I see, and your opinion makes sense. However, I still disagree. When you have the plain facts in front of you (as AD did) and you choose to make up what you please and post it without verifying it against the plain facts in front of you (as AD did), that is definitely lying by any reasonble adult definition of lying/not lying. I agree with you that it's not strictly lying if lying/not lying is defined as suitable for a small child.

As for the "harshness" of my response, I suspect a lot of that is what you're reading into it. You may dislike the laughing-at-the-dumb-things-all-of-us-humans-do approach, but that doesn't mean your reaction to it is universal.

Geez... dont ya'll think this is going too far??? Good grief.... threadjacking is one thing... over-analyzing a simple misunderstanding is another. Let it go... like AD is trying to do...

Refreshing not to be on the recieveing end of this sort of thing for a change... This is the stuff that happends endlessly (and needlessly) all the time...no one was rude, harsh, unreasonable, or out of line...and efforts to "prove" that are silly (IMO), people just have different levels of sensibility (thank goodness) and communication styles, and will not change them, so arguing about it is an exercise in futility. I am not much into molly-coddleing myself, so find MOS responses just fine...AD is being unreasonably (IMO...laughing...) truculent, and dramatic as well. He needs to own his behavior WITHOUT making it about someone else, it is a gift to be held accountable, hopefully he appreciates that. However, I am sure he is "hurting" in a feeling sense, and just reacting, but this place is group therapy (sort of), and he needs to be called on it....not supported in, or wallow in it....how else will he ever get healthy? Chastising MOS just dilutes her message, one he needed to hear.

I don't know faith, I think this was useful actually, clearly AD has some issues that hurt him, so a short digression surrounding that seems helpful...but I agree, has about run it's course.

I have no problem with laughing at the dumb things we all do, and I think it can often be an effective means of defusing embarrassment - especially when combined with sharing a rapport-building anecdote of our own. However, I've never been one to quite grasp the humor in laughing in the face of another's pain. Obviously, given the relative success of America's Funniest Home Videos and my own reaction to much of what I've seen on that show, I draw the line in a different place than a lot of people. Chalk it up to an overly-empathic element in my character if you will. Sort of unusual in a left-brain-dominant individual, I suppose, but there it is.

To bring this back on the topic of clues for the clueless and sexual cues, I think it's a fair statement that if a man fails to cultivate a level of sensibility consistent with the feelings of a woman one wishes to court, all the sexual cues in the world will be useless. (I imagine that women typically have more leeway.) Refusal to make changes in this area will remove a significant portion of the female population from the pool of possible partners, or at least result in a lot more suffering than is necessary. Of course, everyone must make their own determination of whether developing such relationship skills is a compromise of their personal identity. If I decide that being a boor is integral to who I want to be, then I should also be willing to accept the consequences of that decision.

Ah, I see where we differ, interesting. You're saying that someone who is in real pain, like AD currently is, always gets a little sensitivity, which is a good and valid viewpoint. I think that when you cross certain lines of behavior, you never get extra sensitivity no matter what excuse you think you have, which is a good and valid viewpoint. I respect yours, don't know if you respect mine, but thanks for the enumeration.

Edited to add: Or another way to put it is I think anyone always deserves the right to laugh their head off at anyone who gratuitously attacks them with lies about what they did not do, no matter what excuse for it is claimed. Taking away a healthy coping strategy from the victim of the lying attack doesn't help anyone.

I also like your point about how if you're out of tune with the sensibilities of the person you're courting, a good line won't help you in the slightest.

Agreed, although I do believe there are other more relationally-sensitive coping mechanisms (e.g. empathic listening) which could be used. Admittedly, these tend to be more difficult to develop.

Oh of course they can be used. I just don't think it's appropriate to use them in the case of a gratuitous lying attack; that just enables the verbal abuse tactics of the attacker, and doesn't help anyone. If the attacker wants empathic listening, it's their responsibility to behave with basic decency.

Back when I was still married, I was sometimes on the receiving end of grotesquely unfair accusations from my wife. For years I simply "took it," trying to satisfy myself with my own knowledge that I was innocent of the charges - except that occasionally I got pushed too far and responded harshly in my own defense, saying things that were brutally honest but which never found a receptive ear. That approach did no good for either of us.

In the last year before my wife left me, our counselor worked with us on empathic listening. (Perhaps more accurately, he worked with me on empathic listening, as my wife showed little interest in practicing the skill.) The results for me were quite astounding. Instead of reacting defensively to my wife's words, I found myself hearing the pain in her heart and recognizing that her attacks were not so much personally directed at me, but were more a reflexive lashing out. Instead of trying to bury my anger, I found myself hurting for her, with no anger aroused to be dealt with.

Did this help anyone?

I believe it had a chance at helping my wife. When I responded to her with love, it confused her. She found it difficult to maintain her distance. In the end I think it was that breakdown in her barriers to intimacy which induced a panic and led to her fleeing and taking the long sad road to increasingly bitter lies and loneliness. But I believe it could easily have gone the other way. She could have chosen to face her fears. Although she chose otherwise, one thing is certain: my change in approach was effective in moving our relationship from one in which I enabled her to avoid growth to one in which she was forced to make some change.

As for me, I don't think there is any question but that it helped me immensely. What my ex-wife subjected me to during the divorce process was devastating, and if I hadn't already learned to see what was behind her lies and actions, I have no doubt that frustration and anger would have eaten me up. Instead, the greatest pain I experienced during the divorce process was knowing what she was doing to herself, and knowing that I could do nothing to help her. Knowing that the cost to her was far greater than the cost to me completely sapped me of any desire for revenge. And I came out of the divorce far stronger than I had ever been before. Broken, yes, in many ways; but the seeds of healing were already in place in fertile soil.

I will admit that I sometimes laugh at the absurdity of my ex-wife's lies. There is always some truth to the adage that you either laugh about it or cry about it. But while it may be true that an attacker has no right to expect empathy from me, I retain the right to give it anyway. And in the end, I usually feel better within myself when I make that choice. Does it always help them? No, I think not. Sometimes it just causes them to lash out all the more. But I no longer permit myself to take responsibility for their reaction.

I do not fault those who prefer to riposte with a sharp wit, especially in contexts where there is no relationship on the line. This is an effective defense mechanism, and there is always a chance that the shock will be an inducement for the original attacker to see things differently. However, when a discussion has already reached the point where the attacker is in a state which John Gottman calls "flooding," the probability of this is remote.

In the end, we all must make our own choices.

I think that part of the context it makes sense to evaluate in making that choice is the previous behavior of the attacker.

For example, you said that with your ex, responding with love and empathy confused her. With AD on this thread, he initially got empathy for his situation from some posters and a willingness from all to let his hint at a false accusation slide, and in response to that, he *escalated* his behavior.

I see what you're saying, and I understand that on an emotional level your preference is based on your sympathy for AD's suffering. However, I still disagree that empathic listeing would be an appropriate response once he chose to escalate the situation -- he originally got understanding and tolerance, and he chose to spit on it. If someone chooses to make that kind of bed, it's not helping them to enable them not to lie in it.

True, MOS. But at the point where all I feel I can do is repeat myself, my preferred approach is just to walk away.

Yup, and mine is to stand up for those who can't stand up for themselves -- our endless supply of posters in a fragile state that arrive on MB and could be shattered by this kind of attack.

Isn't diversity an interesting thing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

True that. I have no interest in trying to persuade anyone that my approach should also be theirs, but I do sometimes like to try to raise awareness of what others are doing. I believe it's always good to own one's choices rather than make them by unconscious default.

Woohoo, preach it brother. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MOS,

I don't think _AD_lied. He said, "I must admit, my first reaction to your post was to feel as if I had been called a "moron"."

He described a feeling of his, not an action of yours. I don't see how you get from there to him spreading falsehoods.

What lie did he tell, am I missing something here?

T

Yup, keep reading.

Yes,

He went from saying he felt like he was called a moron to saying, "MOS calls me a moron."

I'm not sure I would be willing to call it a lie. Darn feelings <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> I'm sure he "felt" like he was called a moron. That doesn't mean she did.

I think it shows that often feelings are more powerful than facts. If one solely follows their feelings, without also examining the facts, then many misunderstandings occur.

FWIW,

T

I guess a lie requires intent, could have been (initially) a mistake, but AD when confronted did not acknowledge the mistake, so the only rational conclusion is that the misrepresentation was deliberate (albeit motivated by defensive feelings, which will almost always lead one to misbehave), so now it is a "lie".

This is being posted as a "Quick Reply" which refers back to the very last poster, however, I want to make it very clear that this response is directed to others who have participated in the more recent direction that this thread has taken.

I am not taking sides, but I think that going back to the original topic of this thread would be the best manner in which to handle the disagreement which appears to be continuing here.

PLAY NICE.

Well,

Friends (well, of each other at least <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

I'm really really sorry to mess up what had started to be a lighthearted attempt by some fine ladies to do something helpful for the newly D'ed men who might be legitimately participating in this "After D" forum.

Please forgive me, and chalk it up as one more person with a little bit too raw emotions on one particular day.

1) I agree that I inadvertently misrepresented the literal meaning of MOS's post when I said that "she called me a moron". Perhaps I simply read between the lines or looked at (my perception) of an underlying thought. In it's litteral meaning, and in it's implied assertions, MOS's post didn't call anybody anything. Since you can all read what she said, she needs no defending. Her post speaks for itself.

2) I'm still married, and I'm pretty sure I'm getting ahead of myself to even look at this forum.

3) Even if we imagine the passage of 2 months, after which I might be D'ed, I've got a long way to go before I can deal with any of this.

4) I believe it is possible for one to express an objection to the "moron detector" comment without quite so high a likelyhood of offending MOS - and if I was not able to do this, I should have just left it alone.

---------

Now, I'll go back to the boiling kettle of misery over on GQII.

-AD