I would have to say that it depends...

The character of who she is now is way more important to me than mistakes she's made in the past. In a way, it's like asking how many men she's been with. It's history. It's irrelevant, unless, she hasn't grown from the experience. The person I'm interested in is the one I am with today and tomorrow, not the person of yesterday.

Btw, I'm guilty of an online EA back before there was even a www. If this is something she isn't able to get past... If she can't see me for the person I am today, then she isn't the right person for me. And, I wouldn't want to be with her anyway.

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself LL.

Yes, I would.

People DO make dumb, stupid, retarded mistakes. We all do. The BS made mistakes in the marriage as well, sometimes HUGE ones, although it wasn't infidelity. We helped create the marital environment that made an affair possible. How do we convince our potential mates that we're "recovered", that we won't make the same mistakes in the future? The same way they will convince us, through time, honesty, openness, and action. I think the conversations about our pasts, and what we've learned, and then over time - our actions proving our trustworthiness and integrity... these things are most important. Yes - someone's past is important - we need to know about it. Dr. Phil even says it's a predictor of their future behavior. But I believe people can change. (he does too) People can recover. And a different marriage - different marital environment can make a difference.

LL,

I don't think you need worry too much.

Take my answer in context. I am biased. I would want nothing to do with anyone who ever treated anyone the way my W treated me. Call it a trigger if you like. I think I would always be waiting for her to do it just like W did (her A lasted 10 years with multiple false recoveries - with many assurances, over and over, she had learned and changed!)

I am sorry, but I will not put myself in even the most remote possibility of a similar situation. Not ever. Not ever again. Period. I'd rather live alone.

But, there are a lot of other divorced WS's out there. You should not have any trouble at all meeting someone just like you, changes for the better and all.

BTW, there is another side to this coin. I asked W several months after D-Day 2 this same question. I gave her my same answer. Then she said something interesting. She said she would never marry a BH. Too much baggage.

So we BS have the same problem, it seems.

Adultery sucks for everyone, for the rest of their lives, doesn't it?

That's all anyone's going to see if you act like that's all there is to see...if you act like that one fact so changes your nature that you have to hide it to show who you "really" are.

Think about it -- if you go that route, you're acting as though knowing that fact about you should change a person's entire view of who you are.

The "he didn't know me then so he can't see how I'm different now" is an interesting twist on the point I made, but it does't actually address my point. What I said is that you should act as unlike a WS as possible. No one needs to know what you personally were like at that time to be able to assess whether or not you're still displaying some of the destructive behaviors typical of a WS, such as a lack of Radical Honesty.

I'm not saying you need to follow what I would do in this situation, just stating that my opinion is that your best strategy for you, for your own advantage, is to act as unlike a WS as possible, and to avoid at all costs the destructive behaviors typical of them.

NO...NO....NO!!! I would not date or marry a WS. I wouldn't put myself in the position to have what happened to me happen all over again. NO WAY!!!!

Given what I am reading (which is in fact, exactly what I've believed and feared for a long time), I really am thinking that maybe I should just tell this guy and then back away. He is a BS, not a WS, never was a WS and it's doubtful that he can accept a WS. He shouldn't have to.

Problem is, I don't exactly want to just go out and say "Okay, I'm looking for a WS because you're the only person who will accept me."

It's all sort of sickening. But I have started writing my letter to said really awesome guy who I am going to trash this relationship with, most likely very quickly.

LL

LL,
Why are you only paying attention to the "no"s on this thread? That's not the only answer here.

Faith1

and.... why are you assuming that his answer would be a "no"???

I don't understand assuming his answer would be no either.

It's true it could be. It also might not be.

LL, from the tone of your posts, you're feeling a lot of pain and frustration over the concept of this "following you for life". That's true; it does. I honestly think you'll do a lot better in finding the love you want if you learn to make some peace with that within yourself first. There are lots of things that follow us for life -- some of them aren't fair, things that just happened or were done to us. Some of them are fair because they're the result of our own free choices.

I know it's really frustrating to face that feeling of something "following you for life" when you don't feel like it should. But that's how things are, and that is the path you chose. It's time to be making peace with your own path, that you have chosen, before trying to get the rest of the world to be at peace with it.

I doubt I will ever make peace with my own path. I really loathe myself for what I did. It just bothers me that it's something that will never, ever go away.

I do feel frustration, because I want the exact type of person who will never accept me for who I am--I want a Christian husband. If I'd be willing to accept someone who didn't believe so strongly, someone like the guy I was with a few weeks ago (who by the way had no problem with it--it came up in our conversation), it'd be fine.

But I'm not willing to settle for that. Beliefs are too important to me. I want someone who believes the same as I do. Problem is, most Christians are smart enough never to make the mistakes I've made, so they don't have to 'settle' for me.

Again, it just seems over and over like God is telling me through others that I am supposed to remain single for what I've done. My punishment, so to speak.

LL

I know at least Jaye has said this to you...you don't seem to have a lot of faith in God's grace.

You seem to be determined to believe that God's plan for you means punishment.

It may be that it's your path to be single, perhaps forever, perhaps just for now. I'm a bit puzzled that you see that as punishment. God gives us what we need, not what we want -- it might be worth looking at why you're being given this particular gift.

One thought worthy of exploration is that it's a fairly commonly accepted notion on the EN board that a person who can't be happy, fulfilled, and complete on their own will also be completely unable to find happiness, fulfillment, and completion in marriage. Maybe somewhere in there lies the gift you're currently being given.

I do believe that God has forgiven me and that it won't keep me from eternal life in Heaven. I do, however, believe that I deserve in this life to suffer for what I've done, and it would seem to make sense that the best punishment would be the thing I fear most--being alone.

I was happy in my marriage. I may have had one heck of a disfunctional marriage, but I didn't want out of it. I know myself well enough to know that the thing that completes me is to share my life with a partner. It's how I'm wired. I want the companionship, I want the dream of growing old with someone, I want the intimacy, I want someone who shares my dreams and my hopes and who I can talk daily about my faith and my beliefs with. I want a man who can be the spiritual leader that God wants a man to be, and I want to be the supportive Christian wife that God wants a Christian woman to be. I want someone I can pray with, read the bible with, and who I feel I can lean on.

It's just not quite the same with a good same-sex friend.

LL

No. To me - an affair [and all that is involved with having one] is about the worst thing that any human being can do to another and to family & friends. Having been through one - I would not knowingly set myself - or my daughters up for another. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

FR

Ah, ok. Well if you're looking for punishment, you'll surely manage to find it somehow.

The thing is, that would be your doing, not God's.

Hi stranger! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Now that I'm on the dating scene, I'm really liking that this section of MB is now available. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> And of course Jo, thank you for creating one of your usual thought provoking threads. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

To veer back to the original questions you asked: Would I date a FWS? Absolutely! BUT!! (can I make that any bigger? LOL)... only if they can prove themselves as having learned their lessons, which mostly consists of knowing their part in the M that they should have fixed, and taking full responsibility for their actions.

My core belief is that EVERY SINGLE BS on here believes in that too.. that is why we're here to begin with. That is how we learned of MarriageBUILDERS. We beleive deep down that people truly ARE capable of change, and that even a M scorched by infidelity CAN be recovered and rise from the ashes like the phoenix.

So why now, would you doubt your core beliefs in the ability of a person (a WS) to change?

Your next question: Is a BS radar more acute when dating? (or something along those lines <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). Again, I would have to say ABSOLUTELY YES!!!

Part of what we've learned from this fantastic community, is how to better ourselves. Most of that involved creating boundaries, and adhering to them. I personally feel as though I'm the queen of the dating world now that I have so much harley info! LOL!

Back to the question... yup, our radars are way up there, tuning into all sorts of triggers. That was part of our healing paths too, wasn't it? Realizing the "red flags" that were there in our previous M's? I mean, as long as the new date isn't creating any "dealbreakers" (for me for example, b/c of my M, just about any use of porn is a MEGA no-no, and will possibly send me running), then why not just let him prove to you that he's a changed man?

Maybe you can revert back to your Plan A way of thinking, even though it's just for dating. How many red flags are you going to take? IE, how many LB's are you going to be able to deal with before you move to plan B? It varies with each person, as we all know, depending on how they've filled our love banks to begin with.

Jo.. you're an awesome woman. This 'date guy' of yours obviously sees it too. I think you should give him a chance. You should thank him for his openness and frankness about his past, and try POJA to work through it together. If it's gonna work out in the long run, you're gonna have to do that kind of thing anyways, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Karen

Maybe we could go back to branding Scarlet A's, that would make it easier for everyone.

I think this is one of those rhetorical questions that doesn't really hold up when push comes to shove. You never really know what you'll do until you are in the situation.

Would you date a person who was a WS? Well, how are you gonna know what their past was until after you've dated them a few times? So once you've gone out with them, found out their past and decided not to see them anymore -- YOU'VE ALREADY DATED THEM -- so how can you say you'd never date one? Circular logic.

How many of you have said that would be "IT" if your spouse ever cheated on you, and yet you did everything you could to work on your marriage?

You never know until you know, ya know?

OK---

Not to beat a dead horse here, but two points made here bear repeating.

1. Most (I know not all) of the people here and on D&D, GQII and JFO were (some still are) willing to continue a marriage with a WS....many of us worked hard to do that.

2. As Lexxxy points out above---how many here said at one time or another that infidelity would be THE END? Yet in reality it wasn't even close...

I am not saying we all haven't learned anything here...I think we all have.

And If I learned anything at all it's EXACTLY what Lexxxy has said: "You never know until you know." Period.

My best to all

E

No. I would not date a WS if I knew he was a FWS and I would also have to "assume" that he would be up front about this very important issue.I also would not date a former murderer,former child molester,former bank robber,smoker,domestic abuser,drug user.

I realize that a WS is not as bad as a murderer to most people(even though I feel my WH couldn't have placed much more pain in our family by "killing" our marriage and making me feel like I wanted to take my own life at one terrible point)but I personally just would not want to be with someone like that.Yes they may have learned lessons and made ammends but it's bigger than what I would be willing to accept in my life again from another man.

I just feel that there is a history there that cannot be ignored.I would not feel good about being with someone who cheated on their spouse,lesson learned or not.It would always be a sore spot.Sorry,that is just the way *I* feel.I would want someone in my life who has lived a decent and caring life such that I have.Not perfection of course but I don't have room in my life for anyone with a sordid past.I would rather be alone.

O

I think "O" summed it up very well...sordid past. That's what I face each time I meet someone who I think I may have a relationship possibility with. My sordid past. I'm willing to bet that at least half of all people who have been a WS will never disclose it to a new person, mainly because of the very fear I have--that the person will tell them to jump in a lake once they find out.

Would I date someone who was a WS--yes, I would depending on the circumstances. One could argue that I should have left my marrage and not done what I did. Thing is, I didn't intend to do what I did and it wasn't a continued thing (though it did happen 2 times 7 years apart with the same guy, because my boundaries and protections weren't in place). But by the same token, it is very, very difficult to be married to an abusive alcoholic who was frequently not home and who showed me very little attention regardless of how many times I told him I needed it. That left me far more vulnerable than I'd have otherwise been. I begged him, verbally and by many, many letters to be there for him, told him how lonely I was. They fell on deaf ears.

The thing is, I loved him...I was very committed to him, and I wanted my marriage more than anything else. My affair wasn't one of those "Oh, I've found my soulmate--I was never happy with my husband but I can be SO happy with him" things. It was, in both cases, two people who had gone through some really tough stuff who found themselves together alone without boundaries, and who made some really dumb mistakes out of pain and loneliness.

I also have very strict views about what makes a valid reason for divorce, and other than his 20-month affair in the early 90's, after which I opted to take him back, I didn't feel I had a valid reason in God's eyes. So I felt I needed to stay married no matter what the marital situation was.

No, I'd never date a child molester--there's just something wrong there. I'd never date a murderer. Again, something inherently wrong.

There is a history that the other person should be aware of. But I think that history should be taken in context. In addition to being a WS, I have been a BS twice--and they have been two very, very painful, blatant, in-my-face affairs. I wouldn't date someone who had the same types of affairs my ex did (but then again, most people like that would never disclose that to a new person anyway, so I'd never know). But I won't rule out all WS's.

But I would guess that most BS's will rule out someone like me--a WS. Thus, I await being kicked to the curb when I tell the wonderful guy I'm dating when he gets back early next week.

LL

LL, these are exactly the same reasons that I take the extraordinary precaution of never being alone with another woman in a room with the door closed (with the exception of my female medical doctor). Being married to a woman who will deny sex every single time I ask makes me extremely vulnerable.

I believe that her constant refusals are a Biblical reason for divorce, although I will wait for my youngest to get out of HS. However, I am determined to not become sexually involved with a woman outside of marriage.

So I would pose this question to you: Would you or any other of the women around here consider me a possible marriage prospect? And how would I know that a woman would not refuse sex after marriage? Let me tell you, it is not a simple dilemma. (Please be gentle, I tend to be attacked on these boards quite a bit).