Improving, thank you so much for your kind offer. I want to extend the same offer to you in return. I'll answer any questions you might have as clearly and honestly as I can. Maybe we can help each other and even perhaps others in the process. I have so MANY questions I'd like answered.

My wife so far keeps the subject of her affair and her relationship with her partner in adultery as a closed book. Her attitude is that it's over so let's move on. Our personal situation is complicated by the fact that my wife has spent a lifetime distancing herself from her feelings and was raised in a culture where children are taught to keep their mouths shut. She comes from Africa and was a victim of multiple child rape. I don't think that I'll be getting any insights from her any time soon but one thing that has struck me is the similarities that all of our stories share. Maybe you can lend me a flashlight to help me find my own path.

My number one question is How Could You? Did you love me at all? How could you live with me and do what you did and lie about it for so long? How could you look me in the eye? How did you manage to live with me and sleep with him at the same time? I couldn't do that and I so want to understand how you could. Why didn't you just leave and go with him? Why stay involved in TWO inappropriate relationships? What was going through your mind?

Not really a lot of questions but I realize that the answers will be complicated. I have more questions but that one is the biggie. Who knows but that someone will say something that I can apply to my own situation. If anyone has a question for me from my own perspective I'll do my best to stay away from any hand wringing or attempts to describe how absolutely terrible the experience has been for me. There's plenty enough of that here for those who seek such accounts. This thread looks like a good place to learn a thing or two. I'll do my part.

improving, yes i can relate to the majority of what you have written. and when i focus on it all, i can bearly breath, it hurts so much.

i don't know what other advice to give you other than live in today, not yesterday, it is the only way i am surviving.

Something encouraging for all the people on this thread.

Camp, those are very difficult questions to answer that you may NEVER get a satisfying answer to. I know why I ended up having one, I understand what went wrong in me...but to this day I STILL can't believe I did it to my H, I still say - hOW could I...I understand how I got into a self destructive behavior, I understand the contributing factors...but I still sometimes get so disappointed in myself. And I DID love my H, but my actions sure showed i didn't...so trying to tell my H i still loved him during that time was useless, as to be honest - as much as I say I loved him, and I feel I loved him...you wouldn't do things like this to someone you loved.

And being on the BS side of things, I want to ask my H the same questions ESP cause he KNEW what the pain of an affair caused us...but I know those aren't the questions that have answers. I learned that it doesn't matter to me if he loved me or didn't love me then, or how could he do it...what matters to me is what he is doing TODAY and does he love me TODAY. I watch his actions, as I am sure he does mine, everyday...and so far we are flying high....never forget to remind eachother of our love...and are both making changes bit by bit.

I'm noticing a bit of a difference in the way some BS need to recover. Mrs. Wonk isn't as interested in the "why". Rather, she just wants to know that I have remorse for the pain I have caused her - that I have empathy for the pain I have caused her.

However, I have noticed that some of the posters here still need to know "why". Despite understanding how affairs work, unmet emotional needs, etc., they still need to know how we all got here. It's not an insignificant difference. Mrs. Wonk could show me empathy until the day I die but at this moment, it is not what I need. I want to know what inside of my Mrs. Wonk made her take the plunge. What truly allowed her not to stop herself when she had the chance. Yeah, the emotional high feels good, but how could you not stop when you saw me every night? How could you allow yourself to go further when you already come from a family torn apart by an affair?

Now, don't get me wrong. Knowing that Mrs. Wonk feels terrible about the pain she has caused me is important. But as Dr. Harley would say, it is not hitting the mark right now.

For instance, Improving (and I don't mean to pick on you at all <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) you said that you couldn't identify what needs you were missing until you had your affair. My wife has said something similar and damn, how insulting. I never even had the chance. My best friend didn't even give me a chance.

And Dorry:



And I guess this is why it is so frustrating to me and one reason that recovery for me is so difficult. I had my affair because my best friend left me. I am not trying to blame Mrs. Wonk at all. My actions are my own, but I know that I was in such a deep depression from Mrs. Wonk's affair, that I desperately needed to know that I could still be loved. Mrs. Wonk was gone - at least emotionally. Her actions didn't say that she loved me (just as Dorry said in her post). Well, my low self-esteem left me vulnerable to seeking affection elsewhere. Like a big dumb idiot, I succumbed to that pressure. I failed. My lack of self-importance, my lack of self-esteem, my inability to love myself enough to do what was right all led to my affair. It wasn't unmet needs. It was me. I failed myself. Thus, I failed Mrs. Wonk, too.

Mrs. Wonk says it was about unmet needs. Uhm. OK. True. I get that. But WHY did you HAVE an affair?? I hadn't had my SF needs met very much in my entire marriage but I didn't fall victim to an affair for that reason. So, what else is there in Mrs. Wonk that allowed her to do what she did. I need to understand that if I am ever to trust her again. I need that if I am to recover.

Thanks, Suzet. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Dorry, I didn't expect the answers to be simple or definitive. I am simply asking for insights into a mindset that I don't understand. I can only see into my own heart, for anyone else's I have to ask questions. If I get too personal or sound judgemental please set me straight immediately. I am looking for information here and I won't get it by being offensive or prying.

If I love a woman I want to be with that person exclusively and I want her to want the same thing. How do you explain loving a person yet giving the things that the person you love has a right to expect to another person? Speaking personally such behaviour would set up an unbearable conflict in me. It would be written all over my face and I'm sure someone as close to me as my spouse would pick up on it in a heartbeat. In my own case I didn't have a clue as to what my wife was doing. I am not an unobservant man and nothing in her behavior gave her away. How is such a thing possible? I'm not passing judgement, I really want to understand.

Improving, I know that in my situation, Mrs. Wonk was my world. I had a very unhealth perspective on myself and my marriage. I wasn't an individual married to another individual who came together to enjoy a life together. I became part of her. I lived for her. I couldn't even tell you who I am at the moment. So, when she betrayed me - it hurt me to the very core. Not only am I left with the rubble of a marriage, I am left with a rubble of my own self. Because of that, I don't even know how to love Mrs. Wonk again.

Improving, I just take it one day at a time. I have moved past the anger - the pain will always, always be there but the anger must be squashed. I have worked real hard on forgiveness, and have forgiven the lies, etc. that came from the affair. I have even foregiven that she has had SF with OM.

Now, I have to see what is left. I will either love Mrs. Wonk again, and she will love me, or not. If that is the case, at least I know that I looked at everything with open eyes and not behind a wall of anger. Hopefully, if Mrs. Wonk and I can't reclaim our marriage, we will at least be able to parent our children in a spirit of friendship. Time does heal all wounds - what grows in its place is the unknown.

As one who is on both sides of the situation...

Mrs. Wonk had her A and then, not to long thereafter, I began mine. I can assure you that the chemical changes in the brain are so significant, that it is actually quite easy to compartmentalize what is going on. It's not right. It's not right at all. Both Mrs. Wonk and I couldn't compartmentalize completly as it was clear to both of us that something was going on with the other. Yet, there were many months that we each could be at two places at one time, so to speak.

I agree with your needing to understand what makes your wife tick so that she could actually go throug with it. My desire to feel love and affection was so strong at the moment (probably because of the depression that I was experiencing due to Mrs. Wonk's affair) that I did not want to stop my affair. I needed that love. I needed to know that I was still special. I just went about it all the wrong ways and now hurt Mrs. Wonk incredibly. I know how I got there. However, Mrs. Wonk can't quite tell me how she got there. Needs here, needs there, but what inside you made it possible? I wish she would tell me - I do need to know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Does this make sense to you?

Wonk...as much as i personally know about my A, and how I got there, how I became addicted - those questions I can't even answer. I still get so disappointed in myself.

My bio dad left my mom for the OW and that didn't work out - he is on his 3rd wife. My stepdad (who raised me) and my mom - he had an a 8 years ago- they have recovered and are stronger than ever. My grandparents divorced and remarried - my grandma married her OM who has been my grandpa for 29 years now.

I SWORE I would break my families curse - that I would never do something like this...but here I am. The emotional highs were SO high for me that I couldn't let go...it's like an alcoholic who knows it's hurting his family but cares more about his own selfish need....I put myself above everyone and everything else. That's all there is to it. I saw my H everynight - I even INVITED OM and his wife up to our house for a WEEKEND to visit H and I - I did some VERY cruel things..WHY? Because I put ME and only ME first. That was never a good enough answer for Sprint - but it was the ONLY answer I could come up with.

You may not GET answers to those questions...and Wonk - you had an affair too - can you YOURSELF answer those questions without blaming Mrs. Wonk??

Her unmet needs are a definate part of the reason, but what in her made those needs SOOO strong to be met that she would rather them be met by someone else then protect her family - I know in my case it was a depression from a surgery that cause me to go into a self destructive coping mode - where those needs became SO overwhelming...Mrs. Wonk may know too - but ultimately you may never get a satisfying answer.

f you goal is the marriage - then work on eachother's needs while working on your own changes. Like the wise PEPPER said - you can't focus on what your spouse needs to change, only yourself. You may feel she should look into herself and figure thigs out - but you can't control that - work on what you know YOU did wrong, and have faith that the rest will follow.

Improving, it may help you to know that Steve Harley told me that 80% of all marriages some form of adultry. God bless you. It isn't what you've done but what you do that counts.

camp,

My H sprint had the SAME questions and heartache...wanting so hard to understand how I could have done what I did. His only dream was to have someone commit to him and only him...and to be faithful and I shattered that dream...and he couldn't even dream another dream. He spent SO long trying to figure it out - it eventaully was ALL he looked at. he couldn't see the commitment I was making NOW to making the marriage work, he couldn't see the changes I was making - he looked at me and all he could see was A and his definition of commitment.

It got SO bad from his focusing on it - that he started to just want to be able to block ME out. So he avoided me, started working late, started dabbing in singles forums so other people could relate to him.

He met a girl...and within weeks asked me for a seperation - an EA had started. He was UTTERLY convinced that everything was my fault and this girl would NEVER hurt him. After 4 weeks of seperation he realized he was looking at everything the wrong way. That he didn't want to replace me, he loved me...he loved who he was when he was with me - but that because his one dream and his definition of commitment had been broken - he couldn't see what we COULD have - what we DID have.

He realized this and called and confessed...that he had an A. He told me he knew I wouldn't forgive him and he understood if I didn't want to come home and needed time to process things. As painful as it was, as disappointed as I was - I knew that my GOAL had not changed - a HEALTHY marriage long term and I said to him, I do not need to think - if you are GENUINE about wanting to make this work, then I will come home. He was shocked. And he tells me at that minute her realized what commitment meant. It didn't just mean staying faithful, but it meant WORKING through the bad times no matter what was thrown at you - he had said cruel things over 7 months, hurt me deeply, punished me in ways that twisted my heart for my A..but I stayed...even when I wanted to give up - I stayed...because I was re-commited to making this marriage work, I had learned from my mistakes - gotten help - I am still a work in progress. He realized despite what he had done, and the mess we both had made - I was COMMITED. Within days after that he started to not be blinded by my A, anymore and had a new dream - to build a foundation on which we can grow old together...he no longer wants to know HOW i did it, how could I do it...etc - he now just wants to see what we are doing to change it from ever happening again.

We both have bad days, we both have triggers...but we focus on what we are doing today to lay a STRONGER foundation where this can never happen again.

I have the same questions - HOW could he leave me and the kids like he did - HOW could he be willing to abandon the kids for HER? But the truth is - he was...BUT he isn't NOW, and I don't focus on the WHY's of then, I focus on the WHAT ARE WE DONG ABOUT IT now - I won't repeat the same mistakes in my marriage I have made over the past 6 years, and neither will he.

We have been given a second chance at this and we won't blow it!

Wonk,

Once again...even though I have figured out over 8 months that I have a self destructive coping problem...I still cannot answer that question - WHY? Because I was weak? Because all I cared about was me? Because I DESPERATLY needed conversation and support - my biggest ENs? All of the above? There is no easy and clear answer. There is a million answers. I know what got me there...but i still cannot believe I fell...but I did. And all I can do is protect my weakness, change myself, learn NEW coping skills to NEVER put myself in the position to fall again...but what in the end made me cross that line? The only answer I can say is selfishness and that barely covers it...

Yep. I was depressed. My self-esteem, which was low to begin with, was at its lowest point and I wanted so much to feel love from someone. I needed to feel love because it created self-worth. I now realize that self-worth comes from within. I couldn't see that at the time. That's not the fault of Mrs. Wonk. That's my own failing.

Those are reasons Wonk - all things to work on - but WHAT what is that truly made you CROSS the line - that made you say - Okay - this is worth it - I am gonna do it.

Mrs. Wonk is telling you her reasons - her needs desperately needed to be met...but it sounds like you are looking for that PUSH, not for the reasons - the PUSH like what I asked you.

If there are more reasons, then you can't force her to look at them, that will come...all you can do is focus on what you know and make the changes that you need to make...like your Co-dependency, and working on meeting her needs...

HAVE you done the EN list like I suggested???

Wonk - we are TJing...lol if we want to discuss it further lol - lets start our own thread!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Improving, sounds like you touched a lot of people with your thread. Dorry and I will return it to you for your comments. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

If this subject is getting old, I apologize.

I just had to get something off my chest, though.

When I look back to an ex-girlfriend that cheated numerous times (with some very strong consequences), I tried so hard to understand why she would continually do this to me over and over again. It finally occured to me, after many long months, that it was because I was letting her. I was enabling her to cheat because I kept taking her back.

I think there are two kinds of cheaters:

Serial cheaters and those of us who have made a serious mistake, but probably won't do it again.........ever, no matter what the circumstances.

The serial cheaters don't wan't to understand and probably don't care. They will cheat no matter how good or bad they have got it in their primary relationship. If they cheat on you more than once, there is no hope, IMHO.

But for those who make the mistake and then have remorse about it, I think there is lots of hope. As to why someone cheats, there must be a thousand excuses, but no real reasons. I think the common theme is that we think that someone else has the answer to our pain, whatever that pain may be. Sadly though, no one else has that answer. You are the only one who can cure your own pain. You and possibly your wonderful spouse who can help you, but ultimately, the answer to "Why am I so damn miserable?" can only be found within yourself, not the attractive other person who "seems" so perfect.

I hope someone can get something from these ramblings.
Thanks for listening. I admire all of the folks on this site so much!

Have a happy Friday.

The "Why?" still haunts me even though I am not in recovery nor do I intend to enter into recovery. It haunts me because I think of all the good that we shared and good things we had and the promises we had made, and I wonder why would you ever give up so easily? And if you did want out, why do it this way?

I don't think I'll ever get the answer to "Why?" from my WW either. I don't think she knows.

But I have my own theory...

When I first met WW she was a very selfless person. She always thought about other first and quite often put them in front of her own needs. In fact this is one of the things that attracted me to her, was her utter selflessness. Unfortunately she also allowed some people to walk over her and take advantage of her.

She eventually reached a point where she got fed up and decided to live for herself and only for herself. And she became extremely selfish. I of course resisted as I saw our family always taking a backseat to her selfish activities. This put a large strain on our marriage.

I think the selfishness coupled with her depression, and her "decision by what feels good" type of attitude led her to the A. A year later I honestly now believe it had very little to do with me and our marriage.

When the A occured, however, I thought it was ALL about me. Now I think my contribution to the devestation was underestimating the internal struggle she was going through and not seeking outside help earlier. Granted she wasn't very good at sharing her internal struggles but I thought she was stronger than she was.

Unfortunately the A destroyed everything we had. I can barely talk to her, and cannot look at her without disgust. I do not know how I could have any relationship with her.

I applaud those who can look past the A and work on their marriage as I know I will never be able to do that. The gash left by the A was much too deep wound. Without the A we would have had a large struggle to recover, but with it I saw it as impossibility.

Miker