The court gave H joint custody of OC and he lives with us 50% of the week, half the holidays, summer, etc. The OW gets $63 a month in child support. We were very happy with the courts final decision and the OW was furious but who cares about that? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here is the thing. xOW was offered a job 1000 miles away. She will be making mega bucks and will be very close to her parents and a sister I think. Her boyfriend wants to relocate there as well.

According to the custody papers OW cannot move with OC. If she does my H will get primary physical custody. Vice versa if we were to move.

H has consulted with 2 different lawyers and both told him that the chances of OW being able to take OC out of state is slim to none.....almost impossible. She has a history of denying visitation (she finally quit when she was slapped with fines plus having to pay our legal fees to the tune of $7,000+) so she has no chance.

The OW knows this and has admitted to as much. I heard that she has consulted with 4 different lawyers. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

She is BEGGING us to allow the move. Here is what she offered.

She will pay 100% of the transportation costs and we do not have to pay child support.

She will pay for 100% of daycare and medical. She has offered extremely generous visitation. She will fly him out 1 weekend a month, 8 weeks in the summer, majority of the holidays, every spring break, etc.

Now this sounds like a sweet deal but my first thought was to say no. We have integrated OC into our family and I think the only person who would really benefit from this is OW at the expense of H being involved in OC's day to day life.

Husband has already told OW no. She has been going on and on about how we are ruining her life and ruining her career. She hates our state and I am punishing her. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> She sent me an e-mail congratulating me on my "revenge". <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I want some outside opinions. I think it's more important for OC to have his father in his life than to live with OW in another state. She has a choice if she wants to move or not. So any thoughts, opinions?

LIzbeth, I"d move your post and start a new one....

But yeap, I'm with you and your h on this one.

Some may say hey this is a sweet deal, but your husband would be loosing out.

The only thing I would worry about is the oc's relationship with it's mother. How close are they? What gender is the oc? There are alot to weight out.

OC is 4 and is a boy. They are close. We will be happy to have OC full time. If xOW moves I won't lie and say we would not be thrilled but if her relationship with OC suffers that will be on her conscience, not ours. She has the choice of staying and keeping things as they are.

Children are not property to be fought over or divided. Sometimes the courts, while striving to be equitable, fail to do what is "just." It's up to the adults in the child's life to act in a fashion that doesn't rest on the rights awarded them by the courts, but rather by what will ultimately benefit the child.

My advice...be gracious and generous and let that child and his mother go. If you don't, I fear that everything that goes wrong in her life, from the point forward, will be blamed on you and your DH. Fair? Definitely not...but life isn't fair, sometimes. IF the ow sees this as "your revenge" don't you think she'll have adequate opportunity to raise her son to view you as vindicative and bitter? Not that that is right...it's just real.

I understand your position, I really do. But, how would you feel if someone was threatening to take away your child because you wanted to take a different job, provide financially for your child, move to a different place and be closer to your family?

It's certainly up to you and DH whether you want to allow OC to move. However...

Triple-check whether she can *legally* disallow your husband's child support; most of the time, the mother can legally pursue money even if the man gives up all legal rights (whether she does or not is up to her).

In fact, triple-check EVERYTHING she's offering and make sure it can stand up in court AND is ENFORCEABLE; with a history of denying visitation, I would not take her word. I.E. she may be offering the world now, but will anyone hold her to it once she's successfully moved?? Truly?! She will have much more power in a practical sense, kwim? How easy for her to suddenly become too busy, too broke, and to deny your H everything she can, and possibly still pursue ch-support TOO. Check the state child support laws where she wants to move, because they could be quite different and jurisdiction would change!

Besides, OC may become involved in sports, band or such
as he gets older that makes it impractical to visit long distance frequently. He'll want to spend more time with his local friends later. It's only a "sweet deal" if it can/will be enforced (and doesn't hurt OC). You can see the slippery slope of less and less involvement, eh?

I can't imagine long distance visitation going smoothly for 14 years, esp. when she's that bitter now, but I don't know her like you do. You guys have to make that call. Let us know how it goes.


Congradulations on making such a tough situation work for you and the OC thusfar!!

Best wishes,
J
7y recovery and glad I stayed
1y visitation and no regrets... so far.

BTM might be right if OC was an infant, but you've had 50% custody for 4 years, yes? This child already HAS a BOND with your family, and you with him; that should NOT be taken lightly.

If you have much time (50%) w/OC, his mother will not have as much negative influence over his opinion that some mothers have. He will see with his own eyes what you guys are like and form his own opinions.

If people ONLY want to look at what would benefit OC, we could easily argue it would benefit him to grow up near his father!

One could also argue it would benefit OC to grow up w/a "happier" "richer" mother and extended family (is the boyfriend a live-in? Unmarried=uncommited. Who will OC's male role models be?). Is one more "fair" than the other? To whom?? Too bad she didn't think about this before her affair?

Hello,
When my parents divorced and then my mom asked my Dad if we could move to another state. He said yes and that was the worst thing for us kids. I wish we have never moved because we barely saw him. We went from every week to holidays and summer break. I really thought that sucked and I wish that they asked us kids what we thought. Nobody wanted to move. Anyhow, that is just my story.

Dawn

I'm not suggesting it be taken lightly (not that I felt you accused me of that). But 4 years old is not OLD. My 21 year old daughter cannot remember when she lived with her father (we divorced when she was 6). She LITERALLY has no recollection of when we lived as "a family." To her, he never lived with her. EVER. And he still lives in the home she was born in.


I think that he will see that his "Mommy" is upset and angry. I think that he will see that she is angry with his "Daddy" and "Stepmom" (for lack of a better term). He may see that his Daddy is happy and develop a feeling of "I have to take care of my Mommy because she is upset." That won't do "Daddy" any good down the road.


Not trying to argue this...only trying to argue that if all parties WANT to make it work, they can. The bottom line is they have to WANT to make it work.


Again...I'm not arguing "fair." This situation has already gone beyond fair. But since I haven't shared my bias yet...I'm going to. I was married to a serial cheater. He left me for the other woman. He married her and they had a child a few years later.

I married a faithful loving and generous man, who happened to have ties to another state. We, eventually, packed up and moved my 3 children 3,000 miles from their father. At first, it looked like it might get ugly. Then my x decided..."fine; we'll make it work." And we did. While I remember that he was unfaithful, I focus on his generosity in letting me go and start a new life. I am grateful for that.

My children (all adults now) have often said how grateful they were to have led "normal" lives (ie...those not marked by 2 sets of rules, 2 sets of expectations, 2 different homes, and 2 sets of friends). Their friends, who were shuttled around based on some artificial schedule ordered by the court, have always envied my children their freedom.

If your (general YOUR) husband cheated on you, left you for the ow, married the ow and then prevented you (general YOU) from starting a new life in another place, in which you had ties (ie extended family), good job prospects, how would you (not specifically YOU), feel about that?

If you're the one whose been cheated on, should you be able to move, while the person who did the cheating is not? Or do we just say to the BS, "tough...you had children with this man, he trashed your life...and now you're just stuck." And if we aren't going to say that to the BS, can we really say it to the ow (even though I'd have been sorely tempted). Maybe the ow can provide a more stable home for the her child, if she's given the opportunity. I have no way of knowing that. Perhaps, she doesn't deserve a break because she's some kind of a sick psycho raving lunatic. I don't know. In general, however, I don't think that fighting over children is a good idea.

I know that it is popular to assume that the ow will go on to live an unstable and immoral life and worry about the poor influence she will have on her child. But, what about the mother who is a serial cheater; the one who causes a divorce in her own family? Should we castigate her and try to do our best to see that she fulfills our prophecy for her future, regardless of what it does to her children? Or do we, instead, offer a supportive environment (to the best of our abilities) and HOPE that she will get it right, given a free opportunity to do so? If the courts are inclined to let a child stay with their married/divorced mother, who cheats, why should the unmarried ow be held to a different standard? The only reason I can think of, is that we still want to punish the ow.

Of course my argument presupposes that a divorced BS should not be held hostage (geographically) based on her ws bad behavior. If you believe that NOBODY, under any circumstances, should be allowed to leave once they have children with another, then my arguments are moot.

I'm not sure I'm saying this well.

We don't have an OC in our family, although our son was not absolutely sure his youngest child was biologically his until they finally did the DNA test last summer.

His situation was this: His ex wanted to move the children to Texas when her BF got transferred in his job. Our son has always been a very involved father, and he said, "No, you are not taking my children that far away from me." He wasn't even considering the fact that she was also planning on leaving him stuck with the home that he bought for his children and her to live in.

She left the children with him and moved. Son filed for custody and won. It got nasty, because she claimed he should not have custody of the youngest based on not being the bio-dad. Too bad for her that DNA proved otherwise. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Had the children moved, we would all have been worried sick. Her BF (now H) works nights, and she likes to party, and we have since learned that she had often left the children at home alone while partying. She also is a serial cheater. I don't know if she is faithful to her current H, but our experience has been that if she's bored, or unhappy in some way, she goes out looking for OM. Also, there was the concern about abuse. In the past, S had to make it perfectly clear to her BF that he was not to raise a hand to his children. From what we now understand, there had also been some "knock-down, drag-out fights" between her and BF.

Also, there were issues with the kind of home she was providing. She loves dogs, but apparently does not love to clean up after them. When she moved out of the home S had provided for the children, S found piles of doggie poo all over the house, plus the stench was so bad that it would literally take one's breath. The kids just got back from visiting their mom, and the oldest one said that he was constantly cleaning up after the FIVE dogs she now has.

In short, the kids need a stable home, and she had proven that she would never provide one for them.

In general cases, I believe this: When both parents are actively and constructively involved in their children's lives, the children should always have access to both parents equally.

Yes, we do need to do what we can to make our own lives better, but when you have children, their needs should come first.

So, when the father is actively involved in his children's lives, the mother should not move the children away from him, and vice versa.

OK Lady, you've shared every cliched ow nightmare that many fear. I'm tracking you. I understand what you're saying. I know those kind of ow exist. But, is that really the "norm?" Or does it just give us some kind of comfort to believe that the ow is selfish, skanky, immoral, unstable and always will be?

My x had at least 4 ow, before settling on the last. She was 10 years younger than me. She broke up my family and turned my world upside down. My x married her. She became my children's stepmother. Should I have found some way to use the courts to keep my children away from her and my philandering x, or should I have behaved in generous manner, realizing she was going to be a part of my children's lives? My point Lady, is that we CANNOT keep our children away from everyone who we believe may have a bad influence on our children...because sometimes, it's the other parent who's the bad influence. However, we don't need to put our children in the midst of a power struggle. I don't think it's healthy FOR THE CHILD. No child should be raised in an atmosphere of anger and bitterness. NO CHILD. When we know that our actions are likely to create anger and bitterness, it is up to us to rise above it and let our generosity of spirit shine through. IOW, my x had the morals of an alley cat and I could certainly have carried a grudge against his new wife, but would my children be better people for it? Instead, my children watched four people learn to cooperate and build an unlikely alliance. We socialize for the sake of the children; we've shared their milestones together. It's true that I haven't asked my x for his input in raising the children BECAUSE of the distance AND because I didn't think he was the "best" person out there to illustrate integrity and selflessness. BUT, he has been an excellent example on accepting that his children deserved to have 4 parents who loved and supported them, even when only 2 of them were making the day-to-day decisions. SEEING a child is not the sum total of what is good for a child. There are other issues, such as giving that child "permission" to love non-biological parents without guilt and choosing of sides.

[color:"blue"]Lizbeth,

I say that you and your H need to work with the POJA(policy of joint agreement) on this situation. You have been a mother to this little boy for the time you have had him in your home. If your H wishes to keep the custody/visitation/whatever as it is right now, he has that right. This little boy is your H's son and the courts have seen it that way and given him his rights to his son. [/color]



BTM, You wrote:



[color:"blue"]It's not like this is just now coming up about the custody switching over to Lizbeth and her H. It was in the final court decision, right? Isn't this xow threatening to take Lizbeth's H's child away? So many times the fact that this is HIS child as well is over looked. Just like the "woman's right to choose" it affects the WH in many ways and he has no say. Well, Lizbeth's H has a say, and I think that she should stand by her H and his decision. I think they have every right to say no to the xow and the courts agree. Heck, if it was the WH, I can guarantee that the xow would say NO as well, maybe even faster that Lizbeth's H did. Lizbeth isn't the one ruining the xow's life. The xow did that all on her own. [/color]

Tigger~
So far NOBODY has answered my main question which was:

How would you feel if your h cheated on you, divorced you, remarried, had other children, and refused to grant you the right to start over with your life (holding you geographically hostage, IOW)?

My divorce decree said many things, which my x and I jointly decided to ignore. A decree is pretty much a "one-size" fits all agreement that does not "fit all." If the decree is the primary thing one has to fall back on in order to determine the "right-ness" of their decision, they probably aren't "right."

In reading the original post, I saw some vindictiveness (glee, and satisfaction that the ow was upset). I understand the hurt. I've been there, multiple times. I understand the anger. I've been there. But it's not healthy for the child to have a bitter parent, even if she was/is the ow and even if she (in everyone else's opinion) deserves it.

It's comforting to feel superior to the ow. I get that too. But at what price? When one parent "wins," a child loses. When both biological parents cooperate, a child wins. The other people involved should be supportive, but stay out of the decision making process, JMHO.

BeenThere, no one answered your question because that's threadjacking. I think it deserves it's own thread.

You are asking about your OWN situation, and God knows you deserve sympathy for what happened to you(!!), but it is NOT Lizbeth's situation.

I want to say that I am NOT an advocate for any OW But I am an advocate for a person wanting only the best for thier child.
Do you really think that the child will benefit from a financially stable mother?
Or will she be working so much that she may not pay enough attention to the child... will it help with all her family there to compensate?

I only speak on behalf of my own children If I really thought that they would benefit all around from going away with my spouse and living a better life I would be inclined to let them. I know it would prob kill me and I may just move as well but I only want my children to benefit and have the best opportunity in life.

I do not know what to say to you except that I would let the child go. I have not seen in your post were ow is a bad mother. I do not know the whole story but I am just expressing my opiniion. Please remember I do not normally side with any ow but in this case its the mother in her that I am siding with.

If she puts it all in a LEGAL document I say that is the best possible situation.

I listed our reasons for being especially concerned about our grandchildren's mother taking them out of state, and I know that our ex-daughter-in-law is not the norm as far as mothers go (she is loving to the children, but her own life choices were horrid for them), but my basic belief is still this:

If both parents are actively and constructively involved in their children's lives, neither parent should move the children so far away from the other parent as to prevent the other parent from being able to actively participate in his/her children's lives.

Also, children do not have four parents; they have two, although loving and kind stepparents can be great for them if their own parents can't be together. However, even the best stepparent cannot replace the child's natural parent...unless the child chooses. And, I don't see a child choosing that if the natural parent is loving and actively involved in the child's life.

As for holding the relocating parent "hostage" so he/she can't go on with his/her life...well, the child shouldn't be held hostage to being deprived of the other loving and actively involved parent because of some job offer or because Mom/Dad wants to live closer to Mom/Dad's family.

In our son's case, we didn't hold his ex-wife hostage because her boyfriend got a promotion and had to move. She moved anyway, and left the children with him. She had the choice...either stay and give her children the benefit and stability of having both parents in their lives or move with her new man. She made her choice, and the children are doing exceedingly well with their father and their new stepmother. They do talk to their mother almost every day because their dad bought a cellphone with nationwide calling especially for them to talk to her. Of course, they do miss their mother, but they are better off staying here.

Now, in our DD's case, I figure that she can move or live anywhere she wants to, because her ex hasn't bothered to see their son since January, and the last time he tried to call was on DGS's birthday in May. She wasn't home, but he didn't try to call again. And, he won't try to see their son anytime soon, either, because there's a warrant out for his arrest, as he hasn't paid any child support in over a year. He has currently left the state to avoid arrest. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the feedback. I wanted to comment about how OC would feel toward us by not letting OW move. I think some are under estimating what an important part a father plays in a childs life. My H is as important part as xOW is in OC's life. We are not worried at all about OC resenting us. He loves us and is happy with is when he is with us. He doesn't even want to leave. If he would be angry with anyone it would be OW putting her career before him. That's how I think he might look at it.

Lizbeth,

if i can throw my 2 cents worth in, i wouldnt let the OC leave with his mother either. I think the bond between the oc and his father is just as precious as the one he has with his mother and shouldnt be broken if at all possible. If she wants to go to pursue her career goals that is her choice. She knows the cost of doing that is that custody falls to you and your h. By the sound of it, you and your h have made your choice and that choice is to continue to actively parent the oc.

Apart from anything else, i wonder how the OC would feel if he was to move with his mother and access to you and your h were to become more restricted. It is not the same situation but i know when my parents divorced, my dad disappeared from our day to day lives. we saw him for maybe a day a month and i felt so hurt and rejected by that. Later we moved states and our contact got even less. I was 7 at the time so i dont underestimate the ability of young children to internalise external events in a negative way.

In my very humble opinion :-D i wouldnt let the OC go.

On another point, the bit about the OW claiming this is your revenge really got to me. Arghh! i get so sick of these OW's thinking it is all about them. It was all about them when they were screwing around with our partners, it was all about them when they decided to continue with the pregnancy. Visitation, custody and CS become ways to again make it all about them (i.e plainitive wailes of "i never realsied i would be raising our baby by myself..."). Well, i guess this is her time to wake up and smell the dirty diaper so to speak. Arghh! if you ever get the chance, slap her for me will you! (i am only kidding here, kinda)lol.

[color:"blue"]It seems to me that only ONE of the biological parents is causing this problem here. How would YOU feel if you were in Lizbeth's H's shoes, and the xow was wanting to take this little guy out of your life? I don't think I can say it enough, but they FOUGHT to be able to help parent this little boy, and 4 yo or not, he WILL remember being taken from that house!

As for saying that Lizbeth doesn't have a say, well she does if it affects her M, and it sounded to me like she WAS/IS supporting her H in his decision. Maybe the question should be, "Did the xow consult with Lizbeth's H BEFORE she went looking for another job, regardless of pay, that was 1000 miles away from this little boy's father?"

This situation with the OC is VERY different from a divorce. In your situation, there were no OC's. Your x married one of his ow, yes, but that was AFTER you were divorced, and the children from that marriage came after they were married. I'm not, by any means, trying to lessen what you've been through, but it is a totally different set of rules that most of the time are ignored mainly by the xow when the original couple are STILL married and the xow sees it as she's lost so what would it hurt to force issues such as custody, visitation, CS you name it, they pull every trick in the book that they can. If anything, the xow should respect Lizbeth and her H as a UNITED front and that they share in EVERYTHING! She should have thought of that BEFORE the A/OC. And, that's just MHO [/color]

yeah! what tigger said! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

With all respect Jenny, I don't think people want to consider/answer the question because it takes the ow out of the equation and that causes discomfort. It's easy to be cliched and self-righteous when there is an easily identifiable "bad guy."


I'm not "asking" about my OWN situation. I've already lived it. I have 3 happy, healthy successful ADULT children who were not raised by their father. Their father and I made the situation work. My children's step-parents made the situation work. It was a choice to be cooperative. My x was not a deadbeat dad. He was not a bad dad, before or after I left.

It would be nice to live in a land where every ow "thought" BEFORE she acted, but it isn't reality. How long, exactly, do we punish them...and by extension, their children? It's nice to believe that the bond developed at the age of four will be sufficient to insure that the children will always love and appreciate us, but even that isn't a given. Look at the number of children who hate both their parents for evidence of how tenuous that particular bond can be.

I'm not on a crusade here and I don't mean to imply that there is NEVER a reason to stick to the terms of a court agreement. I am saying that, IMHO there are times to throw out the agreement and make other choices.

And $63 and some change could hardly keep a guppy alive for a month. If oc mother can provide better, let her. She won't even notice the $64 she isn't getting. I am, personally, appalled that this is the level of child support this child is receiving and everyone here (apparently) thinks that's just grand because the ow is the one suffering and she "deserves" it. Surely as supportive BS, we can't afford to let the ow have a higher standard of living than we enjoy, now could we?

I think this might be at the heart of the original post. How else do you explain the "sweet deal"? How many of you would "consider" giving up a child for a "sweet deal?"

The question doesn't require its own thread. Its meant to get you to think critically before answering.