I have followed your stuff since you started posting months ago.

Of course, we only have your side of the story, but I don't see any reason to doubt events are fairly close to your explanation.

I suspect you need to get tough. "Tough Love" as it were. The dynamic between the two of you won't change, until the dynamics between the two of you change.

She has no incentive to change. You have every incentive to change the relationship. Hopefully to the better, but more importantly to preserve your own health and welfare. Something which originally should be a priority to her, but in some distorted way, has not.

I think you have gone beyond the call of duty in attempting to be understanding and careful, and so on.

However, be cautious in writing off the "Depression" issue. Clinically depressed doens't mean that a person walks around moping all the time or constantly on the verge of tears. In othe rwords, it's not depression in the sense if "I'm depressed".

And some ofyour W's behavior does sound like moderate depression. Self-defeating actions in the context of other behaviors can be part of it.

It doesn't mean she gets a blank check to act how she wants to act, w/o having to face consequences.

Are you sure that your W see the "strength" of your marriage in the same glowing terms that you do? Because based on your description, it doesn't appear that way...

E

well i'm new to this forum but it sounds like you both have issues and I suggest you actually see a counselor!!
Good Luck!

Whoops!

I just read this thread..... a few random thoughts.

1. Why does your wife need to steal "time for herself" in the late evenings when she's not working? She has all day for time to herself.

2. In reality, she's not tired because she's slept all day.

3. You need to relocate to another room and get the sleep you need.

Yup, I've thought about those things too...sometimes I'll come home after being gone for 10hrs, and she'll act like I'm "bothering her," like she "needs space."

Well, I think her oversleeping has to do with vitamin/mineral/enzyme/emotional/organ imbalance. Something that just about everyone in the US, and I guess across the globe, may have. Her body isn't functioning "correctly" for a number of reasons, which makes her feel tired, so she sleeps...she doesn't feel rested, so she sleeps more...thereby, she doesn't really eat regularly, which makes her tired...it becomes a feedback loop, which, as I undersand it, is what many illnesses actually are.

Rereading the threads here is very helpful to me. My marriage has improved over the last few months. Today was a bad day. We learned some "listening skills," in counseling and my wife is applying them, but today was strange. The listening skills involve us summarizing the other's statements before moving on.

A few times, we've really gotten somewhere when we apply the technique. She's really been able to hear some of my deepest issues regarding her treatment of me in these "early years" of marriage...it's a start.

But today, she basically flipped. She tried to summarize some of the things I was saying, and she got frustrated and gave up. That's been one of the biggest problems in our "new communication." Often, if what I'm saying isn't "plainly" packaged, then she gets overwhelmed and frustrated. When she doesn't understand, she can get viscious...and then I can't share anything anymore.

I never thought that I'd need to "negotiate behavior," which to me, sounds like something only someone in a really bad marriage would need to do. You only need to "negotiate behavior" if your partner is so callously distant from you, that the "feelings of the other" basically don't matter. But that's how I feel. I feel that my thoughts/feelings/preferences/desires don't matter to my wife.

Going into a cycle of "negotiating behavior" would basically mean, in a way that I'd have to admit to being in a crappy marriage...or that my wife does not seem to have my best interests at heart.

Best,
D--

Boy, we were on an upswing, and I came home today...my wife is planning a party for me. She had been home all day. She was very unfriendly, she started calling me names. In a way, she picked a fight...she hadn't done much to pick up the apartment, and I know that she can't get the place ready for the party. I was a bit surprised, since yesterday at lunch she told me not to worry about things "I have ALL DAY tomorrow, this is YOUR party..."

You know, I feel like I can't say anything at all without my wife assuming that I'm insulting her. For goodness sake, she hadn't picked up the apartment. She was sitting there, working on a curtain...all angry and scowling.

Had she said something like "hey there, how was your day? You know, I didn't get a chance to clean as much as I'd hoped because I was working on something else, do you think you could xyz?"

Instead, I was trying to find out why she seemed so upset. She said she hadn't been outside all day. OK, I understand that. She started talking about all the work that she had done...and it looked like about 45 minutes of "work." So, I didn't understand. I also didn't understand what was making her so upset. She started saying that I was bothering her.

When I said that it didn't look like she had done that much work, she started yelling at me and calling me names. I tried to find out what was bothering her. I really did what I could to not get sucked into her attacks.

She negates the things that I say. She assumes she knows my intentions. It's funny, because I'm totally willing to pick up a mop and clean and carry and do and lift and whatever...I'm just not willing to be yelled at.

Then she said SHE felt used and abused.

It was incredible. I asked her to explain herself. She said I made that pillow over there and it took a lot of time. OK! She covered the pillow in some cloth napkins. Frankly, it doesn't look very good, but I didn't say anything. I don't know why she would have spent so much time doing something unnecessary when there are basic cleaning things to do before the party...also, I have to work before the party, so I won't be around to help.

I can appreciate that she put her effort into covering the pillow, I just can't continue to be yelled at. I mean, she was scowling when I came home.

What am I supposed to do? Come home and heap praise on her for every single finger movement she might have done? The way our marriage works is that things she touches, she leaves dirty...I leave them for a few days for her to take care of...when I remind her, she says I'm complaining...then some kind of party or guest or event comes around and she does the cooking and I clean everything up. It's not fair.

Also, I clean up after the party.

She won't maintain a basic regimen of taking care of the aparmtment...

goodness...

Anyway, she just wouldn't listen to anything I was saying, she wouldn't let me express my intentions (which were good), she was calling me a lot of names, and she was cornering me into opinions I don't have. After about 90 minutes, I lost it.

I smashed some bananas on the floor and emptied the garbage onto them. Then I poured some juice onto the floor. I said "that's what you're doing to us, that's our marriage...smash smash smash." More like smush smush smush. Then I slipped and fell without hurting myself. Then I started cleaning everything up.

The miracle is that after such idiotic expressions of emotion, my wife tends to listen attentively. I don't get it, but it happens.

I explained to her that I felt like my "intentions" were the bananas, and that they were nice. I told her that she smashed every thought, every intention, every thing that I tried to say...and well, she understood.

In the end, she was able to summarize how she acted and even said "you came home and I called you a lot of names, that wasn't very nice."

I'm glad that she came to her senses...but the apartment is messy, it's late, I have to work tomorrow, and there's a party. Financially, we shouldn't be throwing this party, and my wife wants to "hide" our bedroom.

My office is "one side" of our bedroom. I can't "hide" the bedroom from our guests. The bedroom actually needs to be picked up. It can't be a disaster area. She got really mad when I said that. She said "I don't need to show everyone in the world my bedroom." Well, I don't like to be ashamed of myself or my lifestyle. Also, certain guests will be interested in some of the things I'm working on...so the office will need to be accessible. I think she just wants to make a big pile of crap in our bedroom...also she thinks it will take 20 minutes.

This is so tiring and childish. I've lost quite a bit of energy to this. We're trying to work out absolute total basics like going to sleep and cleaning.

I might have written this before, but I told my wife that I consider the way she treats my need to get to sleep as physical abuse. There is no other way to describe it. I feel abused by her behavior regarding bed time. She just won't let me go to sleep when I want and need to. We've tried to work things out, but she always acts like I'm being impatient when I want to go to sleep.

Can a man be tired? Why am I being impatient by going to bed? Why am I complaining if I don't like it that she makes noise when I'm trying to fall asleep? Yes, that's gotten better. She'll sometimes get her things out of the bedroom and get herself ready outside of the bedroom and then come in quietly without turning the light on...but not always.

Folks, I'm really really getting tired in this marriage. Without her yelling at me, our apartment would be clean, and I'd be relaxing before a big day tomorrow. Now, I'm on this forum, and she's out.

I cleaned everything up that I put/threw on the floor. I just don't know what to do. She's still not really working. We had a financial agreement. Today, she said that she expected more out of me and that I'm not earning enough.

Had she been able to keep a part time job...even at under $1000/month...we'd have been able to put away...save...quite a bit of money in the last few years. Is $1000/month too much to ask? We had agreed on that amount. I relied on it. I relied on her.

We tried to meet for lunch this week. She came 30 minutes late. Interestingly, when she showed up, I was going to leave "in 45 seconds." I looked at my watch and figured I'd just leave at exactly 30 minutes past the hour.

She's not happy with her career, but she won't do anything about it. I've helped her, and I'm very good at helping, but when she needs to do a task, she doesn't do it.

She was supposed to manage our 2005 financial folder. I left the issue completely alone the whole year. She yells at me for reminding her...so on the financial folder, I didn't say a thing. Well...it's well past tax time...is the folder done? No. OK, well, I'll be doing the taxes late then...

So, again, I'm going to pick up and do something she should have done...which will make her feel stepped on and weak...but for goodness sakes, I have to do the taxes.

For tasks relating to her career, I've made her resume, business cards, website, made calls on her behalf, etc. etc. etc. Every time I help, things move forward...she needs to do a task...things halt.

The "negotiating behavior" thing seems to be helping...but I can't take what this is doing to me. I feel like I'm becoming "the kind of person who throws things on the floor and stomps on them." It's what I did today. I did that. I just can't take being yelled at...so I'm rambling...rambling into this forum.

I'm starting not to be able to believe that this is my life. I'm starting to yell back. I think the neighbors have noticed. When we've been to counseling, it has really helped, I'm just starting to get scared...scared that our marriage is beyond repair, scared that she would treat our potential children the way she treats me. Scared that I'll be much much much less than I could be in life due to marital strife. Scared that we'll just get divorced in a number of years anyway, so why not just do it now.

Is it heartless to get divorced? I mean, I think she actually means well. I really think that she loves me or "feels" that she loves me very very deeply. It's true that many of her actions don't reflect love...but many of her actions do indicate love. I just haven't really mentioned them here.

I feel like if I get a divorce, it would be like saying "oops, you're defective, I need a new one." Great packaging...great sales process...didn't see the flaws in the product. That's terrible!

But it's challinging to maintain sympathy for her "going through a hard time." It's challenging to watch her do so little for herself. It's also very challenging to maintain the public facade that we maintain...the facade of the happy successful couple.

When I try to help, she feels "pressured," and she yells. When I let up, she does nothing.

One thing she'll do, she'll cook. She won't clean up after herself, but she will cook. She cooks with love. Another thing she will do is put little decorations around the apartment. She won't clean the apartment, she'll pile big books on top of little books, she'll leave empty toilet paper rolls on the bathroom floor...but she'll put little decorations up.

So, that's what I've got to go on. Cooking and little decorations.

She can be generous physically.

I don't feel like I have much to go on, and after a fight like tonight's I'm starting to lose hope in our future together. The fight ended in understanding and in peace, which I guess is a good indicator...but this kind of energy-robbing fighting can't continue.

If you do such a thing, please pray for us. If not, please think happy thoughts for our marriage. Think "those guys can make it." Please...I know it's possible for us to have a great marriage...something is just blocking us/her. She's somehow blocked by the abuse she experienced in her childhood. She doesn't need to bring that baggage into her future...

Goodness!
D--
D--

My wife keeps breaking promises, and she keeps yelling at me. When I ask her why she's yelling at me, she gives non-specific, mean-spirited replies.

Thoughts of divorce feel really good right now. I imagine everything in my life coming together...career, business, school, clean apartment, health, exercise, going to things on time, sticking to a budget, etc. etc.

Best,
D--

D--

Hope you're still reading. You have a marriage without boundaries...a lot of projection and disrespect...and you're doing a lot of those things.

You only can control you...learn about boundaries around yourself, enforcing them, and respecting yourself and your wife.

Read the books, do the counseling and learn all you can about yourself and what you believe relationships are...

Divorce is a fantasy in your head you're using right now to self-comfort...it is destructive and dangerous to you...if you do choose to divorce, you will repeat this until you do your own work...I promise.

And you are capable, whole and complete...nothing defective about you. Know this...know what your standards are and your boundaries. Then you'll know that asking "why are you yelling at me" is full of self-betrayal and how much pain you are causing yourself, believing it to be coming from your wife.

LA

Dear LovingAnyway,

I sense the truth in your words.

I've now found out more about my wife's abusive upbringing, and I didn't know it was as bad as it was. I feel that she, like a vacuum cleaner or a high powered magnet, simply attracted or "sucked up" every negative aspect of her past and forced it into our relationship.

Something I didn't really expect, is that my wife actually feels that way too. She recently visited with her parents and was able to see just how sick the environment is.

I'm curious what you mean by my "projecting," and I'm even more curious what you mean by my "disrespecting" my wife.

I feel that I know my boundaries, yet I leave them available for people to cross. When they do so, in general, without doing anything, they wind up drifting out of my life. It's been an open and wonderful way of attracting the greatest of friends...but also attracting just "folks." All kinds of people. I tend to bring out the best in people, so I don't really look at "who" the person is, I look at what they are when they are with me. What I mean by bringing out the best in people, is that people tend to be friendly to me and to each other when I'm around.

So, in my marriage, I figured I'd leave my doors open. Instead of bringing about a peaceful state of creative love, as it has in my friendships, it led to a lot of abuse, from my perspective.

I don't think it's "right" of me to "close the door" on my wife.

Regarding standards. I make and keep promises. My wife hasn't exhibited the same habit. Is it because my "doors" are open? But what am I supposed to do? In a marriage, we should be loving, open, and vulnerable.

You can't shield and be vulnerable at the same time. But if you are vulnerable, and your wife injures and stabs and cuts and bruises, it makes you want to shield...even in your marriage...which in my book is the last place one should have to shield.

"Then you'll know that asking "why are you yelling at me" is full of self-betrayal and how much pain you are causing yourself, believing it to be coming from your wife."

Even when it is unprovoked? When the words on your lips are "Honey, what would you like for breakfast?" and before you even utter "H" you meet with "WHAT??!?>!"

These were patterns from my wife's past. I also think it's important to know what and who is being reflected.

"why are you yelling at me" being full of self-betrayal leads to "you create your own reality." I've done quite a bit of work in that area, and I have successes in many areas of my life. I've even "created" little gifts for my wife.

Are you saying that we, as individuals are 100% responsible for how others treat us?

Interestingly, I have no problems with strangers. Few problems with friends. Some problems with my immediate family. A lot of problems with my wife.

When my wife was a friend, a fiance, she held her wounds to herself. We got along well. In marriage, her wounds broke open and she attacked me and enveloped me with her pain. That realization has been the result of counseling.

It's likely that I have contributed to the problem, but I feel it's important that I continue my "open door" policy. My wife can decide not to abuse me. If I have to "defend myself" in my own marriage, then is that a marriage?

I'd really appreciate it, if you/we could discuss how
"why are you yelling at me" is full of self-betrayal.

Best,
D--

I can't believe I'm still married. My wife was away for a few weeks visiting her family. For me, it was a time of great relief, I could clean up our place, get places on time, not hurry, not be subjected to yelling or criticism...it was very pleasant and productive, albeit a bit lonely.

We just had a really bad fight. She's only been back for few days.

She keeps insulting what I'm doing, how I'm doing it, when I'm doing it, how I'm standing, my tone of voice, but she won't look at the fact that I'm...for example, the catalyst of our argument today...just standing around waiting for her! I'm not doing anything wrong, I'm not saying anything I'm not doing anything...she just attacks me. She was late, OK, big deal, does she have to yell at me for standing around and waiting? She tells me I could do something while waiting...well, I did do "something," I washed the dishes (most of which were "hers"). Then I walked into the room where she was putting on her makeup. Then I get attacked again. If she wants to be "left alone," then she shouldn't shout and insult and call me names and criticize me. Also, what on earth is wrong with being pleasant? I don't "have" to be in the same room as her while she's putting on her makeup, I'm just walking around our place. If I happen to be in the same room, I might ask when she'll be ready, which is like asking for a bomb to explode, so I might try to just converse with her, or, if she sighs, then I might want to find out whats wrong and see if I can help her.

She just yelled and started crying and stormed out of the house.

I ask for your prayers.

D--

When your wife insults you...there is two parts. The actual words and your perception. You can only control your perception.

To get a grip on this, my power, I had to put a hopper on my head...okay, it's symbolic...still the very image of what was a large, metallic strainer balanced on my head helped me deal with conflict.

When your wife said you could do something instead of just standing around...listen and repeat.

"I hear you saying that I could do something while I'm waiting for you."

"Yes."

"Do you mean for the entire time or for part of it?"

I don't know what she might say here.

"Part of the time I spent doing the dishes. I felt good about choosing to do that, though I resented that most of them were yours. Then I went in to be with you while you did your makeup. I enjoy your presence, love to watch you move. I felt attacked when you said you wanted to be left alone. I felt rejected."

Then I believe you might hear her stuff...(and yes, I'm very much making this up to widen your perception)...

"When you wait on me I hear my mother's voice telling me I'm a lazy girl. I'm bad and I ruin everything. The pressure builds in me...that I am MAKING you wait. My relief comes in thinking of you not waiting, but doing. And when you came into the bedroom, I felt you were hurrying me, those same words in my head, I was hearing them in your voice."

Real dialogue...validating real feelings...no approval, no shoulds, no tit for tat...pure communication.

When she shouts, "I feel you are beating me by shouting. I am full of anxiety and I can't hear your words. If you continue, I'll have to leave the room until I can hear you."

That's a progressive boundary enforcement...predetermined. "I hear you insulting me...I take that you wanting to be left alone to mean that I'm bad for wanting to be around you."

Get to what you really think and feel and own it...state it in "I" statements..."I believe" "I feel" "I think"...if you find yourself saying, "You make me feel like crap" then know you're not owning you feel like crap...not getting to your own truth.

"When you call me names, (and give an example), you are defining me and that's abusive. Stop."

Does it again, "You are choosing to be abusive. I will not be around you when you do that. I will resume this conversation in two hours."

Calm, true to yourself and your boundary.

Will you consider, "Can I help you?" to also convey, "You need helping" when she sighs?

"What are you feeling right now?" Or given the volatility of your relationship right now, "I am wondering what you're feeling right now." Sighs come in a thousand forms...they really do. Find out what makes you sigh...your different kinds.

Focus on you...your boundary enforcements. Respectful, real and honorable. They are.

Predetermined is key. Like the breakfast scenario. "I heard you shout "What?!", interrupting me. I feel anger and frustration." Leave the room for two minutes. Re-enter and continue with what you were doing. In that two minutes, take deep breaths, clear your mind and know you are doing great self-care, being respectful to self and your wife.

You are in Phase II of marriage...the toughest part...the intimate part...where your wife is showing her true self, her wounds, scars and weaknesses. So are you. Know this as the middle part of getting to Phase III...mature love. Worth everything, in my opinion. This is the most difficult stage of love; you're in the labor pains of birthing real intimacy.

LA

Dear LA,

Thank you for your in-depth response. Right now, my wife is in what I would call a "negative space." I'm having a great time working on a new product I will be putting out soon, and I am 100% sure it will be a great success. I am really starting to enjoy my work, my opportunities, and the people I attract and maintain relationships with.

My wife, when she feels a symptom of some kind, immediately starts searching for some "label" regarding her symptoms. She goes to the point of diagnosing herself and talking as if she had some disease. A few years ago, I would run around and get every expensive medication or curative formula we could even vaguely afford...she needed this, she needed that. She was at home, I had/have a real chronic illness, but I was running around buying stuff for her on credit.

Anyway, at least I'm not running around the city buying stuff.

It's annoying when my wife chooses a route that damages her. It's a simple realization that moving towards health resolves medical issues. We have several books on the subject. Towards health beats away from disease every time.

She is very concerned about her weight. She was yelled at and called skinny by her mother. Yet she'll sleep in (10-11 hours), she won't eat breakfast, and she doesn't exercise.

So, I have today to work on my product. I went out to take a break, and she used the PC for a while. I come back, and she has several pages regarding a particular disease in front of her.

Now, I truly wish for her to stop wishing these kinds of things onto herself. I also wish to have support for my personal healing process. I also wish for my wife to start complimenting my healing process.

While my wife was away visting her family, I was able to make significant strides towards reactivating positive friendships, exercising, working, earning, getting rest, eating good food, even finding a few new folks to spend time with.

My wife made real progress while she visited her family. She seems much more relaxed, and she is much less prone to just snap and scoff. That's great. She saw what her family is like, she sees that she projects her family situation into our marriage, and she does not want to bring such chaos and abuse into our lives.

But, when I see her staring at all these disease descriptions, I just don't know what to do. She's been to several doctors who all give her a clean bill of health. Many have told her to look into the emotional side of things. Also, it's just cryingly obvious that if you sleep 11 hrs per night, don't eat breakfast, and don't exercise, and spend a lot of time anxious...well, you might not be the heaviest of people.

I wish to have the kind of relationship where my wife can accept that we are one and can accept my loving advice. I also wish to receive and accept the loving advice of a kind partner. I probably need it. For example, I work very very hard and tend to not take breaks. It would be nice to have an external, balancing partner, who looks out for my best interests. Well, I do that for my wife. I wish to look out for her best interests, it's just that it seems to be leading to my having a very expensive, often quite mean, puffy, pretty...pet.

I wish for her to see that her actions and inactions are creating her physique. Also, she has an incredibly hard time accepting how beautiful she is. Literally, she is in her late thirties and people think she's in her mid twenties. She was a model and could still be one...even without exercise.

Of course, it would be better if she did exercise. She'd also feel better about herself. It would be better if she slept up to 8 hrs and then got out of bed. She'd feel better. She wouldn't be so grumpy.

So, I guess, I see solutions. Solutions I wish she would take up eagerly and readily. I'm like that. So maybe that's an unfair comparison. If I get good advice...goodness...I'm so happy! Now, control, coercion, force...these are unpleasant, and every person resists being controled.

So, there it is again. My wife's controlling, abusive upbringing created a situation where my wife can't accept a more positive route. And it's not just a more positive route "for me," it's just simply more positive to eat good food, breathe well, sleep rhythmically, exercise well, and be happy...than to live a lifestyle that attracts illness.

So, frankly, I want my life to stop it. I want her to choose a lifestyle that attracts joy and abundance. I also want her to come along on "my ride," meaning that I want her to supplement and augment and facilitate my adventure in life.

Yes, I have the image of being abundant and joyous and happy together. Is that wrong? Can't I point out when my wife exhibits behaviors that conflict with her/my/our image?

We've worked on expressing our desires for our marriage, and those conversations are great. Unfortunately, I generally keep my promises, and my wife, up to now, hasn't. I'm not going to say that she can't or won't, it's just important to note that we'll have these moving, loving, healing conversations, and then, basically, she won't put her words into action, and I will.

I am entering into a phase where I am starting to be more influential in my career. I feel held back by my wife's negativity. Sometimes I have to really meditate to fix my mood, and only then can I "face" the world. I wish for my wife to be a joyous supplement to my mood. Other people gather worries in the outside world and come home to solace. For me, right now, it's been the opposite. But the worry at home leaked into my exterior environment. It leaked into my finances, my health, my friendships.

I'd like my home to be a place of relaxed refuge, of peace, joy, and tranquility. I invite my wife to cooperate.

The problem is that she doesn't "have" to cooperate, and yes, likely, divorce is a fantasy, because I just don't think I'm going to do that. Does my wife know it? Is she using me? Is she using my dedication to our marriage as an excuse to be as negative as she can be, just to see if our marriage will break?

Regarding shouting. Most of the time, I'm not the one shouting. She shouts. Then, I try softly to have a normal dialogue. Often, it happens when I try to address a normal household issue. Something like dishes, clothes scattered around the living room, dirty kitchen floor. I'll try to ask for a process that would work for both of us, so that we can enjoy our physical space. The reaction is SNAP SNAP, INSULT, YELL! I try again softly. That cycle repeats until I start raising my voice. The worst part of the cycle is that my wife used to ONLY listen when I was yelling like an absolute maniac, when I was so infuriated that I could barely control myself (which is how her mother acted every day of her life...how her mother still acts today).

That's where the magnetic force of her abusive past comes into play. I don't want to act that way, but she basically won't converse with me unless I act that way. She'll stab, jab, insult, call me names, ignore, stomp around...until I fit into her mold.

Just now, when she was using the PC, I guess I said something that could have been perceived as annoying. She was reading about a specific disease, and I said "Oh, wouldn't it be better to move towards health?" She got very defensive. She also got mad and left the room.

Usually I would follow her, and we would have a long long discussion...no matter how much work I might have to do that day. I would try to say "hey, I'm not tyring to be mean, it's just there are alternatives to insisting on illness," she would react, walk away...and, in my opinion, assume that I have negative or controlling intentions...which I don't. She could easily say something like "I feel caged when you say that I'm insisting on illness, I'm just doing the best I can with my awareness of my body." Hey, that would be great, I could work with that, but she just stonewalls and namecalls.

So, in a way, it helps for me to think of my wife as an addict. She's addicted to a negative cycle of behavior that leads to an obvious result. The driving forces of the negative cylce, from my perspective, seem to be worry, fear, concern, voices from her past, and ingrained patterns.

I wish to have an open relationship. One in which also my "patterns from the past" could be addressed and discussed. I really don't have any problem improving as a person. I also do everything I can to do things in such a way as to please my wife. I truly wish for her to act the same way. I am open to feedback...I wish for her to be as well. I am open to dialog...I wish for her to be as well.

We can design a magnificent life together, but in order to do that, both of us need to be willing participants. I'm willing. I write lists, read books, talk, seek counseling, etc. I also "leave room" for my wife to assist. But up to now, she has dropped the ball almost every time. She was supposed to make an appointment for counseling. We were in an OK space, but things were declining...she didn't make the appointment...I gently reminded. Nothing happened. Basically, she just neglected to do "her part."

Things were getting really bad and instead of allowing our marriage to collapse. I did it. I made the appointment. I sought out help.

Now is that fair? What about her? What about her energies contributing to the health of our marriage?

It's the same pattern she exhibited as a child, with her mother controlling everything she did. Also, it's the same pattern where my wife leaves everything to the last minute to the point where the people around her who wish to help her are driven into a frenzy of almost impossible activity!

I wish for our marriage to come into a phase of joy and tranquility. I also wish to be supported. I don't think it's fair for me to need to be Mr. Perfect, Mr. Everything (maid, dishwasher, floor cleaner, money-earner, health-fixer, etc), while my wife just drains and drains and drains my energies and efforts, while she just does less and less and less, just because I am able to do more.

So, this time, I let her be negative, and she left the room. I don't like it. I don't like having people who are anxious around me...I generally step in and say something soothing. But OK, not this time. She left the room, she's concerned over some illness, and I'm writing in this forum, instead of consoling her.

Now, back to work,
D--

Okay, so you decided not to share your boundaries and boundary enforcements with me, huh?

You are uncomfortable being around people who feel anxious. You usually combat your discomfort by stepping in and saying something soothing...to modify or change their feelings which are not your own.

Would you consider that respectful? When you feel anger because someone slapped you in the face and walked out, do you want someone to hold you, telling you it's not so bad, don't be angry, they are the bad guy?

Would this be controlling of you? Of the other person consoling you? Would this be respectful of what is only yours and no other's domain?

I'm curious because I see key words like "fair" "dropping the ball" "drains and drains and drains" and you feel annoyance when your wife damages herself. And I see full focus on her, not you, your parents, your FOO (family of origin) and what you were taught was controlling and what wasn't...what was respectful and what wasn't...and what love was...and what you believe now.

Not uncommon for a human to want a diagnosis for their life...to find something they can have through no fault of their own when they are steeped in blame, inside and out.

You can't diagnose them, fix them and cure them...even when they beg you to--you have no power. Enabling is not an act of love...it is conflict avoidance. Self-betrayal and serving a false self image, not self.

And as I learned very late in life...people aren't problems...people have them.

Fixing people is abusive...

You're here, DM...you aren't being told you're the problem...you can't be...I am sharing my beliefs, what changed everything in my life...which was understanding, acknowledging and owning my true self...and how changing me truly does change everything.

If you want to get through Phase II to Phase III...mature love...there's a lot of stuff to realize, habits to change, perspectives to choose and perceptions to doubt...all of them are your own. You have the power (are you too old for He-Man?)...you really do.

All humans do. You're human. You are whole, complete and marvelously made...separate and equal to every other human on the planet. That includes your wife.

Why they call it partners...each with their part.

When you over-function...overdo in the partnership, then there is only room for your partner to under-do.

I hope you'll keep posting...you're honest and I believe, questing. You're not alone. Your desire to address your own patterns from the past (I really like that phrasing)...is a matter of you doing so and sharing what you're doing, how it's going, what you realize, in essence, your "self" with your partner. That is choosing to be intimate...not based on possible or probably response.

Please tell me your boundaries...how you define abuse...what you do not allow yourself to do to others (your standards) are the same for your boundaries, usually.

In your corner,

LA

Abuse:
Yelling at someone. Calling them names. Not understanding them before negating them. Negating. Ignoring. Interrupting in a power-conflict kind of way (interjecting in a joyous, lively conversation is OK). Defining another person's thoughts/feelings for them and then accusing them of having those thoughts/feelings.

Crossing of boundaries:
Careless, reckless, or damaging behavior.
Disrespect of time
Linked behavior (only goes to bed after me, gets out of the car after me, does make-up only after I'm waiting, etc.)
Making and breaking promises big and small
Ignoring and diverting
Not responding until the people around you are at emotional extremes
Refusing loving interdependence. Refusing to plan. Refusing to discuss.
Dis-abling behaviors (not letting me go to sleep, talking to me while I'm working, on the toilet, on the phone and doing so in a way that causes me to put her first and not my own needs at the time)
Every day is not lazy-Sunday
Equating anger and strength
Mistaking desires for demands
Ignoring what might have caused my irritation, and just blaming me for being in a bad mood. Isn't it possible to discuss the reasons why I might be upset about something? Don't I get to be upset about a thing or two without my wife going nuts? She gets to point, criticize, point criticize and ignore herself, her own behavior, her own responsibility for the things she's criticizing?
Criticizing me when I laugh, criticizing me when I'm upset, etc. No emotions allowed...especially not strong ones!
Not understanding my wants needs and desires.
Not letting me finish my sentences.
Willingness to leave the other in pain (walking out during an argument, ignoring, not seeking to understand me). Prolonging discussions by ignoring key points.

Annoying habits:
Inability to layer tasks effectively
No planning, just ineffective doing
Not cooperating with others with regard to her career.
Simply being angry a lot.
Saying the kind of things that can ruin a whole day.
Leaving budgets in the realm of the "theoretical," and then wanting everything without doing the appropriate actions to have those things.
Not accepting that we've created our reality.

Many of the above are formulated as "things wrong with her." I don't like that. They should be "boundaries." Or, ideally, the opposites would turn into our marriage vision.

Best,
D--

Boundaries are around us, not them...from your post, these are what I see as your boundaries:

What you will not do and what you will do because this is who you really are...Not as a manipulation to get others to change or in an attempted to control how you are treated...

You will choose not to

Name-call
Yell or shout (use a violent voice in volume or tone)
DJ
Attempt to make your beliefs their beliefs
Attempt to make your feelings felt by others
Attempt to make your perception their perception
Attempt to make your thoughts their thoughts
Withdraw (Ignore, not respond, tune out, not be present)
Interrupt (blocks listen and repeat)
Define others...tell them who they are
Break promises, nor promise that which you will not do
Choose to perceive statements of desires as demands
Hold others to your own standards
Perceive opinions as criticism
Create resentment in yourself
Make another person responsible for what is inherently yours
Take responsibility for what cannot be your responsibility
Believe others make you feel, think or believe anything you do not choose to feel, think or believe
Live in fantasy.
Act out passive aggressively


You will choose to

Respect others by Listen and repeat (Acknowledge, Validate)
Accept yourself and the reality you've created
Own your life...using "I" statements to share who you are
Honor you are half the marriage, a whole person, in a union of two humans
Share who you are not dependent on response (even nonresponse) because you believe in knowing and being known
You will respect others have their own standards and boundaries
Enforce your boundaries around yourself and your marriage
Call your wife on her passive aggressive behavior
Know and accept reality.
Believe love is a choice you make, not earn and you act lovingly from that choice, not from fear or earning

When she yells, your first boundary enforcement would be to hold up your right hand, palm out, and state, "I believe yelling is abusive. Please stop or I will remove myself from our conversation."

If she continues, "I am removing myself now and will return in ten minutes, after my fear and emotions settle down."

After you return, if she continues yelling, "You are choosing to cross my boundary of abuse. I will not resume this conversation for four hours."

You remove your presence for your protection and protection for your relationship.

Each time, consistent enforcement...for all your boundaries. State what it is, how it affects you and what you are doing about it. Using "I" statements...this is about you, not her. You respect she is choosing her behavior as you respect you are choosing yours.

Listen and repeat is for clarity, to knock out your own assumptions, and by lengthening the information time...what you're hearing and not reacting to...(more difficult to react when your focus is on hearing the information correctly, not reacting to it). I believe it is essential to having boundaries and enforcing them...if we DJ, we perceive them being crossed when they aren't...so enforcement becomes punishment.

First is to know your boundaries, then have clarity for what crosses that boundary, real or perceived, and then to enforce. Toughest part, and why I broke out what you could use as what you will do and will not allow yourself to do...is you'll have a hard time attempting to enforce a boundary which you cross yourself.

Balance.

If you criticize yourself..."I shouldn't be angry" "I shouldn't be happy" "I should be joyful" "I should be peaceful" then you will hear others' opinions as reinforcing criticism.

What you do not allow yourself to do to others, you cannot allow yourself to do to you. And vice versa.

When you don't do it to yourself, you will enforce your boundaries when it is being done to you...consistently.

If you believe you earn love from others, hence, security, then you will experience punishment, as well. If you choose to believe we can only be loved for what we do or do not do, then you are essentially telling self that self isn't valuable or lovable as is...which self is. Way you were made. Self doesn't "do" it is...you are...you exist...and are loved before you speak a single word or take a single action...before you make a single choice. You are.

I believe that's crucial knowledge to enforcing boundaries...because boundaries only surround self...real self...if you make a boundary to be treated respectfully because you EARNED respect, then you are allowing to be treated disrespectfully when you don't earn it, correct?

If you act disrespectful, then you are allowing yourself to punish yourself and others, given the dynamic you live...the very premise...of earning love, earning punishment, deserving from serving...what do you deserve from being served, then?

Thank you for listing "linked behavior" which was a very subtle thing in my marriage by my DH. This passive aggressive action was his mode of escaping blame...because I had said, "When you walk away from me, I feel ignored, abandoned." So he chose to do the 180 and not leave a room until I did, a car, etc., which was him making him do this, in his perception, and certainly didn't aid him in enforcing boundaries when I AO'd.

Removing blame from our marriage by removing it as a concept, a belief that it exists, within myself, helped me in my intent to live respectfully. I used to blame H for his withdrawal, his silent treatment, as a reflection of something I caused...which disrespected his choice to withdraw. When I did this, H stopped withdrawing. His choice. Mine was to stop myself from DJing that his anger, pain, fear and frustration were being caused by me, as if I were in control of what I couldn't be, and therefore ensuring I believed I could cure him. I believe the concept of blame leaves with getting our realities straight.

LA

Dear LA,

Thank you for your in-depth reply. My wife and I had a somewhat healing discussion, and then she walked out of the door while leaving our discussion hanging. I called her on her cell-phone and said that it's simply not OK for her to just leave while we're talking. I think she held the phone away from her ear, which is what she does to her mother (who abused her and who still abuses her). So, she didn't hear what I had to say.

I don't understand the following acronymns:
DM
DJ
FWW
FWH
EA/PA

...I guess I don't understand the signatures on this forum. I searched a bit, but couldn't find the explanations. Maybe I'm missing the page.

I guess I just don't think it's OK for me to have to enforce my boundaries in my marriage. I always thought that when you love someone, you just don't cross their boundaries, as a matter of fact, you do everything you can to have a great relationship. You talk, you find out what the person likes and doesn't like. You do the things the person likes, you don't do the things the person dislikes. Easy.

If you have to do something that's challenging for you, well, you do it, you learn from it, and you move forward happily.

But to have to "enforce" my own boundaries? Sounds like something you only need to do if your partner violates you intentionally or otherwise.

I've found myself saying things like "I will speak with you in kindness, however, I am going to leave now, I will not hear or speak in an angry tone."

It has worked a few times, but I think my wife gets vengeful, she then does what she can to make me mad. She wants to get me mad so that she can blame me for displaying an angry tone myself. It just seems so childish, so immature. Today, I said "if you call me difficult one more time, I will separate from you for seven days." She didn't call me difficult again, so I guess that worked...but how awful to need to say something like that. She called me difficult, because she basically made false statements about my feelings, said that I feel this way I feel that way, then she started drawing conclusions and making decisions based on the feelings that she was projecting onto me. When I told her that her description of my feelings was inaccurate, she called me difficult.

I own my own feelings. She does not get to criticize me for feelings I don't even have and then run around insisting that I have those feelings.

The whole acknowledge and validate thing...it's hard to keep it up when your partner has a difficult time reciprocating.

Also, when trying to set up boundaries, it's as if my wife marches all over my boundaries whenever she knows I'm "trapped," if you will. For example, if I'm working from home that day. Where am I supposed to go? All of my files are here, the food I like is here, my computer is here.

A fake solution would be "get mobile, get laptop..." but some of the things I do require files, papers, etc. I can make myself mobile occasionally, but I need to plan for that. Wouldn't it be better to just have a marriage that's mutually supportive and enjoyable?

Today, I feel destroyed. In general, I think my wife and I get along pretty well actually. What really hurts is that I feel so alone with our marital difficulties. On the outside, my guess is that we are a very positive couple. I told a cousin of mine a little bit about our marital difficulties, and he was shocked. So was my sister. And I've only told them a tiny bit of what I feel I've experienced.

My wife just called, and she seems to have come to her senses. Sorry to put it that way, but she had a kind tone and was reasonable.

Oddly enough, there was a gas leak below us earlier today. We argued. She left. I had some project people come over, and one of the project folks noticed the smell of gas. Fire department, gas company, everybody out of the building...the whole thing.

Turns out some nut was emptying a propane canister on his balcony!

Maybe we were oxygen deprived!

Seriously.

I pray for all marriages currently experiencing difficulties. I pray that the difficulties transform into wonderous fulfillment.

Peace,
D--

D,

Thank you for reading my long posts.

DM - My typo for "D--"
DJ - Disrespectful Judgment - a Love Buster
FWW - Formerly Wayward Wife
FWH - Formerly Wayward Husband
EA/PA - EA is Emotional Affair/PA is Physical Affair

There is an acronym list at the top of the Infidelity: Just Found Out forum (not easy to find)

"I guess I just don't think it's OK for me to have to enforce my boundaries in my marriage. I always thought that when you love someone, you just don't cross their boundaries, as a matter of fact, you do everything you can to have a great relationship. You talk, you find out what the person likes and doesn't like. You do the things the person likes, you don't do the things the person dislikes. Easy."

Did you have personal boundaries before you were married? With coworkers, family of origin, friends, acquaintances and strangers?

"I own my own feelings. She does not get to criticize me for feelings I don't even have and then run around insisting that I have those feelings."

For my own clarity, does this mean that she does not get to critize you for feeling you do have, also?

Are you both still in MC (marital counseling)?

Could you elaborate on this? ". My wife and I had a somewhat healing discussion, and then she walked out of the door while leaving our discussion hanging."

You said "had a somewhat healing discussion" and I read that as complete...and then you say she walked out leaving the discussion hanging?

Boundaries aren't about changing her behavior...so when you say, "it worked a few times" or "she didn't say difficult again" I'm not hearing your stuff...are you doing these boundary enforcements for you or to make her stop doing something?

In counseling, were you advised to stop fixing her stuff? All of it? No job advice, no fixing her feelings, thoughts or beliefs?

I think you referred to it as you seeing you're good at helping her (not the cleaning, providing stuff).

How has the sleeping and her waking you changed?

Did you read "His Needs, Her Needs" "Love Busters" and "Fall in Love, Stay in Love"?

"I guess I just don't think it's OK for me to have to enforce my boundaries in my marriage. I always thought that when you love someone, you just don't cross their boundaries, as a matter of fact, you do everything you can to have a great relationship. You talk, you find out what the person likes and doesn't like. You do the things the person likes, you don't do the things the person dislikes. Easy."

How long have you been married? Does that doing everything you can to have a great relationship include sacrificing for one another?

I didn't see where you answered Myschae about asking your wife what her idea of marriage, how she imagined it would be...what is her expectation?

Would you consider that listen and repeating (the summarizing your counselor had you do) is hard to keep up if you're doing it so you will be heard, rather than doing it so you hear clearly? If you're doing it for you, it's much easier than if you're doing it to get a certain response and you don't get that response, I believe.

Why would someone empty a propane cannister? Am I clueless here...or don't you just return them?

LOL...I like your oxygen deprived theory very much. That and crazy neighbors in the building?

Another thought I had was looking into Imago therapy...I think there are websites about it...Others here have more knowledge, but the premise, as explained to me, is that the partners we choose to marry are because we are working out issues from our family of origin (FOO) with them...I think it includes combinations of people from our family, working on issues within a relationship because that's where those issues began...in our first relationships.

My DH and I discovered a lot of behaviors we didn't realize we were doing, or how they were being perceived, straight from our FOO. Really helped me to see him separate from my perception and for him to see me as separate as we identified a lot of the players in our marriage...when it's really just for the two of us.

I can tell you that your expectation for how marriage should be is outside my experience before MB. You crave acceptance from your wife, and I don't see you posting how much you accept her. My counselor said whatever I was wanting most was a signal to what I was giving the least.

Really popped my eyes at that one...resonated like a bell inside me.

We took 16 years of our marriage and a lot of horrible stuff to get to thriving...part of our journey, I believe, which got us here.

No simple answers in a human marriage--a union of two very complex human beings.

LA

Thanks for the continued correspondence. I appreciate it.

The acronymn list helps put things together when re-reading these posts. I still need to look up DH.

I'd like to pull out a few quotes and discuss them:


Other people around me criticize themselves, and I try to help them not be so harsh towards themselves. In a way, I feel like I've been drained. Sure, I have a few negative thoughts here and there, but in general, I have a nice self-image. I have some weak points, and I try to share those with my wife. When I do, she generally yells at me. Recently, things have turned towards the better. She's started reciprocating the listening that I do for her.

If I'm weak at enforcing a personal boundary (possibly self judgement), then isn't that all the more reason for my wife to bolster me, to say "hey, you're not being very nice to yourself by thinking/saying XYZ, and I think you're great!"

Isn't that what we're on this earth to do? To help and love each other?

I have no idea how to enforce this boundary. I feel that my wife does to me what I simply cannot allow myself to do to others (roommates, friends, etc.). What's interesting is that she never did those things to me while we were dating, even when we were engaged. It's like marriage was her excuse to start abusing me.

It's taken a lot of time for me to clarify that certain boundaries, in my mind, are classified as physical abuse. For example, not letting me go to sleep when I want to is not my being "impatient," it's her physically abusing me, and her behavior thereby determines the happiness in our marriage.

Yes, I let her trounce all over me, if that's what she chooses to do. She has to live with herself and what her actions are doing to me.

Results gained through fighting are non-results. Who cares if she cleans the dishes because I yelled? It doesn't matter anymore, she didn't clean the dishes because she wants to have a happy home and a good marriage. Who cares if she comes to bed because I've demanded it? It doesn't matter, because she hasn't come to bed because I'm sleepy, because she loves me and she wants me to be well rested.

So, she is completely free to hurt me...and she does in many ways.

I have to be open to her. Otherwise, we aren't really married.


I guess I've always just allowed people to drift in and out of my life. I've had some negative experiences with the kind of people who choose to take advantage of others. They've treated me very badly, and hence, I've had one particular very bad relationship. I've also had isolated problems with supervisors or authority figures who've just decided to "hate" me. I have a situation with an authority figure right now, and she is in the position to fire me from a good position. I'm doing excellent work, and she told me that she's unhappy with my "results," but she won't look at my work. Honestly, she won't even look at my work. She's basing her perception of my "results" on what a competing external consultant whose position is threatened is telling her.

So, now and then, I come across someone who is just seething with negativity or anger, and it sometimes gets heaped onto me. Fortunately, I've learned that, in general, those people are heaping their negativity and anger onto everyone else as well, and I'm not alone in my suffering "under" that person. So, great, I've learned that sometimes sharing my perceptions about another person can be very positive. I generally find out "oh, God, he/she did that to you too? Man, he/she did this to so and so and did that to me, and whooo, I don't think that person will be working at this University/Company/Organization for long, except that ..."

So, yes, somewhere inside, I've made it a point to simply not enforce my own "boundaries," and to thereby only attract the kinds of poeple who can live with looking in the mirror regarding how they are treating me.

So, maybe that attracts two kinds of people: a) really wonderful, sparkling, friendly, giving people, and b) really base people who could care less how they treat another human being.

Interestingly, I'm doing better at getting rid of the b's in my life. Also, there are borderline people, and there are wonderful people who sometimes exhibit very negative characteristics.



What I mean here is that she can't define my feelings, and then blame me for them.

Something like:
W: You just want dinner to be on time, and when it's not the way you want it, you get mad. You're being a dictator. Critical and demanding!
H: I want changes in plans to be communicated...
W: ...and you're not happy with the food
H: I'm happy with the food, I love the food, I love...
W: So you just want things to be on time.
H: ...it's not about the time, yes the time would...
W: And if it's not on time you're mad.
H: That's not at all how I think.

[I may as well give this one a happy ending]

W: You're just upset all the time
H: I'm not upset at all, well, sure I'm a little bit upset, but that's not the point
W: There is no point here.
H: Sure there's a point.
W: There is no point, leave me alone
H: I don't feel understood
W: You just need things to be at a particular time.
H: I can understand how you would think that, especially when I said "are we going to eat, it's 7:30 and you said we'd eat at 6, I'm pretty hungry." Maybe you thought I was mad, but I was just hungry. That's why I started eating some carrots.
W: I can make something in 20 minutes
H: That's great, OK, yes I feel neglected that you promised to have dinner ready at 6, and then you didn't. Also, I don't really like food that was made in a rush, and I really don't understand why you were sitting and reading a magazine for the last 2 hours...I didn't say anything in order to give you a chance to meet your promise to me, but you just sat there. Why did you do that?
W: I don't know, I just wasn't thinking about anything
H: Can you understand how that would hurt me?
W: Yes, and I don't want to hurt you.
H: I know you don't want to hurt me.
W: Want to keep talking while I make dinner?
H: OK.
W: So it's not about the timing of the dinner?
H: No it isn't, it's about communicating changes and respecting the other person's needs, feelings, wants, etc.
W: So what you're saying is that, if there's a change, then you find it respectful for the person making the change to communicate it to the other partner?
H: That's exactly what I'm saying.
W: And that's what hurt you, because I was sitting on the couch reading when I said that I was going to have dinner ready at 6?
H: Exactly.
W: And you aren't just forcing me to go to the kitchen and make food for you because you're an a--hole?
H: Uhh, no, not at all.
W: ...and you're willing to cook now and then?
H: I'm glad to cook now and then, and I like to know about a day or two in advance. If I know two days in advance, then I can make something special.
W: Really?
H: Yes. I think you felt like I was insisting you make dinner, but I was really hurt that you promised something and then didn't keep that promise...and the broken promise wouldn't even be a broken promise if you had said something like "you know, dinner will be at 7:30, not at 6, like I said, I got wrapped up in reading, and maybe you can eat a snack to tide you over, we have some great organic carrots..."
W: So it's really about the promise and the related communication?
H: Yes, that's exactly what it's about, and I love to food you prepare, I really do, it's always made with so much love and care.
W: You're the greatest
H: No, you're the greatest!
W: You're the double greatest!
H: Yes, yes I am, and you're the most beautiful woman ever!
W: You better stop it, or no one is going to be doing any eating...
H: Does nibbling ears count as eating?

[fill in the rest!]

It took a while to get to the happy ending, but basically, I feel like my wife defines my feelings a lot without checking for accuracy. She runs off an emotional cliff based on her assumptions of what my feelings are. I do whatever I can to correct her understanding of my feelings, but often, she doesn't listen. Then, when I tell her that her summary of my feelings is wrong, she'll get mad. In the dialog above, things worked out well, and that's what I intend for our now and our future.

The last counselor we saw was pretty immature. She was overwhelmed just by our explanation of what we've been through. She asked us how we coped!

So, we have some tapes and workbooks, and they are helping. I pray and meditate a lot, and my wife is much more able to listen and respond. So, we're in sort of an off-and-on counseling situation at church.

More than 3 years, less than 10. I guess, unfortunately, I've sacrificed a lot in our marriage. Maybe that needs to change.


I listen and repeat. I summarize to her satisfaction...she likes it and she's used to it. She gets very frustrated when her summaries of my thoughts aren't right from the outset. She cuts my thoughts short, offers a quick solution, and gets upset when she hasn't understood something I've said. So, our conversations have been very one way. She'll even say in counseling that she feels understood by me. Also, I really do listen, care, and do everything I can to see things from her perspective.

So, now, I intend for listening, caring, and understanding to be reciprocated.

Every once in a while, especially recently, my Wife has "allowe" me to say "well, that's not quite how I feel, what I feel is this, and what I think is that." And then, the miracle has started happening, instead of yelling at me and getting frustrated, she has said "so what you're trying to say is xyz," and we've gone back and forth a few times...and then...she actually does understand.

It hasn't happened that often, but it's happening more and more, and that's what I intend for our marriage from now on.

I'll look into Imago.


When you give without getting, at some point, you try to solve the problem by ceasing to give. When you give without wanting anything in return, it feels wonderful, until you look around and realize that everything has been taken away from you. Instead of being kind, you are a fool. You have nothing, your credit is shot, and you face the contempt of people who don't see the reasons for your situation, but who just judge based on current circumstance.

The Universe tends to balance things, and I've received from other sources, which has been great. I wish for my marriage to be balanced...to be whole and wonderful.

It's friendly for the Universe to coordinate a gift for me, kind words from others. I accept those gifts and kind words, and I wish for the Universe to add those kinds words to my vocabulary for my wife, and to her vocabulary for me.

In a way, I see my wife as a recovering addict. She didn't show her addiction until we got married. She was abused, and now, she's faced it. She let go a lot of the past resonances when she visited with her family, and it's been wonderful for our marriage.

It's also OK for me to be right about a few things. There's a difference between someone who insists on being right all the time, and someone who would like a few of the things he's said to be acknowledged as viable and beautiful and helpful. Also, I intend to exude and express my good intentions for my wife and for my marriage. I wish and hope for her to accept that I have good intentions, but I now release myself of any obligation to convince her.

This morning was tough. She is teaching a mini-class here at home. We got up a bit late. She started stomping around and throwing clothes on the floor.

The class is over. I just tried to tell her that I find hurried stomping and disrespect of our property to be negative behavior. She couldn't hear me or listen to me.

My take is: OK, we have this much time, you do this, I'll do that, and everything will be great. My wife's take is: everything is frustrating and difficult, and I'm going to throw our jackets on the floor in the bedroom, because I'm in a hurry. My take is: for goodness sake, just open the closet and place the jackets there, or give them to me and I'll do it.

I tried to talk with her, and now she said she's hungry and about to faint.

OK, well. Fine, she's hungry and about to faint.

I was in the bedroom during the class. I picked up the jackets and put them away nicely. Then, while writing this post, I realized that I'm "fixing her negative behavior." So, I just took the jackets and purses and threw them back onto the floor. I didn't do it in anger, it's just that I'm done with cleaning up her messes.

It gets to be a problem when others see her mess and assume it's my mess. I intend for her to realize it's our mess. Ours. She can choose to deny my invitation to friendly, loving communication. She can choose to deny my invitation to a life of laughs, giggles, trips, etc.

I also don't want to bribe her...I wish that trips, giggles and laughs weren't necessary to "convince" her. So, forget the bribes.

I invite her to join my on a journey of fun, kindness, adventure, and healing!

Best,
D--

I guess I've seen this forum as an outlet for all of my complaints. My complaints weren't heard in my marriage, so I came here. My thoughts, feelings, opinions, preferences, needs, etc. weren't validated or heard.

Can I accept and love my wife for who she is, and still not agree with her choices? Can I accept her and love her for who she is and think she's making mistakes regarding her thoughts, her career, her opinion of me, her opinion of our marriage, her opinion of what is necessary to make money, her opinion of how to treat another person?

What if I see her be really critical and rude to another person? I guess I'm supposed to say "I love you, and I thought you were really rude to Charles." or "I love you, and in my opinion, you treated that hot dog vendor like he was a worthless human being. Maybe he is a recovering alcoholic, maybe he lost his wife in an accident, maybe he did some bad things and he's trying to put his life back together, maybe he doesn't need you yelling at him about putting the wrong mustard on the hot dog. You could have just told him nicely and I'm sure he would have made you another hot dog."

So, that's a pretty good example, actually. My wife treats a stranger rudely, I feel called to say something, so I do.

What should I do? Should I just smile and pretend like I didn't see my wife act rudely to someone? Often, she won't see that people are treating her the way she's treating them, and am I just supposed to be out of that loop?

I've done a decent job of stepping out of that loop, actually, it's just that I'm sometimes embarrassed by my wife's behavior. Actually, embarrassment is a core emotion I feel regarding our marriage.

Embarrassed by the difference between where I know we would both be, if my feelings, preferences, thoughts, needs, and emotions were considered as much as hers are. Also, yes, I'd like to be able to help my wife adjust her negative views of our future and it's been working.

She's been letting me in. She's been considering my thoughts, and we are in financial recovery. She's agreed to keep track of her expenses, something she refused to do before. She's listened to some of the things I've said, and she's taken them into consideration.

Honestly, I don't think these years needed to be as bad as they were, and that hurts. I feel if my wife had just listened to my intentions instead of negating and castrating and defeating and stomping and yelling...well, things would have been a lot better.

And, as I said before, it's OK for me to be right about a few things. She's yelling less, she's stomping less, and well, it give me room to concentrate on me. I can actually think a little bit about my behavior, because she's not yelling at me all the time.

So, how can one accept and love another person fully, but not accept particular behaviors? Is that possible?

I love a lot of what my wife does, but am I to love her yelling at me? Her negating my thoughts that we can have a wonderful life together?

Is it conditional love to say "I love you, but I don't love being yelled at?"

Is she testing my boundaries, showing me her worst worst worst self, to see if I really love her? OK, well, I still love her. I'm hurt by her choice to test me in that fashion instead of just having a blast together, but it seems like she's coming around.

With the few changes she's made, I've been able to relax a bit and work. I've been able to bring in more money. I have good projects I'm working on that are positioned to succeed. She's relented with her constant demands of my time, and I can work on my projects. She sees the literal payoff...oh, if I let him work, he'll earn, and then we'll have money. If I stop criticizing him all the time, it will be easier for him to work, earn, rest, and everything will be happier.

So, all in all, things are much much better.

The direction of our marriage is good. I can now look at myself, but I guess she really was the "hurt bird." I didn't know how hurtful her upbringing really was...

Best,
D--

Hi again, D!

"I still need to look up DH." Dear Husband.

I think you really got to something important here:

"Other people around me criticize themselves, and I try to help them not be so harsh towards themselves."

So, when they are putting themselves down, you tell them not to...very similar to you not feeling heard by your wife. Can you see that? If someone puts themselves down, you disrespect them when you believe you can help them to not be so harsh on themselves. That's their choice. You can listen and repeat, so they hear how harsh they sound, validate you heard them...state you don't seem them the same way without refuting.

"In a way, I feel like I've been drained."

I believe feeling drained is a signal to you; putting your energy where you have no control.

"Sure, I have a few negative thoughts here and there, but in general, I have a nice self-image. I have some weak points, and I try to share those with my wife. When I do, she generally yells at me."

Would that be telling you that you're being harsh on yourself in a harsh way? Can you see how you doing this to others is the same as her doing it to you?

"Recently, things have turned towards the better. She's started reciprocating the listening that I do for her."

Super!! Acknowledging is awesome.

"If I'm weak at enforcing a personal boundary (possibly self judgement), then isn't that all the more reason for my wife to bolster me, to say "hey, you're not being very nice to yourself by thinking/saying XYZ, and I think you're great!"

Really? You think she should bolster you? Change what you're thinking...your feeling weak, or bad, or confused? Because you do that for others (and feel drained), you believe she should do it for you. To be respectful, she would acknowledge and repeat what she heard you say, maybe add, "I feel a little fear when you kick yourself this hard. I know what you do to you, you'll do to me."

That's the truth of boundaries and standards. Telling YOURSELF that's not who I want to be...if I self-punish, I will punish others; if I self-respect, I will do so to others. My choice.

Good to know you have this expectation of others...that they will reciprocate in the same way what you do for them.

"Isn't that what we're on this earth to do? To help and love each other?"

There was a Ziggy cartoon in the papers back in the 70's, where he said, "If we're here to help others, what are the others here for?"

I remember that because I laughed and thought...and didn't get it, either. If everyone on the planet was made by the hand of God, created whole, complete and wonderful...their true selves...all are capable of what he said they were responsible for...their thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions and perspectives...all theirs. That being their province, their truth. Their actions are in the province of The Truth...the rest, well, is their own truth.

Which means, what you choose to believe is your own...and if you believe you should have control over how others feel about themselves. That means you're willing to hold a mirror up for them, defining them through your eyes, and this is how every human on the planet begins their life...with a caretaker's mirror...where we can't tell where we end and our caretaker begins...through infancy and into our two's and three's...we begin learning our physical boundaries, even as we begin determining our mental and emotional ones...wait! If Mom is sad, I'm sad. If Mom is angry, I'm made her...and breaking away from this, to identify we are separate beings, not one, is a tumultous process. When we enter adult relationships, especially marriage, with the advent that two shall become one...well, that can go right back to our beginnings...you lift me up, I lift you up...which we work hard at during Phase I because it appears to be win/win...the right way to live.

Then comes Phase II of marriage...when we begin to share our true selves, which is an act of commitment to intimacy...true intimacy is knowing ourselves and sharing what we know with our spouses...that's when the lifting up quits working, because our truth can certainly take another person down, instead, even though we're sharing our feelings...the other person now feels responsible for feelings because we gave them that responsibility when we permitted ourselves to believe THEY were the reason we were lifted up...

And it falls down...way down...when we rely on others to manage our feelings, through mirrors, where we have no control...when our feelings are our very own, they are valid; information about us to us...

"I have no idea how to enforce this boundary."

You are NOT alone...first is to make your boundaries...which are around you, about you. They come from your standards (which is what you do not permit yourself to do to others)...so you have balance. Others do...they choose their actions, just like you do. You cannot control their choices, ever. So, when they cross your boundary (you do not allow yourself to lie to others and they just lied to you), then you have PREDETERMINED, progressive boundary enforcements. Their lies have to do with actions...they didn't take out the trash and they said they did...not feelings...they told you they didn't feel happy...and then they did...that's not a lie. First determine the source of the lie...then act on it.

Usually, statements are first. Your choice. "I know you lied about the trash." They do it again. "I know you are lying about the trash and I feel angry and ignored." Third, "I do not believe you when you say you've done something. I will do the trash." (Your choice is to either do the trash yourself or to not care if it gets emptied or not. If you choose to do the trash yourself, you must only do so if you know you're doing it because YOU can't stand it...not because they repeatedly lied. Doing it as you create resentment each time corrodes yourself, not others.

"I feel that my wife does to me what I simply cannot allow myself to do to others (roommates, friends, etc.). What's interesting is that she never did those things to me while we were dating, even when we were engaged. It's like marriage was her excuse to start abusing me."

Phase I is dating, engaged and early years of married...it varies...Phase II is where a lot of marriages fall apart because it feels like bait and switch--and it isn't. Best foot forward in Phase I, isn't a trick. That best foot is still part of the whole of our partners...the rest is part of the package, same for you and for her...if you only married your wife because of what she did for you, then you're the abuser, aren't you? We marry our partners for all of them...their essence...and their choice to love us and our choice to love them...equals. If it is more like a job that you hired your partner for, to fill your niches...then that's not love, is it? It's function, reward for effort, having nothing to do with being...and we are human beings.

So in Phase I, that's where you're at...as time passes, events are gone through together, it is an act of trust and love to reveal more of who we really are...our thoughts, feelings, beliefs, perceptions...which is sharing all of ourselves...and becomes dangerous when the partner believes they have been bamboozled. Our two clean, shiny slates get built up with grime -- resentment, wounds, pain, disappointment, fear...because we are together, in the marriage, and both are piling that gunk on. If I earned my DH's love through my consideration and attention, and when I became less considerate or attentive, then I was failing my partner...maybe because I saw him failing my expecations...which is where that earning love turns into a downward spiral...and I no longer feel love from or to my DH...because my love bank is depleted and so is his...and I withhold my truth and he withholds his because we believed each other caused the other to feel certain ways...when it was us, about us...

Harley points out that our love comes on full force when we choose to do loving acts from our choice to love...which helps us fill our own love banks...when we do less and less, we help drain ours and block our spouses from getting their deposits in there...by focusing on what they AREN'T doing only...trying to get what we think we want in the way we want it, when we want it.

When couples split, they suddenly realize A LOT of love bank deposits were going on--they now feel the loss of them--but because the discounted or dismissed...well, they missed.

Look at what your wife IS doing...she is now listening...you're being heard!!

You're listening, too...

You continue to tell others what not to do to themselves...then you will hear your wife doing that to you...and you won't have permission to stop her. You have to stop first to enforce that boundary.

"It's taken a lot of time for me to clarify that certain boundaries, in my mind, are classified as physical abuse. For example, not letting me go to sleep when I want to is not my being "impatient," it's her physically abusing me, and her behavior thereby determines the happiness in our marriage."

Again, others here have given you great advice on this subject. Takes stating directly, "I believe you are physically abusing me by disturbing myself. Either you choose to come to bed when I do and rest, getting us on a similar schedule, or you stay out of our bedroom until I get up in the morning. I need you to respect my need for sleep to work and meet your EN for FS. You working a similar schedule would greatly meet my need for sleep and EN for FS, also."

The other options...you take a sleeping pill so you don't awaken when she comes to bed. You move out. Enforcements are progressive...each time they are crossed.

"Yes, I let her trounce all over me, if that's what she chooses to do. She has to live with herself and what her actions are doing to me."

Good to know you now see where you are choosing this trouncing...that's progress...and there's a payoff in it...it's false...so find it. We all live with ourselves, period. You cannot enforce a boundary around her, her behavior...only your own.

"Results gained through fighting are non-results. Who cares if she cleans the dishes because I yelled? It doesn't matter anymore, she didn't clean the dishes because she wants to have a happy home and a good marriage. Who cares if she comes to bed because I've demanded it? It doesn't matter, because she hasn't come to bed because I'm sleepy, because she loves me and she wants me to be well rested."

You didn't make her do the dishes because you yelled...she then CHOSE herself to do the dishes...so it matters just the same, doesn't it? What your perception did was to drain her choice away because you choose to believe you can MAKE her do stuff, thus, negate her choice and the love deposit which is possible from her choice. Your perception did that, because it's not reality...we can't make others do stuff...so do you want to live in reality or fantasy?

There's a big difference between a Selfish Demand and a Boundary...one demands that the other person change; a boundary demands that YOU change. You yell, you're abusive. You are AOing and that's hugely disrespectful. If she doesn't do the dishes which she agreed to do...and your boundary is to speak, "You lied when you said you would do the dishes. You know (because you've stated your top ENs, D) that DS (Domestic Support) is my top EN. I feel unloved and disrespected when you lie about what you are willing to do for our marriage."

Still doesn't do the dishes, "I won't stop doing my acts of love for you just because you're not doing them for me. I will, however, box up all the dirty dishes, glasses and all, and replace them with paper only. Cups, saucers, the works. That's how important this issue is to me. How do you feel about that?"

"So, she is completely free to hurt me...and she does in many ways."

You're a human in a human relationship...I would love to hear all the ways you hurt her, too...equal this out, D...ain't no one-way street.

You already told me a severe way you injure above. Tell me more.

"I have to be open to her. Otherwise, we aren't really married."

This belief that you are only married when you act married is debilitating to intimacy. All that grime build up can lead to acting like you aren't...and that's when it's crucial to KNOW and state reality, you are.

Intimacy is a life journey for us, I believe. Since it takes YOU knowing about yourself, D...and sharing it...how are you doing with that? I see you demanding the rule of protection from your wife...I don't see you giving it? If you cannot protect her from the resentment YOU create within yourself, you are doing daily harm to your marriage, aren't you?

What do you do with the c) people? Those are the ones who at times are generous, postive, sad, angry, fearful, frustrated, do harm, do healing, laugh and stay present with you, being themselves and respect you for being yourself...and then stress out, revert, don't feel you hear them, withhold, withdraw from you, then clear out their stress and are generous, positive, sparkling people...at times.

The whole of people doesn't give you any room to eliminate them...because you're connecting to them at a time, place, space in their life that is right now...doesn't say what they will think, feel or how they will act later...just as those who have no eliminated YOU from their lives...because they know all of you...your essence...and accept you...just don't like some of your actions; they state when your actions hurt them, how you crossed their boundary and what their enforcements are...and then you reconnect...

I guess that's what you meant by borderline people.

So I hear you answering me by saying no, you didn't have boundary enforcements prior to now...which is great, because then you and your wife can learn about them together...another act of intimacy and sharing...because people who know and enforce boundaries rarely marry people who don't know about them.

"What I mean here is that she can't define my feelings, and then blame me for them."

Yes, she can. It's a love buster and her choice, but she can. All humans can abuse others...they have that power...even as all humans can choose how they react to abuse...either with boundary enforcements or returning the abuse. Our choice.

"Something like:
W: You just want dinner to be on time, and when it's not the way you want it, you get mad. You're being a dictator. Critical and demanding!"

"I hear you saying that you believe my EN is not only to have dinner, but on time and in the way I want it, or I retaliate with angry, is that correct? You see me as dictorial, critical and demanding of you, is that correct?"

This puts her perception firmly over there...and allows you to consider...hey, is this a signal? If I have an EN for admiration, do I dictate how she is to fill it? How much, how often, in what way and time?

"H: I want changes in plans to be communicated...
W: ...and you're not happy with the food
H: I'm happy with the food, I love the food, I love...
W: So you just want things to be on time.
H: ...it's not about the time, yes the time would...
W: And if it's not on time you're mad.
H: That's not at all how I think."

Because you didn't strictly listen and repeat to begin with, the twisting comes in...and yes, it's abusive. She's trying to PROVE her perception...and our own truths cannot be proved...they are valid...they are ours...they are not THE truth, which is proved through actions. As long as you are not twisted in your own perceptions, you will see this exchange as less twisted if you lovingly detach instead of react.

So, tell me...is meeting the EN her preparing dinner at any time between 4pm and 10pm? Preparing it at all, any time; or does the preparation matter as well as the time? Meaning, if she slaps something together in five minutes that has less love deposits than a three-course meal?

And if her preparing dinner at a certain time was imperative to meet the RC EN and over ran into your RC time with her...does that one EN cancel out the other? Does it end up a total withdrawal from your love bank?

"W: You're just upset all the time"

H: "OUCH! That's a DJ. If you continue defining me, I will have to remove myself from our conversation for 20 minutes."

"H: I'm not upset at all, well, sure I'm a little bit upset, but that's not the point"

You just lied and the unlied...is that possible?

"W: There is no point here."

H: "That's abusive. I will return in 20 minutes to continue this conversation when you stop DJing."

"H: Sure there's a point." By not doing what I just answered, YOU escalate the abuse through refuting.

"W: There is no point, leave me alone"

Well, in my scenario, you aren't around for this...so pretend this is you coming back after 20 minutes and this is the first thing she says:

"W: There is no point, leave me alone"

H: "We both have ENs, DW (dear wife). That's my point. My stuff is my point. I am not angry with you and very much value you sharing that you perceive I am...I am angry with myself right now. I feel frustrated that I made these plans with such a tight time schedule. I am not angry with you."

"H: I don't feel understood" (go further...dismissed, discounted...defined)

Excellent.

"W: You just need things to be at a particular time.
H: I can understand how you would think that, especially when I said "are we going to eat, it's 7:30 and you said we'd eat at 6, I'm pretty hungry." Maybe you thought I was mad, but I was just hungry. That's why I started eating some carrots."

This is more refuting and does not address her point. She is saying the exact same thing she said at the beginning...is it true that for her to meet your EN, she must do the EN in a certain way, at a certain time? Information she needs to know before she decides to meet this EN or not...all the trappings...she is asking for your truth.

"W: I can make something in 20 minutes
H: That's great, OK, yes I feel neglected that you promised to have dinner ready at 6, and then you didn't."

Great sharing...can you see where from your OWN expectation, in part you felt neglected. And that isn't neglect when someone states they will do something at one time, they don't, and then they still haven't done it and a fight ensues...it's lying, not neglecting. It's passive aggressive. However...you both have been together long enough to know this stuff...she KNOWS time matters with you...she did it on purpose. She wants to hurt you. Know this. And know you do things intentionally to rile her...find them and own them. That's how we grow through in marriage...

"Also, I don't really like food that was made in a rush, and I really don't understand why you were sitting and reading a magazine for the last 2 hours"

And during the two hours you were not speaking...saying at 6:05pm..."Hey, I heard you promised to have dinner ready at 6pm. I am hungry and I'm sitting here resenting you because I believed you really would do it."

You didn't state your stuff...know that.

This is the P/A behavior setup...to make her look like the bad guy and you look like the victim...and she does stuff to make you look like the bad guy and her the victim. Toxic dance. If you stop yourself, the dance ends.

Did you notice you added a condition to your EN? Time, dinner and not made in a rush...I have to wonder how many more requirements you hide within your EN...

"...I didn't say anything in order to give you a chance to meet your promise to me, but you just sat there. Why did you do that?"

Yu began monitoring, judging her...that's a lie you tell yourself...giving her a chance...know this and realize that due to your requirements, the time, the way, you believed she broke her promise when the clock passed 6.

Why questions are abusive.

Ask yourself why you sat for two hours in a power struggle of silence? Why did you do that to yourself, to your marriage and your partner? Why are you requiring more from her (being forthright and honest) when you are not?

"W: I don't know, I just wasn't thinking about anything
H: Can you understand how that would hurt me?
W: Yes, and I don't want to hurt you.
H: I know you don't want to hurt me.
W: Want to keep talking while I make dinner?
H: OK.
W: So it's not about the timing of the dinner?
H: No it isn't,"

Oh, getting reconnected...her statement of truth...and then you lie. Ouch.

"it's about communicating changes and respecting the other person's needs, feelings, wants, etc."

She didn't say there were any changes...she didn't tell you why she didn't keep her promise...neither are being honest...you DJ, she DJs...

"W: So what you're saying is that, if there's a change, then you find it respectful for the person making the change to communicate it to the other partner?
H: That's exactly what I'm saying.
W: And that's what hurt you, because I was sitting on the couch reading when I said that I was going to have dinner ready at 6?
H: Exactly.
W: And you aren't just forcing me to go to the kitchen and make food for you because you're an a--hole?
H: Uhh, no, not at all.
W: ...and you're willing to cook now and then?
H: I'm glad to cook now and then, and I like to know about a day or two in advance. If I know two days in advance, then I can make something special.
W: Really?
H: Yes. I think you felt like I was insisting you make dinner, but I was really hurt that you promised something and then didn't keep that promise...and the broken promise wouldn't even be a broken promise if you had said something like "you know, dinner will be at 7:30, not at 6, like I said, I got wrapped up in reading, and maybe you can eat a snack to tide you over, we have some great organic carrots..."
W: So it's really about the promise and the related communication?
H: Yes, that's exactly what it's about, and I love to food you prepare, I really do, it's always made with so much love and care.
W: You're the greatest
H: No, you're the greatest!
W: You're the double greatest!
H: Yes, yes I am, and you're the most beautiful woman ever!
W: You better stop it, or no one is going to be doing any eating...
H: Does nibbling ears count as eating?"

And then we end this scenario with a lot of DJs which you both take as love...oh, my.

See, you can define each other when you LIKE the image their reflecting in the mirror...and then you PUNISH them when they define you when you DO NOT LIKE the image...can't have it both ways...then you are controlling. See the diff?

LA