I posted this in another thread but would be keen to hear opinions on this.

I find it is almost impossible to negotiate with my W because she goes on about all the things a husband 'should' be doing that she sees as non-negotiable (e.g. bringing in a six figure income every year is not giving to her, it's something a good husband/father 'should' do). Hence, giving (meeting her ENs) only occurs for things beyond what a H 'should' be doing already.

Any ideas about how to progress?

Your wife is selfish and is ruining your marriage. What can you do with a woman like that except keep setting boundaries.

1. Dont give her any money
2. Make her work and pay off her debts.

Why did you let her walk all over you? My husband would have put his foot down if I was spending us into the poorhouse. But I work and do not overspend nor does he.

Does your wife not love you? Why is she simply using you as a human wallet? And disrespecting you on top of that when you give her everything? What kind of woman is this?

What stellakat said.

Same advice, same ?'s. Except I'd change one to "Why do you allow her to use you like a human wallet"...

She must have some pretty extraordinary perceptions of "how things are supposed to be". It can't only be financial, what other exciting revelations are there?

I originally came to MB because I searched on the words 'Givers' and 'Takers' on Google. I am so physically and emotionally tired of giving financially. I just don't have any motivation to meet her other emotional needs and yes, I have angry outbursts. But she claims she doesn't know why I'm angry all the time. I really don't have the energy for a Plan A.

I keep trying to negotiate something because of the kids. They have a chance of a great future if we can hold it together for another 3-5 years. Cutting off the money would be the nuclear option, like a Plan B. It would also possibly be the full enchilada - scenes in the bank, calling the cops, fleeing overseas with the kids, etc.

She is the type to get up in your face, block doors, hold on to you, when you try to leave to cool off etc. However, I am really at the end of my tether. Anything is preferable to living like this - which really tears me up when I think about wrecking my kid's lives.

It doesn't appear that your W holds to the same standards.

Do you think your kids really don't already have this figured out? WHat's the *real* message you're sending? Keep the marriage together through all kinds of abusive/disrespectful behavior? Or perhaps that irresponsible behavior doesn't have a consequence? Or perhaps it's good to let people just walk all over you? Or maybe it's just better to seethe and stew, and just keep that slow anger burning so you can eventually die an angry bitter man? Are these really the truths you want to model for your kids so they can follow the same pattern in their relationships? Really?

Do you think that somehow, when your youngest turns 18 that there won't be any consequence at that time? That something magical happens that the breakup or whatever may happen has no impact because now they're 18?

I'm just really trying to see the upside. I don't see it. I don't think you do either.

And hey, don't for an instant think that I don't think you and your W should work on your issues. The marriage is important. Living in abuse isn't. If the same things are creating the same responses, something has to give.

You sell your children way too short, and do them a disservice.

If it's a nuclear option, then it's a nuclear option. Sucks, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it still isn't right. Your W's poor response to your correct behavior is *not* your problem. It may *cause* you a problem, but that's completely different.

I think you may be seeing some symptomatic behavior of the very young marriage. Gonna have to work within those limitations.

Funny part, Jaye, is that she is 9 1/2 years older than me. I was the very young immature one, not her. Currently, we are 37 and 47.

There seems to be a pretty big debate about whether kids are better inside or outside a poor relationship. Yes, the kids probably have some awful models to follow whatever happens.

My daughter came up to me the other day and said get over my money issues. I come across as the bad guy because I am always upset and angry. A lot of my W's spending is on things for the kids so they see her and the giver and me as the displinarian.

I appreciate your advice.

Hey Stev, I was just surfing on the website and came across your post. Unfortunately I am usually posting on the pregnancy/child board as my H had an affair which produced a child.

When reading your post it struck a cord in me. I am a stay-at-home-mom and when H and I had children we agreed that H would support us while children were young. I am currently in school as my youngest is 3 and we need the extra income. As it is now, I have no skills to make a decent income that would make it worth it for me to go to work.

Anyway, though my situation wasn't as drastic, I recognize some of the dynamics going on in your home.

H and I fought a lot before A. Though I appreciated H's financial support, I didn't make that clear. I was resentful for how much time away he spent from us feeling like I was raising my children alone. He was home for dinner maybe once or twice a week. He spent 3 or 4 nights out a week as he is in a 12-step program and needed to make meetings. I understood this, but still felt "alone" and "trapped" much of the time. Looking back, I can see his lack of motivation in wanting to come home in the first place. He felt like I was always unhappy with him or had a complaint about something...and I did. In other words, OUR EMOTIONAL NEEDS WERE NOT BEING MET. He was angry much of the time also, understanding now that this was because of his own frustration and feeling unappreciated. there were many times where I tryed to approach him calmly, but he frequently got defensive and it turned into a shouting match. There were many times he tried to "exit" the argument by leaving and to me this was more avoidance and made me angry and I tryed to stop him...obviously escalating things.

I don't know what advice for you I have. We didn't meet eachother on even ground until D was inevitable. But looking back I see that both of us were so stuck in resentment by what we weren't getting from the other person that we were unwilling to try to meet the other's needs. Once the sh%$ hit the fan we both saw our own failures in our marriage, our lack of compromise and poor communication skills. I would suggest MC, looking at the info on EN and trying to focus on what you can do to change things within your M. As it is, your M seems doomed and the children are currently not benefiting from you "sticking it out". One thing I thought of after having to really look at my place in the demise of the marriage is that sometimes if one person just starts meeting the EN of the other (whether you think they deserve it or not) it takes the defensiveness curtain down and the other starts meeting your needs as well. Of course your W may have some childhood issues as to why she thinks it's "your job" to support her and the children to their every whim and this is where MC comes in, but I think it's crucial that you take steps to change the dynamics in your relationship before something like what has happened to me happens to you. Good Luck!! HUGS

Thank you very much for sharing, ColdDay. I agree that our patterns are very similar and that something has to change. We have tried MC several times (including a whole weekend in CA) and formal mediation.

I find the prospect of a Plan A really tough.
1) I feel exhausted giving what I am already giving
2) What I am giving now is not appreciated and this is the thing I am best at giving
3) I don't feel strong in the other areas of giving so I feel I will screw it up and not be appreciated again

Does this make sense? Have things changed for the better for you? How has your H changed? How did you change?

My H and I tryed MC several times also, to no avail.

You are obviously both very unhappy. It was very helpful for both of us to fill out the emotional needs questionaire together. And then to try to meet those needs for eachother. Of course both of you have to be willing. Perhaps your W doesn't realize how serious you are about this and you could tell her where you're at with this. I do think something has to change. Perhaps you could even take a temporary leave of the household in an effort to get her attention. This didn't work well for H and I obviously, but if YOU have the goal in mind to gain your W's attention and honestly work on repairing your M, it may work. Of course it may not, but then you'd know she is not willing and unless both are willing, reparation is not possible. It is hard on the kids but the constant battle IS worse for your children than if you two were to separate. I wish you luck.

In answer to your questions, things between H and I have never been better and I've known him since I was 15. We are connected in a way that we haven't been in many years. We still struggle with communication on occasions, but the tifs are short and we reconnect more quickly. When we fought before I frequently thought "This is it! I can't take this anymore", but because we have made "us" a priority and give to each other in a way that the other "feels" those fights don't take on the drama or absoluteness that they once did. I guess our love banks are that much more full, so a withdrawal here and there doesn't make such a big difference. We are committed, we are friends, we listen to each other and we respect eachother. It's hard to explain except that we both are just so much more willing. I don't complain when he's not here (and he's still gone 3 nights a week) because when he is here we "connect", we snuggle, we talk, we make love. We tell eachother and/or show eachother everyday we love one another. We go on dates. When H gets angry about something (I do think he has a quick temper) I don't feed into it and he usually realizes he was feeling stressed or frustrated and it wasn't necessaily "me". I also don't hold resentments. When I "need" something from him I calmy, plainly tell him w/o the emotional guilt trip and so far he's been cooperative, realizing that each of our personal happiness involves our happiness as a couple. I guess that relates to the POJA. Basically, the things that were SO important before have taken on a lesser importance considering the drama that had taken over our lives.

PS meeting eachother's needs does not have to involve you doing more, it may mean that you each do it differently. Once we filled out that questionaire we found out that some of the things each of us was doing for the other in an effort to "give", was not necessarily the most important need for the other person.

Wow, thanks for sharing so deeply with me. Your story gives me hope. The thing that is not clear to me is what changed to break the deadlock?

All I can say is for me it was about a month after seeparation from H. Being alone I had time to think about what I really wanted. I read books, a controversial one called "The Proper Care and Feeding of a Husband", I worked on myself, my own issues, etc. Un fortunately it didn't happen at that time for H. It was not until he revealed his 2 month affair and the OW's pregnancy. I was done. I was getting a D. I made ammends to him for the things that I recognized that I had done to harm our marriage. I loved him, but it was over. I saw a lawyer (though he didn't know). For 3 weeks there was no other way for me...this was his wake up call. The affair had ended weeks before he told me, a week b4 he found out about pregnancy, so I think he was beginning to come around, but the willingness he had with the end vividly clear was the only thing that made him willing. I wish there were some other way for us, but sometimes, for some people it takes that much. Best wishes.

That was the same way for me in my recovery. Booted out of the house, had to sit and really take stock. Total of about 7 months separated, 2 years or so before things were pretty decent.

Her kicking me out was the only thing that saved our marraige. And there was no affair or anythign like that.

Thanks for the info, Jaye and colddayinJuly.

We had a pretty major break 12 months ago with a formal mediation agreement and tickets for my W and kids back to our home country (on another continent). My W insisted on return tickets so she could collect her stuff from the house at a later date.

Every time she called I said don't come back. After 5 weeks, she returned on the return date of the tickets, and just....stayed. Nothing changed. Partly, I think she realized she would not be able to support herself back home and the loss of face of telling her parents (which she never did).

She has this habit of saying...wait until school finishes, or wait until after the kid's birthdays etc. Am I being used or is she trying to genuinely hang onto the marriage?

I think you're being used. If nothing has changed, then some outside thing has to happen to upset the equilibrium and break the deadlock. You see the problem, so you will have to initiate it.

There are probably a few different ways to do it, but if your W is the vindictive retrubution type, I'd talk to a lawyer abotu how to protect your family. Close accounts, open new ones in you rname, redirect income and bills to a PO box that only you have a key to and bank accounts tha tyou control, and set up some kind of "household" fund that covers basic necessities like food and such.

Your W seems afraid to face the problem and just tackle it.

I don't envy you your task, but the situation can only get worse without something happening.

Once responsibility is demonstrated, then things move to more normal. The goal is not to have you be the arbiter of how every penny is spent, it's just to bring about unity in how the money is spent. POJA wrt financies as it were.

It is a bit hard to fathom that everyting else is fine and this is the only issue. Not impossible, but is there some other area, or some fear she has that may be driving this? Is this the only area she feels she has any control in the relationship? Or something like that?

Thanks, Jaye. That was exactly what I was thinking about doing and the PO box was a useful twist.

Re: other issues

16 years ago she admits her biological clock was ticking (I was 21, she 30), claimed she was allergic to birth control pills and condoms, got pregnant (with my help, yes, stupid me), kept child, I stayed to raise child.

I still resent her choice but it illustrates the way she acts unilaterally without negotiating anything. Why was I with her in the first place - because I craved the warm family life she had after my cold dysfunctional one. Sigh.

Hmmm, so you had been with her for 3 years, you obviously believe she got pregnant on purpose and then had the baby when this was not want you wanted?? So "you resent her choice", you had/have choices too. So, who are you really mad at? Sorry Stev, but after having been through all I have with H, I know there is more than one side to every issue. Your W may be a self-centered, know-it-all, spoiled brat. Tell her what you want (you may need IC counseling to figure that out), accept the choices she makes and decide what you are going to do. Quit blaming her for your miserableness, you have choices, she is what she is, we can all change, but that doesn't mean we're going to anytime soon, your children will be fine as long as you keep it together (mentally). Your post struck a nerve with me again, obviously. I don't know how to be objective here, but part of my life includes accepting people for who they are (even the disfunctional ones) and taking care of myself.

Also, I've heard and believe we many times marry what we knew as a child..."cold" "dysfunctional", could be your W. But don't resent her for a choice you made as wrong as it MAY have been for you. Open your eyes and create a life you want, with or without her, but, please stop blaming her. You also "just stayed" you also didn't change. I'm not letting your W off the hook, but YOU are responsible for how YOU feel.

Any chance your feeling out of control of your life (unplanned child) is breeding extra resentment towards somebody that is out of control of theirs (financially)?

Jaye, what it does is remind me that my W often acts unilaterally because she did so 16 years ago (in a major way). She didn't care about US then and probably doesn't care about US now.

Or, more likely, she thinks she knows what is best for us. I saw a woman on another thread say she would just go ahead and have a baby without her SO's consent because she knew that was what he really wanted <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />