Eibrab & Carnation,

I feel sorry for the two H's in your lives because they can't seem to see what they are risking losing. And from your posts I can see that both of them are pushing the envelopes with you. Some people just don't get it and they may never get it. Caring, loving, committed spouses are something to be treasured, not tested and taken for granted.

Eibrab, please do not let your fears guide you in any of this. H is the one that should have fears and he is not smart enough at this point to realize it. What, if anything, could be worse than what you have already endured and suffered? Over the course of our discussions here at MB I have read the things you have seen and done and they have never failed to reinforce my original impression of you. The strong willed independent and self sufficient "Lonesome Dove" rancher. You still are that person and you always will be. Fear is for someone who is less capable and has less to offer in life.

Carnation you also have so much to offer it absolutely astounds me as to what your H is thinking. As is the case with all of us, you can not let your H's actions change who you are in any way. Changing to meet the expectations of someone who has shown a severe character flaw only lessens our own self esteem and lowers our own integrity. Respect yourself always, H will see this and he is the one in need of a look in the mirror.

Not posting much lately, been really busy and happy doing yard work, planning DD's wedding(getting better there), fishing and tying flies. Haven't had the patience in two years to sit and tie. In the last month I have turned out over 100 for myself and friends. Hooray!!! Peace of mind has finally set in a little!

Hoping and praying for a little of that for both of you to come soon!

duk

P.S. Eibrab, Trout love to eat those nasty dragon fly nymphs. Get revenge for the goldfish and put a trout in the pond once. Just get the goldfish out first, trout like them too!

E and duk --- thank you sooooo much for being here for me.... your kind words mean alot to me...

Just for the record, please do not get the impression that because my h drives a truck... I am living in a trailer or something...not the case ... I walked away from my first marriage in very good position $$ wise...material things and $$ mean nothing to me, never have... I am emtionally driven.... hence, the problem

Him being gone all the time has taken such a toll on me and our marriage - if you can call this a marriage... now problems (huge problems) with my grandson and his mother - my dd....

Dear God - Please give me strength and a little wisdom to make the right choices.... help me dear god... this all scares me so.....and thank you for directing me here to this kind and caring wise posters....

P.S. and can you let Joey win tonight on Dancing ???

thanks tons E and duk.... I await more wisdom....

I liked Billy Ray.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Honest.

And, my dear friend Carnation, I LIVE a trailer park life in a 5 bedroom house because of the actions of others...

Say UGH in sympathy with me..hehe

I have a CDL here with doubles and triples.. I got it years ago to prove a point to the men here who said that I could not. If I could tie a fly, I'd be quite a catch !

I'm still thinking Carnation.. don't give up on me ..

Hugs,

Eibrab

oh yeah --- I loved Billy Ray 2 !!!

My h has showed me how to start and bring the truck to a complete stop if need be... that backing looks like it is a bit tricky though !!!

Thanks for listening.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Eibrab,

You are and always will be quite a catch even if you haven't felt the need to learn to tie flies! I'm sure if you decided to you would be as good at that as anything else you have already learned to do. A CDL??? You never cease to amaze me! Okay, so you, PB and Carnation can load up the Semi, hit the road with everything you need and then some, and come to Nevada and visit, right? PB the sailor can navigate and you can do the driving with Carnation doing the braking.

On the way you can judge a few horse shows, climb some rocks with PB, umpire a few games to make spending money, and shoot your meals with the bow. What else is there you need? As I keep saying, you are as self sufficient as anyone I know and should never fear anything or anyone.

Yay ~ a road trip ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Oh goodness, does that sound like a fun adventure or what ...

Hey duk - when's the wedding ?? Might as well plan our trip around that !! you know, moral support and all....

(now, do I hit the yellow button or the red button....hold on gals.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> )

OhMyGoodness! Yellow or red ? I suppose I must be a frustrated truck driver at heart because that made me spew my diet Pepsi all over this keyboard...


Dear, dear Carnation..I spent today sitting on a tractor baling hay. I shouldn't have helped him at this time, but I love it. The sunshine, the tan.. well, I love it.

Except the attitude that comes with it from the men... then again, I can take any attitude when my tan is smoking hot!

So, I spent most of the day contemplating an answer to your post from yesterday..

I have no answer. Me, the Queen of words and thoughts.. I have no explaination for us.

I am a big believer in "signs".. I truly think that God is with me, even though I fear not at times. I see Him in the butterflies, the hawk that circled me today (fear of God anyone? LOL), and the wildflower that suddenly grew where I walk everyday and was not there yesterday.

There's got to be a reason for this...and an answer.

HUG,

Eibrab

Bless you E or, I am guessing it is B.... Bless you for thinking about me and my situation... that warms my heart..

I agree with the tan thing... so much for all that sun protection... if I am having a good hair day and I am tan... well, it makes me feel much better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Not too long ago, over on GQ II, I asked a question about trying to set the OW up... since my h is on the road mostly, and I believe they are in contact - pay phones, calling cards - I was wondering if I somehow could call OW from a pay phone and see if she would take a collect call from my h !!!

Since I can not even get either one of them to admit to knowing each other, much less the LTA - IF she accepts the call - there is proof... a start.... if she doesn't - she may have not taken the bait...

Not knowing... not having any where to start from or end at... is driving me crazy !!!

What do y'all fine people think of that desperate plan ???

Carnation..

I suppose if we focus on the title of this thread, you'd be doing the exact opposite in this plight.

If she accepts, she may be being a good samaritan (ick! I know, but I'd most likely accept a collect call as they are so rare), so therein you learn nothing..

Or if she doesn't take the "bait".. you've got nothing again...but more worry.

So, from the outside looking in, how do you win with this plan? There has to be a more concrete way to ease your mind or gain the knowledge you seek.

Hmmm.. I am thinking for you.

I am going to bed tonight with you on my mind and a prayer for peace to find you tonight.. you are such a delightful lady with such a beautiful heart. You deserve so much more.

It is a shame that you can't pick a winning celebrity dancer, though..

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Eibrab

Carnation,

I think your intuition is enough to make you want to sit down with H and talk about your feelings. Confirming what you perceive and believe will just make it worse to deal with. Sometimes too much knowledge is worse than not enough. My only lasting regret with the EX is going up to that motel at Tahoe and confirming with my own eyes what I already knew. It only made things worse down the road for me.

Talk to the man in a straight forward and no holds barred discussion and tell him what you are feeling and how, if he cares, he can make you feel safer and more secure. We men are not all that bright in reality and we just don't see the things you do nor do we feel them in the same way. Think dense and you got us! Sometimes we don't get it when you put out those subtle messages that you need help or that you are concerned. Telling us point blank is the only sure fire way to get our attention. I think I have finally seen that this is uncomfortable for women but at the same time necessary to really get thru to us men.

I know I have missed some messages lately and it makes me feel horrible. I think I missed something really important to Eibrab and I wish she would open up and talk to me again soon.

Things are busy here and I am really anxious to leave on my annual fishing trip to Oregon. Good times with good friends and a week away from work! I hope all of you have something special to look forward to soon also.

duk

A very big hug to you all..

Carnation... are you ok, my friend? I know this site does not allow for private messages..you've been on my mind and in my prayers.

Eibrab

Journal

It is 3.00 a.m, as I write this, very quiet, the window looks out on a black sky.

I have not done a journal entry in so long – it is making me blink. My life is so ordinary really. A series of small moments, the late night run finished a couple of hours ago, the long walk along the water afterwards with the dog.

I often think of the people I have met on this thread and come to know well. It invariably makes me smile. Not sure why, but I always smile maybe because it is such a fantastic thing that one’s most inner thoughts can be shared and truly understood by people you have never met face to face and live thousands of miles away.

When I read Dukhuntr, Eibrab’s, Toni’s or Carnation’s posts and they are happy I am happy if they are sad, I am sad. Our emotions are like gaffer tape, they bind us together.

On many levels I feel lighter. All the running is making me almost twig like but mostly my heart feels light and free. I think I have let go.

It has taken two years but I finally changed our home phone message, wiping off midnight’s voice. For a long time I could not bear the idea, knowing, it was the only way I could hear it when I wanted to.

The Japanese have a word called Kaizin which means that even small changes can have a big impact. Now, my voice answers.

I just finished a wonderful book called “Mastering Life's Energies: Simple Steps to a Luminous Life at Work and Play” by Maria Nemeth.

It has many wonderful quotes but the one I like the best is

“For everything that has been I say thank you and for everything that will be I say yes”

I am not sure of the spelling of the chap’s name, who said it and I have already lent my copy to a friend but it is perhaps the best thought I have heard in a long time.

Walking by the water tonight, I thought life is such a privilege. that even when it is not exactly as we want it .it is all about dancing with what is ..

Carnation, Eibrab you two are particularly in my prayers, I know how difficult it is just to carry on sometimes ...

Big Big Big Hugs to All

Hello Paradise,

I do miss your posts, I still look for them regularly. It's become almost a spiritual thing for me to read them and try to see and feel all the thought and sincere care you put into them. I know they have carried me thru many times of anguish and self pity and made me think of other ways to deal with my problems. I know you have helped many others like me in the same way. Just by being yourself and sharing the way you think with us. For this I will always remember you and will always be thankful I found you when I needed you the most.

It's been over two years since my D now and I think I finally have a good handle on my emotions. I don't think I will ever completely heal but it's down to a nuisance now rather than a wound. I watched a video today by Dr. Harley that Pepperband posted and it really hit home for me what has made this so difficult for me to "get over". The EX has never shown one ounce of remorse or guilt over what she did. The good doctor's theory is that forgiveness does not come for a BS until the WS gives "just compensation". Mainly this comes in the form of regret and remorse. Didn't happen for me or you and I don't believe anymore it ever will. Nor do I believe I have forgiven anymore either.

Given the results of my efforts so far to start a relationship with someone else I can see too that I need a much longer time to shut off that part of my heart that will forever belong to the EX. After 28 years and two wonderful children I have been unable to just seal that off as she has seemingly done so easily. After all the therapy, quiet thought, soul searching and plain old nightmares all I have come to believe is that she just got bored and someone else offered some excitement that she felt was missing. I really don't believe anymore that there was anything I did or didn't do to cause all of this. I wish I could have come to this conclusion two years ago. I can see now though that I needed to make this journey in my own way, as each of us has. Each personality deals with this trauma in their own individual way. Some spiritual, some more emotional and physical.

Having travelled this road to recovery, I'm absolutely sure I never want to travel it again! I don't think I could cope with that level of hurt a second time. I worry more now that I will never be able to trust and love someone in the same complete way as I did with my EX. Until I believe myself capable of that level of comittment again, I shouldn't be out there looking for anybody new either.

The one good thing that has come from all of this is that I feel a lot more compassion for others in this situation now. Compassion for both the BS's and the WS"s. No one wins in an A. Everyone gets hurt in one way or another. Someday I hope to hear that someone in our little group has hit the "MB Lotto" and can finally say that their marriage has recovered. It would do my heart good just to hear it once.

You and EIbrab and Carnation are my hopes for this. Someday and somehow one of you will be able to come here and tell the rest of us it's happened. I will be hoping all of you eventually can.

Duk - I hope you know that I think the world of you... but, may I just give my honest opinion of the above --

Forgiveness is a gift that you give to yourself...

Harboring animosity towards another person is just too much negative weight to carry around....

Please take this in the manner that it is meant to be given.... certaintly not trying to lecture you.... but, this is something I feel very strongly about and try to interject it where I can !!!

(((( duk, Eibrab, PB ))))


carnation

Hi Carnation!

I don't think I am carrying a bunch of animosity or anger anymore, I just don't believe I really have forgiven completely and without reservation. I felt like the video "spoke" to me while watching and listening. It made me really sit back and think about what and how I feel towards the EX.

I believe that for me to truely forgive she would have to come to me and show some regret and remorse that she has never once shown. All I ever heard was that she would never regret her relationship with the OM. Nowadays I don't mind that statement near as much because her relationship with this OM has cost her and the rest of us so much it should be worth not regretting.

I honestly thank you for your concern and good advice! I just don't think I am capable of following your advice completely. I'm sure it's something to do with my own OCD that is inheirent in being an accountant. That and my own sense of what integrity is and should be. I am working on and gaining ground on my ability to just live and let live with her. I know my level of care about her is next to non-existent so that is a start.

I don't think you are capable of saying anything that would sound like a lecture by the way. Friendly helpful suggestions- sure, a lecture? Never.

Thanks,

duk

Hi duk... glad you understand what I was trying to get across in my own way...

I am always reminded of a story about my x mil... for years and years she held deeply onto a dark, deep *grudge* she had with another woman (one of her former friends)... I mean she was consumed with hatred for this former friend... seemed like it almost ate her alive and she was proud of holding onto this grudge for sooooo long..

One day my dd and I ended up at this former friend's home... well, the lady had aboslutely NO idea that my x mil was still harboring all this hate for her... none at all... there she was sitting on a swing, in the shade, enjoying a lemonade and also - enjoying life to the fullest !!! almost not a care in the world and it showed...

Back at the il's house -- hatred was all around...

Anyway -- that day was a light bulb moment for me... listening to the mil go on and on in her negative way and seeing the sweet little lady (ex friend) enjoying the day to the fullest, not having the slightest idea that there even was a grudge between the two....

And - I know matters of the heart grow deeper and this may not truly apply here -- but I know you see what I am trying to say...

And, thanks so much for the kind words....

Carnation..

Perfect story, my friend. Perfect.

HUG,

Eibrab

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />


((( Eibrab )))

Journal July 20th

Sigh, I sat at a ball game tonight with a girl friend, my mind a million miles from the field. A waste of one very good seat because I found it impossible to keep my mind on the game and eventually left early. I was very, very glum company. I could only come up with one joke the entire night a very feeble one at that “..hmm I think my lesson from all this will be “Love Makes You Stupid”

It has been a trying week, unbeknownst to me, Midnight had signed some months back, a “fraudulent” deal which effectively stripped virtually all the key assets of our company and sold them to a competitor. I got wind of it by a chance email sent to him by mistake - at the wrong email address, a few days ago…just in time to stop it at considerable expense.

After reading the email, I stared for a long time at the screen, with the exact sensation; I would imagine you would get from being wacked, upside the head with a two by four. I could not breath for a full two minutes, it felt like all the air was just sucked out of me.

Sometimes people change to the point they are no longer recognizable.

At first he lied about it, and when finally, he admitted what was going on to me. I found I could not come up with anything to say - some situations are beyond words. I was just speechless. After about four minutes of complete silence.. I said .. “the only question I have .. Is what kind of person are you becoming?” I walked away. In that moment, any tender hope I have been resolutely harboring that he would snap out of it … extinguished. He is not someone I know or care to know.

So much “ …for dancing with what is” .yet perhaps in the most difficult moments .when the steps get trickier and your balance is at its most precarious there is the greatest opportunity for grace. I am not sure really. I feel far from graceful right now ..mostly sad… hurt .. and … really tired.

I have not laughed much at all this week. Right now, I so want to laugh .. so I will…

Last weekend, prior to all this blowing up, Midnight asked to see the dog, (only the second time since Christmas) and then brought him back, all irritated and indignant a few hours later. Apparently, the dog had dragged his back end across the cushions of one of Midnight’s pristine new white linen sofas, leaving a very long brown smear.

Dogs can express themselves quite elegantly at times. I am not sure exactly how that would translate in human speech, but when I lie in bed tonight waiting to fall asleep I think I will lift up one of those floppy ears and whisper the question. “What were you trying to tell Daddy?

Paradise,

I was very pleased to see you post again, until I read why. Seems our WS's have even more in common now. Making unilateral financial decisions and then hiding them must make them feel in control or something. All I know is it is just one more example of the character flaw that has surfaced for both of them.

There is a well respected businessman here that I used to hunt and fish with. He is from a family that has been in this area for several generations and is just a very grounded and down home person. His family has become wealthy by selling off what used to be the family farm/ranch to developers and he is one of my favorite people to listen to and get advice from. One of his favorite quotes is "if a husband/wife can cheat on and lie to their spouse they will cheat and lie in business".

It seems to me that once a person has chosen to give up one of the few things in life no one can take, their integrity, they seem to be able to rationalize all manner of behavior. I liken it to opening Pandora's box. For my EX, she opened the box when she hid her brother's thevery from me and let me pay off the credit card debt he stole from us. From there why bother pretending to be something you are not anymore, right????

I know you will be as patient and forgiving here as you have been thru all of this, but maybe, just maybe, it's time to really protect yourself from any other financial surprises?

And give Blue a big hug for me, he knew the best response to this whole mess was to show exactly what the whole thing smelled of!!!!

duk