We have all heard the stories about how women say they like the nice guys, but give their hearts (and sometimes their bodies) to the bad boys.

Most likely we nice guys have also seen this happen first hand. While we go home alone, the woman we find attractive goes off with the bad boy. A few weeks later we find out from her friend how poorly she was treated.

So, I would like to suggest a topic for discusion.

How can we be nice, caring, nurturing males, while we, at the same time, keep and exhibit our masculine sexualtiy for those wonderful women to enjoy?

How can we avoid being the bad boy, while at the same time avoid being "too nice", "too boring", and "to predictable"? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I don't know the answer to this, but something tells me finding out might be a lot of fun! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for starting this, Justin. I am really interested in what responses it might garner.

One thing I've heard from more than one woman is "I can't believe I'm telling this to a guy." Each time from someone who is not interested in me, as she is sharing her romantic troubles. Should that tell me something? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/ooo.gif" alt="" />

Nice guys finish last. That's where I am at. I am a rear runner! I hate that "you're a nice guy" comment. I wanna be the rebel, the bad boy that has women throwing their panties at my feet as I walk through the room. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Gentlemen, it only seems that nice guys finish last. You just have to keep in mind that you don't want to be friends. I don't think you have to be a rebel, but you do want to be masculine. However, I can't imagine that JustinE or Gnome aren't masculine. Life Goes On, I don't know you enough to comment.

Maybe you all just need to brush up on your flirting skills. You know those looks that suggest you'd turn her to jelly if you got her alone.

On the other hand, I'm not even dating, so what do I know?

There is an author, David Deida, who explores the recent history of male-female roles/traits in relationships.

1. The "traditional" 50s male as "breadwinner" and female as "housewife and mom".

2. The 60s, 70s 80s,etc., men who are becoming more "feminine", sensitive to feelings, "partners" in marriage, shared household responsibilites, etc.

3. Mr. Deida suggests that neither arrangement is necessarily the optimal. Mr. Deida puts forth a new paradigm that he feels is more balanced, healthier, in terms of male and female roles in a marriage...as well as the individual development of males and females.

Mr. Deida suggests that there may be a role for males to assume more action/take charge in a relationship. And that women also have some need to feel "taken care of". Now, he is NOT suggesting going back to the 50s!!

I find his writings and ideas to be quite a challenge. He is very explicit in his discussions. Very open in discussing sexual dynamics ( by the way, supports faithful, monogamous marriages!)and how they impact on each partner of a marriage. He is a "spiritual" but not religious man. This is not casual reading, but presents another viewpoint in balancing that "nice" guy with the "sexy, passionate" guy. He also examines a different balance/blend for women.

His website is www.DeidaCentral.com You can also do a book search under his name to review some of his writings.

Good boy vs. bad boy?? Well most would probably say my first husband was a good boy (suit, tie, professional, always does the "proper" thing)and my second a bad boy (long hair, earring, jeans, house painter, a bit of a rebel) One might look better, more acceptable in public, but both had their strengths and weaknesses. My marriage counselor said that the healthiest marriages involve both "passion and safety". I find that to be quite the challenge to develop!

I think it depends on where you and the woman are in their lives. I am not interested in bad boys - though at one point in my life I was attracted to that. My first love was a bad boy, and still was when I looked him up after not seeing him for nearly 15 years.

There is a mature version of the "bad boy" I think, and that's what I want now. So, maybe we should explore what we mean by "nice guy" and "bad boy".

For me: Instead of wreckless and irresponsibility, I want someone who is still a risk taker and likes to have fun, but isn't so into himself and hedonism that he has no time for me. Someone who can tolerate chaos and ambiguity in life, and laugh in spite of it all.

My bad girl days of hitchhiking across the country, sleeping in Balboa Park, and having no place to hang my hat are over. They were fun, but they are over now. My days of doing nothing with my life except hanging out and being carefree are also over. Now, I call that a "vacation" instead of a lifestyle. I'd still love to travel the country (by motorhome instead of by thumb), love to resume my photography hobby and take pictures all over the place, sleep under the stars (but this time without risking snakes crawling into my sleeping bag) - and I'd love to find someone to do this with.

What I wouldn't give for a nice guy, capable of caring for more than himself, taking his responsibilities seriously and being there for his partner. To h*ll with all the superficialities. To h*ll with competing for the flirt who is out there trying to see how many women he can attract. Someone else can have him - I'm not putting my energies into that.

Maybe the bad boy's attractiveness is that he 'don't take no crap from no woman' [although he sure loves to dish it, don't he?] <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

But seriously, we all know that a needy person is more repulsive than attractive, and sadly many 'nice guys' act so needy that the women they are trying to woo are more than turned off by them. And even if a nice guy happens to get one of these women to be his girlfriend, he becomes so emotionally dependent on her that he tolerates the grossest violations of disrespect from her. He is so affraid to lose her that he will do anything to keep her, even tolerate her infidelity with a so called bad boy. He literally has no life without her. Contrast this with the bad boy's attitude towards his girlfriend of 'I like you but I sure as heck don't need you' and doesn't care whether she likes his independent behavior or not.

A nice guy can be just attractive as a bad boy, if not more so, by having boundaries that he will implement if the girl he loves violates them. If she lies, cheats or disrespects him in other ways, he can show her that he is no doormat and dump her on the spot no matter how much it hurts him.

This also works for women as well for men do not respect, let alone love, a woman who has very little self respect that she allows her man to disrespect her.

So boys and girls, if we want to be attractive to one another, then growing a backbone is what is really needed.

TMCM

TMCM, I think you hit the nail on the head. Women want a strong man. We want strength, courage and character, not irresponsibility and badness. However, we also like to know that there's an edge of power underneath the restraint. We want to know that the man is capable of protecting us. Sorry, but it's true. A throw back to days when the world was more dangerous. I also think a bit of swagger helps. Confidence is attractive in everyone.

Also, gentlemen, I'd suggest if a woman you are interested in tries to tell you about some she likes, you should shut her down immediately.

Can only give my own view on good boy vrs. bad boy

When I was younger - say 25 to 30 I did go out w/a couple of "bad boys" - it was exciting BUT I also liked the good boys. They took you to a nice dinner, drinks maybe a movie - they took their time winning your heart. The bad boys just took you...maybe you got a few drinks, but not much more.

Anything that lasted over a year was always w/a good boy.

I will say - one of my most exciting relationships was a guy that was inbetween - but what he had that got me hooked was spontinaity (spelling??)...All the crazy stuff was fun..it kept me going back for more. I never knew what was going to happen next or what we were going to do..He was a blast and I loved him for that..He had devilish blue eyes and the moment I met him (even though I was on a first date w/someone else) I knew we were going to hook up - he was awesome. I run into him maybe once year and this relationsip was 20 years ago and he still intrigues me...I still feel that magnitisim..

As for now that I'm older - I haven't a clue what might capture my spirit..When I met WH he told me what a "nice guy" he was..I should have ran..Anyone that has to tell you that ISN"T A NICE GUY...He's just trying to convince himself that he's nice..Most people believe he's a nice guy - but they don't know truth in who he is..I watched him shake hands and put his arm around of his MOW husbands - I couldn't believe anyone could be so 2-faced..Hey, how are you?? Good to see you....You don't know it -- but, I'm screwing your wife...

I think I want someone in between - someone fun, someone that brings out the best in me...I've learnt that looks shouldn't be the most important thing about man - though, I do want him to be clean and neat. But, I want him to look good to me on the inside first. I want him to be clear like spring water that I can inside of him - I want honesty and openess. I want him to have a little spark of devil in him.

I want him to be mature enough to keep himself busy when I'm doing my horse stuff not sitting in bar - I'd prefer him to do horse things w/me but that's a real tough find. I dont' want to be his "everything" - I learnt that by doing to much for my WH that I became his mother not his wife/lover...

Any tips on how a "nice guy" can become more of a "bad boy"? I get that dreaded "nice guy" comment all the time. I hate it.

Heh. Lyrics from The Eagles' "One of These Nights" come to mind:

Guilty as charged. TMCM as usual has it down!

"Nice" guys turn me off. I don't want someone who will just roll over for me. Needy? ewwwwwww. Boring.

I like: Confidence...Passion...The one who stands out in the crowd. Someone who challenges me. Competitive. They don't have to be bad, usually they turn out to be nice too -- its just not the first thing you notice about them.

I would guess that "bad boy" behavior probably varies in its definition, depending on the person. For me, it's when a guy deviates some from their general image, persona, behavior, "norm". They stand out in a crowd, but not necessarily in a vulgar way.

I can't think of specific male examples, but I'll share some of my own. I am well-educated (Master's degree from the University of Michigan), professionally employed, dress up-to-date in a manner appropriate to my position, wear light make-up, hair nicely done, feminine appearance, have a well developed vocabulary, like to read, enjoy classical music. Grew up in a small town as a "good Christian girl".

I have added and substracted some new traits in the past 10 years or so. People who think they have me pegged by the aformentioned traits are often surprised by me.

-I love riding on motorcycles, intend to have my own someday,..I get restless when spring comes and the bikes hit the highway. My current motorcycle helmet has a sticker with "Bit-h" on the back..and I see it as a compliment!
-I have a tatoo above my right ankle.
-I go to "live" rock concerts and sit on the grass, not under a pavilion.
- I have gone on a Native American sponsored Vision Quest and participated in sweat lodges and medicine wheels.
-I took training to be a massage therapist, encorporating wholistic concepts.
-I no longer consider myself to be a "Christian", but a "spiritual" person. I believe there are many paths to "God". Previously, I thought I would go to hell for this belief. My behaviors and values remain very similar,
regardless of the religious label.(And no, I do NOT choose to get into a discussion regarding this value with any well-intentioned Christians on this site. Besides, I think I'm covered. I went to the altar and got "saved" when I was younger!)
-I drive a red, hard top Jeep Wrangler...not a Cherokee...a Wrangler.
-My favorite vacations are going tent camping. Not trailers, not hotels.
-I've become a red head, no longer having pale, mousey, light brown colored hair.
-I've added..hmmmm..shall I say a few more "colorful" words to my vocabulary. Not that I'm super proud of this, but I no longer practically faint when someone curses. Of course these words are not a daily norm, nor are they done in the presence of children.

These examples may not seem like "bad girl/rebel" behaviors to some people. They are for me. And frequently take others by surprise.

Dang it, heartmending!! Motorcylces, tatoos, sweat lodges and car camping. I can deal with all of this disreputable activities except for the car camping. That is over the top! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

With all do respect, I don't think these make you a bad girl, but rather are part of your personal growth. And growth makes us interesting, don't you agree?

But, the bad boy, is just that. He is not in it for personal growth, unless one considers deception, hurting others to get what one wants, and notches on the bed post a form of personal growth.

Still, keep up the good work.

Bye the way, does you hair color match your Jeep color?

OK, this is thought-provoking. The woman I'm interested in knows that I am reliable and responsible, and that I have strength, courage, and character. She knows that I have a strong interest in her, but I don't believe I have been at all "needy" and she knows that I have done a very creditable job of respecting her boundaries, including giving her space instead of pushing for more than what she is willing to give. She also knows that I've got her back (to use her words).

The "confidence" aspect is an interesting point to consider. I am intelligent and educated and talented, and I know it. I am not afraid to speak up on just about any subject - I may be even too quick to do so - but neither am I afraid to admit when I don't know something. And I am not afraid to admit when I was wrong - although this has usually been in matters of judgement rather than in matters of fact. I am not afraid to try new things.

However, I may well be too self-deprecating - although ironically this is almost entirely in one context. But it just so happens that it is her context. This woman I'm interested in...she is actually one of my teachers in a certain...skill. It's how I got to know her. She's a professional, and I'm...well, let's just say that I'm a rather slow student. I try, but if my object in developing this skill was to try to impress her, I'd have to be considered a miserable failure. I have shown progress, but...

Tenacity is not the same thing as confidence. And despite the encouragement of my teachers - including her - I have a not-so-secret fear that the best adjective to describe me in this context is "pathetic." The proverb says "If at first you don't succeed, try, try again." Yeah, sure, but...at some point, don't you have to start thinking that it might be time to turn your attention to something else - something you have more aptitude for? Especially when you actually do have the aptitude for a good number of other things?

I wonder whether my lack of confidence in this context could be affecting how I am perceived more generally - at least by her.

Just as a clarification: the women who were talking to me about their romantic troubles were not women in whom I myself had a romantic interest. (Well...one of them I could definitely go for if it weren't for the fact that we don't seem to want the same things out of life.) However, GG, your advice to "shut down" a woman talking about another guy if I were interested in her is...thought-provoking.

My first reaction was "Why? If she's a friend, I'm going to be interested in what's going on in her life, regardless of my own preferences. And whether or not she ends up with this guy, I'm still going to want to be friends. So what's the problem?" Then, on further consideration, I realized that by serving as a sympathetic ear, I would be entrenching myself in her own perceptions as a man who is "just" a friend. The "safe" kind of friend who might as well be a woman except that he might be able to give the occasional "male perspective" on something when it's useful. And who might be able to open the occasional jar.

Ouch. This one really stings, because I have been doing my best to avoid using those flirting skills which I do have. What would happen, I wonder, if - just in conversation - I casually reach out and touch her lightly on the arm...here. What if I hold her gaze just a little bit longer...now. What if... What if...

I don't do it. She doesn't want to be pursued, and for me to do so, even in such subtle ways, would be to disrespect her wishes.

Wouldn't it?

I would no longer be quite so "safe."

Would I? (Is that bad?)

Or do I really avoid doing these things simply because I am afraid that if I did pursue her this way I would learn how little chance I really have. At least this way I can soothe my fragile male ego with the thought that it is really only my honor which is keeping us apart.

<sigh> So much for confidence.

She's a hugger. She hugs even people she barely knows. But she rarely hugs me. I cannot help but think it has a lot to do with the fact that she knows how I feel about her, but I'm not sure exactly what her thinking is in this. She doesn't seem to be wary of me at all. Maybe she's trying to avoid the possibility that I might misinterpret the gesture - although occasionally, when sufficiently overwhelmed, she forgets and hugs me, and I have not tried to make it more than it is.

But what I really suspect is that she is just sensing the wall I have put up to respect her boundaries, and she is - possibly without even realizing it - respecting that wall. If that's true, then...

How could she ever be attracted to a guy who puts up a wall against her?

Interesting.

Is there another teacher of this certain...skill?

Maybe you could get better at the certain...skill on your own/with another teacher and do other things with this woman at which you are more confident in yourself.

Best of luck!

Gnome, how much time do you have left in this class? Perhaps you could ask her out upon completion of this class. Just say something like "Now that our class is over I'd really like to take you out to dinner, would you let me do that?" Hopefully she says yes and you go from there.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I couldn't agree more unless all you are looking for is friendship.

Once you put up with that with someone you are attracted too...hmmm...you are just one of the girls.

My feeling on that is obviously I didn't let this person know I am interested in them if they are willing to dicuss their dating life with me. Once you allow that to happen you aren't an available man anymore, you are a crutch.

Not good

RebornMan