difference of course, was that I exhibited far less patience and approached communicating my terms to my ex WW with a level or sarcasm that belied any genuine intention on my part to save the relationship. And thinking back, it was because I wasn’t sure that I wanted her to accept my terms and stay with me.

And I could hear myself acting out. I knew how I was coming across, yet I was powerless to stop myself. Every time I opened my mouth the spite and vitriol came gushing out…no matter what my best intentions were. And as I continued to speak it was as if I was this engine out of control, picking up speed. It seemed that the anger was an entity of it’s own and I was just an observer. Wew! So in the end, I just stopped speaking and learned to keep my mouth shut and listen.

Funny but it was at that point that I noticed control was now my tool. That no matter what air headed excuse or negotiating ploy she attempted to put forth it didn’t matter. I had stated my terms and I didn’t really care if she stayed or if she left. Ambivalence became my personality…not part of it! I was able to sit with her for hours, paying her complete and total attention and say nothing. I was so attentive that an observer might of thought I was hearing the secrets of the universe being imparted to me by “the source of all knowledge!” LOL I stated my terms and then waited, never expecting her to stay.

She squirmed, argued and then ranted with a rage that was surreal but I refused to engage. It was as if my previous sarcasm fed her will to appose me simply to prove to both her self and I that she could. But when I stopped interacting in her silly little drama it became reality! To her and to me. This was the end! It was happening! The unthinkable was occurring. I had at last accepted it. And she was enraged that I could actually mean it! That I was gone. But to hell with her! I was finally at peace. My decision made, the dye cast the inevitable realized and accepted as something that was. And so when she relented, gave into every requirement I stipulated and said she was willing to do anything I asked, I was depressed beyond belief!

How dare she suddenly come out of the fog and bring along with her, new levels of confusion, anxiety and fear for me to learn to live with. It wasn’t fair! She was doing it to me again. Pulling me back into a reality requiring me to feel again and be vulnerable again. But I went along with it…because I had stated the terms and to now not meet my end of the bargain would have been more then dishonest. It would have been indecent.

And we recovered and I love my wife and I’m happy, but you know what 2long…just not as much as before and with as much passion. She blinked, I won but did I really? It would kill her to read this post, but she knows…I know she does. You can’t make believe about something like this…and she is above all else brilliant, so she knows. Yet, she will not give up…she will work at it till we are both in the grave…trying to bring me back to where I once was. My questions is why, and it’s in the fact that I will always wonder about the answer to this question that my sadness safely resides.

Be careful 2long. Be very careful.
Coach

Ap:

Like me, your unwillingness 2 "spy", (most of the time, in my case, not all of it) is likely being used against you.

[sidebar. I don't think I've said this, but my W told me that, although she usually deletes messages 2/from RM from her account, sometimes she leaves them on for a while 2 see if I'm spying. end sidebar]

Without SOME means of verification that something or nothing is going on, you simply will never know which.

But also like me, you've learned 2 live with the subliminal pain for so long that you don't even know what true marital commitment feels like. (I intend 2 find out).

I realized shortly after d-day that my own unwillingness 2 be open and honest with my W about my deepest personal feelings stemmed from the knowledge that she was passing that information on 2 RM - distilled perhaps, twisted certainly - and I don't want him 2 hear or even infer a single thing about me or my life that can't be found by a simple internet search by anyone.

I'm still doing it, though not so much anymore, because I now KNOW why my M isn't further along the recovery road than it should be (heck, it hasn't even pulled away from the curb - and curbs include gutters, you know). Opening up as a show of good faith, in hopes she'll do likewise, is a risk. But realizing that this pitiful pathetic 2wit of an RM can't hurt me, and the fact that progress involves risk, has helped me 2 finally take the risk.

It has been a blessing 2 know for sure what's going on and why things still aren't good between us. I don't want "back 2 normal" because the withdrawl, the A and the lies were normal in our marriage. I want marriage like I've never had it before.

Let me say something about how I feel about my unconditional love for my W:

*Yes, I have put up with a lot because I love her, but that isn't unconditional love, that's fear-motivated clinginess. As for whether I'm "in love" with her? No, I'm currently not. Romantic love may re2rn, but not under anything like the present "arrangement", which lacks true commitment that I believe is needed 2 support and foster romantic love. RM not only has 2 be gone for the desire for romantic love 2 re2rn, I need her 2 no longer cherish the memory of him. After all this time, that is going 2 be difficult for her (and the romantic attraction 2 re2rn for me), if it's even possible (or wise).

*Yes, I will continue 2 love her from afar if we split. But mimi said this best: I can be her husband and friend, or I can be her ex-husband, but I can't be her ex-husband and friend. If we divorce, it will be due 2 an inability for both of us 2 reconnect and exclusively commit 2 one another. I will be happy 2 see her in immediate family settings, but I will not entrust her with my heart if we divorce due 2 her inability 2 jettison RM from hers.

*I also made a commitment 2 be faithful 2 her for the rest of my life. But she hasn't reciprocated in a very long time. I don't necessarily need a renewal of vows ceremony, but I most definitely will need a renewed commitment WITH VERIFICATION, before I'll stick around. The last dog has been skinned alive and hung out 2 dry.

It's been pointed out many times before, what the Harley's say. The 3 states of marriage include

*intimacy
*conflict
*withdrawl

*for at least 15 years, probably more like 23, we've been in withdrawl most of the time.

*Last week, I was still in withdrawl, which I mistakenly interpreted as intimacy because I was offered closeness just prior. But that closeness was probably a ruse 2 hide continued contact.

*THIS IS TRUTH: You can't get back 2 intimacy from withdrawl without going through conflict first. END OF DISCUSSION (but look up Pep's Conflict Avoiders thread for more information).

You must burn your CA card, or you'll be stuck forever. Believe me, I'm living proof. Lighting that match will seem like the hardest thing for you 2 do, but boy! Watching that sucker BURN is EXHILERATING!

-ol' 2long

wow wow wow wow...Coach

what are you saying you would have done differently...
wow
that was probably hard to post...
thank you for your brutal honestly...

what would you have changed...

ARK

Wow coach!

I think that goes for me too.

If W turns around, what will I do?

But I really haven't given her any terms, so she'll have to beg for them. I don't expect that.

-AD

Coach:

Thank you very much for that. The thought does occur.

best,
-ol' 2long

Just a point - that perhaps is obvious - but has not always been intuitive to me...

Conflict means that somebody will say that you are wrong or that you are doing somethign bad. Your spouse's simple assertion along these lines are a normal, neccesary and even essential aspect of conflict. I'm one of the guys who always wants to be the good guy. It serously pains me when W asserts that I am not. But, that is the essence of conflict. And, as was just pointed out (reminder of Harley's principles) conflict is on the path to intimacy.

We have to go through it.

Maybe we won't get there, but for sure we won't get there without conflict - that is, without our wives saying that we are either doing wrong or are "bad".

-AD

Wow .... (((( COACH ))))

that was powerful and moving.

Thanks so much for making yourself available in this way.

wow...

Pep

AD:

Don't mistake "conflict" and "angry outbursts" or DJs.

I try 2 think of conflict as a necessary, even healthy thing. Conflict with empathy and compassion for the other's perspective. Validation that their views are theirs, rather than undermining the person by attacking them.

-ol' 2long