Have been posting on "Plan A/B", but lurking on
GQII, and thought I might get some responses more
quickly here- please, I need advise and any
encouragement I can get !

To give some background:
Five year ago my H was diagnosed with depression and
obsessive-compulsive disorder, and he has been on meds
ever since, also tried IC twice but did not stick
with it long term.
Four years ago, he started an inappropriate "friend-
ship" with a girl over the internet. I found out
very soon after it started, called her, and confronted
him. He was mad, "ranted and raved", but she ended it
and for a short time he appeared to be working on the
M. Up to this point, things had not been "perfect"
but I felt like we had a pretty good marriage and
had a lot going for us !
Within a couple of months, I discovered that a
"business" relationship he was supposedly having
with a couple was actually an EA with just the
woman (the husband had recently died). She was
older with kids, which seemed like an odd choice,
but had $$$, which I think appealed to H, plus
he likes to be the "rescuer", so liked helping
her out in her "time of need". I called the OW,
who did know he was married, but she had made
everything sound far different than was true.
I moved out for a month, during which H really
changed his tune- he called often, wanted to
get together, and eventually asked if we could
get back together.
Things were good for awhile- I found MB and
read the books, learned about LB's, tried to
improve myself and our M. H had bouts of his
depression, but has continued to try different
medicines and did try some IC.

Around the middle of last year, H started to
seem really weird about SF- never any interest,
said he "didn't feel like it", was tired, etc.
I atributed it partly to the meds, since AD's can
have a side effect of low libido. (and H never
had high libido anyway). H talked to Dr about
it, had hormone test, tried hormone patches,
switched medicines, but really no change.
Reading I did made me wonder if he might have
sexual addiction, but didn't know for sure.

This year, we have had periods where things have
been good, but have also had times off and on where
H seems secretive, glued to his phone, spending
long hours on computer, distant, and has had some
strange charges on his credit card,and cash in his
briefcase. When confronted, he has always had an
"explanation", but there are a lot of things still
unexplained, at least to my satisfaction.

The strange behavior has continued- I have "snooped"
and found charges for the local "stripper" bar,
expensive restaurants, and internet web sites on
his credit card bill. Went online to look at our
cell phone bill, and found he had been sending and
receiving numerous text messages. Found one number
with numerous calls, so called it and it was a woman.
Got up my nerve and called her- she was suprised !
Said had "hooked up" with H on an internet site,
and had just talked and emailed with him, however,
he had told her he was single, no kids, successful
business and lots of $$$ !!!
(he has two kids from previous R, just started his
own business and we are very much in debt !)
She seemed sincere- said she wanted nothing to do
with him since he'd lied, and if he called her
again she would tell him so.

I told H and he was mad (naturally), "ranted and raved",
said we were "through", etc..(the usual) but I hoped
it might put an end to it and I'd get more of a chance
to meet his needs, shine with a good Plan A.
Things, however, didn't seem to change. H was still
secretive, quiet, gone alot, not willing to talk
about anything, and when asked about working on
things, getting counseling, or anything else he didn't
like, would say something like " there is no "us", or
"we aren't together".
Hurtful, but I tried not to react to his comments.

Several weeks ago, found out H was working on a plan
to purchase a house. We had wanted and tried to do
this a few times in past years, planning to "rehab"
an older home, either for investment purposes or
to live in ourself. This time, he didn't ask me
but just went about it himself, using his money
from his business and only his name. I didn't
say anything at first, but then after he got an
email about the loan on our email, the secret was
out and he knew that I knew. Talked about it, and
couldn't get any explanation- he would just say
"it didn't concern me", or it was just his project.
Needless to say, I feel very hurt and left out
that he did this without me. The loan was supposed
to close today <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Several weeks ago, H said he had to go out of town
over a weekend with a business associate. He has had
to do this a few times (legit) so it was possible,
but I figured he was going away with some OW,
possibly from these "internet" connections.
He went, never called all weekend, and stuck with
his story, while I had a long, miserable weekend alone.
Just saw his new credit card bill, and besides more
expensive restaurant charges, he had charges for a
hotel and restaurants in a different town (not where
he said he was going.) Also saw the new online
cell bill, and still has lots of text messages as
well as calls, to yet another phone number.
Called it, and it's another woman. I'm assuming
this may have been who he went out of town with,
but no way to know for sure.
Felt sick, as the place he went is a fun, mountain
resort where WE have gone several times. The bills
were at restaurants where WE have always gone.
I feel violated that he took somewhere else there
and so sick of the lies !

Am feeling like H is very addicted to the
internet relationships and involved with one
or more people he is meeting on there, to
what degree, I don't know ( ONS, EA, PA).
Don't know if his emotional/mental problems are
contributing as well, and if his medicine has
any bearing on any of it, so don't know if the
"normal" MB plans and materials will work, but
I'm trying. (dont' know what else to do).

Just so tired, emotionally and mentally, from
all the "up and down". I never know what to
expect any day, and almost nothing would suprise
me anymore, which is sad.
Last weekend, he went in to work for several hours
on Sat. (somewhat unusual). I figured he was either
on the phone or computer with his little "friends".
(talked several times and he was really at his office).
Came home briefly, then went to the gym (normal for him).
Home briefly again, then went out and came home after
midnight. Was in a very bad mood, didn't want to talk
or do anything with me, and said "there is no US".

The next day, however, he was up, cheerful, and asked
me to do things with him all day. We had a pleasant
time, got along all day, and did some things around
the house in the evening. Nice, but SO confusing !!

I can only assume this weird behavior and very drastic
change is reflecting great confusion on his part, and
maybe going back and forth in his mind on whether to
stay in the M, or D. ?

This week has also been up and down. He asked me
to make one of his favorite meals on Monday night
and then was over an hour late getting home !
He gave a very lame excuse-

Wed night we went out to eat, left the restaurant
at the same time, and he got home 50 minutes after
I did. The times he "disappears" don't seem to
be long enough to be getting together with someone
so I assume he is on the phone !!?

Today, after seeing the cell bill and seeing many
calls to this new number and woman, I am trying
to decide if calling her and exposing him would do
any good. I know it is normally considered a good
thing since it may bust up the relationship and
give a better chance of meeting needs and turning
the WS back towards home, however, in case of H,
I wonder if he would just find yet another person
in the internet, since it seems to be his addiction,
more than a particular person ? Seems like this
could just keep going on indefinitely unless/until
he gets some serious therapy and also probably a
change of medicine. (He indicated he wanted to go
back to IC, but a month later has not set anything
up).
I'm also fearful that him finding out I exposed might
really push him away from me and working on the M,
or , in his mental state, might cause him to really
flip out or go out drinking (which has been an
issue).

With all the issues, I am losing hope and feel very
powerless- like I'm just taking whatever "crumb" I
can get, and am at his mercy. I am trying to stick
with Plan A, work on myself and entertain myself,
but it's really hard. I can't tell if it's doing
any good, or if he's just being a cake-eater and
enjoying having things both ways.

Seems like Plan B would almost be easier (I'd be
out of his craziness) but I don't make much and
can't afford a seperate place. Both of us had
job changes last year resulting in lower income
and our finances are very strained right now.
Maybe it would be better if he moved to the house
he just bought, although since it needs work and
he is going to "rehab" it, I don't know if he
could stay there.

Thoughts, ideas, suggestions or advice please !!
I think I am caught in the twilight zone and can't
get out.

Anne

BS(me) 41
WS 38
No kids together, but H has two daughters from previous
relationships.
Married- 7 years, together for 10

Anne, I agree that you should move to Plan B in order to detach and protect yourself. He has much greater issues here than can be handled by Marriage Builder' principles. This is not a marital problem but a character issue. MB is set up to address aberrations of character aggravated [usually] by marital problems. Your H is not doing this because of marital problems but because it is a way of life. This is not an aberration of character, but rather, it is his character. And MB cannot change someone's character or personality.

Now, I am not saying that he can't change. Only that YOU can't change him. He is the only person who can do that, and he must want to change. Sure, you can do things to motivate him to change, but I don't see that any of your efforts have ever done that in the past.

I guess it comes down to a matter of acceptance. I would suggest accepting him how he is, accepting that you can't change him and making a decision on that basis. You must decide if you want to live with a man who is not faithful and move forward accordingly.

Sorry you here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

This is where Plan A and Plan B as described on the site ... are not going to be ~enough~ for your marriage situation.

Are YOU getting counseling alone? It would be useful for you to get some professional input on your coping methods.

All of us, one time or another, need out faulty thinking pointed out to us.

Sounds like you are too close to the situation to clearly see your best way to deal with serious chronic problems.

So, welcome to GQII .... and whatever we can do we will ... however, PLEASE, seek outside help for YOU ... and get yourself stronger.

Is he an alcoholic?

Thanks MelodyLane and Pepperband,
I appreciate your thoughts and support.

I have been going to IC for about a month now,
and do find it helpful.
My C has a background in analysis as well as having
been a drug/alcohol counselor, so she has been able
to give me some interesting feedback and thoughts
about what she thinks of H's behaviors.
Of course, the information and background she's using
is coming from my observances and not him directly,
but she does feel like he exhibits traits of
addictive and co-dependent type behaviors (which
are "related" to obsessive-compulsive disorder,
something he has already been diagnosed with).
I feel that he has gotten worse since starting
a new medication about two months ago, and she
said he might even be on the wrong type of
medicine, but also can't do anything about this
until he decides to take action.

She has reminded me, as both of you did, that I
can't change HIM - he is the only one who can
decide to get help and go through with it.
I was encouraged when, about a month ago, he
told me he wanted to go back to IC and asked
me to help him find out about our insurance,
who he could go to, etc. I did the research
and gave him a list of providers, but he has
done nothing with it, so far, so don't know
if he "chickened out", or what.

Her other suggestions were working on ME- with
things like stress relief (exercise, journaling,
support groups, praying, fun activities),
learning to "entertain" myself (H has become
almost sole source of recreation and companionship)
and trying to be more independent.
I am trying to do these things- just feel so
down that sometimes it's hard to get motivated
to do anything.

I have done a few things to try to protect myself-
opened my own bank account (although I don't have
much to put in it) and took copies of all our
important paperwork on the house, land we own,
bank accounts, loans, etc. I am also checking to
see if I can find some classes I can take or
something I can do to make more money, as
right now our finances are very tight, and
if we D I will need to have more income.
Feel very sad to realize I may lose my house,
car(wouldn't be able to afford) as well as
my M and H, who used to be my best friend before
he was like this.

As I mentioned H just bought another house for
"rehab" purposes, and perhaps he will go there
to stay soon. In this case, we will go into
Plan B, which might actually be less stressful
for me.

Melodylane..you asked if he is an alcoholic.
I'm not actually sure if he would be considered an
alcoholic, but he does have some sort of issue with
alcohol. We have a fully-stocked bar at our house
that he's never touched in years, and he never
even has a drink out with dinner or for a special
occasion, but then periodically he will go through
a period where he goes to the bar every weekend for
a few weeks and drinks (almost like on a "binge")
and he sometimes drives home when he shouldnt be,
which scares me to death. (He has previously had
a DUI-)He's also not supposed to be drinking while taking
AD's !

I will continue to post and appreciate any further
feedback, suggestions or support from everyone.
Anne

Updated on 8/15-
Please give feedback and feelings about EXPOSURE !
Melodylane, Pepperband, others ?

H continues to be secretive, defiant, very FOGGY !
Still don't know any details, but did get online
access to H's most recent phone bill Friday, and
found repeat calls to the same number, starting
about the end of June and continuing into August.
I called it and got voicemail of a female.

Also got access to H's business credit card bill,
and found more mysterious charges. He had two
charges at a restaurant, one for $100 and one
over $300- both on weekdays, so must have been for
a lunch. That much, though, doesn't seem like it'd
be lunch for just two, so wondered if this was
possibly a business lunch where he bought for s
several people and not OW related.
Also found charges that show H was not where he
said he was going when he went out of town on
"business" several weeks ago. He was in
a different town, with charges for a hotel,
grocery store and two restaurants, with amounts
that looks like a meal for "2".

Got access to H's actual phone Friday night and
found the listing for this female, but she is
listed with a business name/type, and H has
previously said this person is someone he's doing
business with. No way to really find out, so I'm
a bit hesitant to EXPOSE, in case she really is
a business contact and not A ?
Or, maybe he is saying this and putting this with
her number to "throw me off" ?

In the past few days, H has seemed angry, although
I've not done anything different or changed my
behavior or actions. He ranted and raved on a
phone conversation about how we are "over", "not
together", and that I need to be accepting it.
(is he trying to convince me or himself ?)
He says nothing is any of my business, I shouldn't
what he does or care since there is no "us", etc.
all things that sound very FOGGY to me.
If I question or say anything he doesn't like, he
threatens with moving out or filing D paperwork.

Should I expose anyway- knowing he will be VERY
angry ? I'm afraid it might push him over the edge
to either move out and/or file the D paperwork, just
to get back at me. I'm also a bit afraid he might
go out drinking.

When H was involved in some A's four years ago,
I did call and exposed every time, so he knows
I will do this, and probably for this reason, is
very strongly telling me to stay out of his business.

Thanks for all help-
Anne

Anne, I just don't see how exposure is going to change anything since you have been through all this before. the problem is that this is a way of life for him and you can't change that. This is something that is way beyond Marriage Builder's capabilities to resolve. I would, instead, rely upon your IC and take steps to protect yourself from him. I would get checked for STD's and protect your finances. I am sorry I can't be more hopeful, but I honestly agree with your IC that you cannot change him, and the issue comes down to accepting him as he is.

Thanks Melodylane-
I'm trying to just stay in a "neutral" mood for
as long as I can, just trying to be as detached
as I can be, and not reacting to the erratic
and FOGGY behavior of H.
I have tried to do the things I could think of
to protect myself financially- I opened my own
bank account and have made copies of all the
paperwork pertaining to our bank accounts, loans,
ownership,etc, just in case they are needed.
H has always been good about making sure bills
are paid on time, keeping good credit, etc.
and I don't really think he is out to s***w
me over financially, but with his foggy mind
and manipulative behavior, I can't be sure.
For the past couple of months, H has been
transferring money from his business accounts
to our joint accounts for all of our bills,
less the amount of my paycheck, but he may
get more difficult about this as his money
gets tighter.
(He just bought a house that he is "rehabbing",
so will have a new loan payment to make, just
had a car accident and has to pay the deductible,
and has been running up big charges on his
business credit card with questionable stuff).

H keeps asking me to make a list of the things
I want from our house. Don't know if he's just
doing this because he plans to move to the other
house once it's in decent shape and he's planning
what he'll need, if it's just a manipulative
"threat" type of thing to hurt/make me mad.
I've not done so, and don't really want to.
I tried to turn it around and said if there was
something he was wanting, HE should make a list
and see if I'd agree. What do you think ?
I guess I can also ask my IC about this, and/or
also maybe a lawyer ?

I know that H has gotten separation/divorce paperwork
from the courthouse, but I don't believe he's done
anything with it. I don't know if he's just
mentioned it as something to be a "threat" to me,
really intends to do it, or got it so he could
try to show his OW that hes "separated".
I have even thought about just getting the paperwork
myself so it would "neutralize" him using that as
his leverage.

Even though I feel very sad about it and would feel
very empty and lonely if he moves out, I am beginning
to feel like it would be a relief to be removed from
his crazy, foggy world and constant mood changes.

We went through this same thing about 4 years ago,
and to the best of remembrance, he is following
almost exactly the same pattern. I moved out
for a month and did sort of a Plan B, which seemed
to be the thing that brought him out of the fog
and he asked if we could get back together.
I'd like to think that could happen again this time,
but don't know if I have the energy and patience
to wait it out. If it did, I would also certainly
know not to just take him back- he would have to
get into therapy and be making some progress and
following the MB principles too.

Guess it's just a matter of deciding if it's worth
it, or if I have the strength to just end it.
Either feels like a death sentence right now...
Anne