Anyone ever get queasy feelings in their stomach as little recollections sneak into your head? Seeing things you didn't see before; realizing that what looked and seemed normal was nothing more than a house of mirrors. Or a house of cards.

For instance...

The behaviors and faults you were accused of having, that turned out to be your spouse's behaviors and faults, not yours. The things your spouse responded enthusiastically to but that were all lies - that your spouse really was NOT enthusiastic about, and thus generated years of resentment. That you didn't know about.

And you didn't catch on because you had never even heard of narcissism.

Realizing that without doing or saying anything, people could fall in and out of grace with your spouse, and your spouse's family. Not only you, but other people too. Who then became victims of "gang warfare" with the whole family turned against them. Just because. You didn't know what to do when you saw it happen to other people. And, when it happened to you, nothing was ever wrong when you asked. You couldn't identify, fix, or apologize for anything because everything was denied. Until later when they needed some ammunition.

And you didn't catch on because you had never even heard of narcissism.

You began to select shoes that were meant for walking on eggshells.

The realization that your spouse was in competition with you for things you didn't even care about - or know about. You thought it was odd that your spouse seemed to copy everything you did, but you knew you felt like your boundaries were being invaded in a way you could hardly grasp. Or describe. And if you ever happened to do something your spouse had done first, without realizing your spouse had "laid claim" to it, you were chastised and accused of being a copy cat.

And you didn't catch on because you had never even heard of narcissism.

That any time you took care of your own feelings, you were being selfish, but when you focused on your spouse's feelings, you were compromising yourself and being a doormat.

That boundaries didn't exist, or they moved. Like being in a house of mirrors, the experience was always random. One day it was about taking your lunch and leaving you without one; another day it was about wanting to play loud music when you were on the phone. Or wanting SF when you were running out the door, late for a meeting at work. It was always your selfishness causing your spouse to be denied or deprived of something he wanted, that was frequently at your expense.

And it was always about him. But you didn't catch on to any of it, because you had never even heard of narcissism.

That you should have seen red flags all over the place when your spouse said he was a "chameleon" who could adapt himself to any situation, and be whomever someone wanted him to be. This did not mean he fit in well - it meant you'd never know who he really was.

And you didn't realize that it was inevitable that your usefulness would wear off; that the things you were once chosen and valued for, would become the objects of resentment. Because one day your spouse would discover that people can't achieve things through association with other people; and that other people are either reminders of what is missing in their lives - or mirrors, that reflect back what they don't want to face in themselves.

But you didn't catch on to any of it, because you had never even heard of narcissism.

That the IC who spent considerable time with both of you - and the MC who also did - were not BOTH wrong in their assessments of your spouse. That just because you aren't an alcoholic doesn't mean you can't be in denial! And just because you aren't a WS doesn't mean you can't be in the fog.

AND YOU NEVER NOTICED YOU WERE DOING THIS STUFF. And maybe the IC's and MC's were right after all. So you read and read and read... and cried and cried as recognition sunk in.

And when the only question left was/is how to live with what a fool you were. But also realizing how insideous narcissism is, and how hard to detect. All the behaviors that look so normal, that could be normal in another situation. Now you're a fool all over again, this time in the minds of everyone else, because what you've finally realized is not believed by anyone else.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

You are right on target about the behaviors looking so normal that could be normal in another situation. It's a matter of degree...on a continuum. I believe that we all have narcissitic moments. Times that we want what we want when we want it...and who cares about the other person! But, we don't necessarily act on those feelings by manipulating and using others constantly.

Think about how it would be to constantly live with a 2 year old in an adult's body! You've experienced years of what that's been like! 2 year olds can be charming one moment, and belligerent and rageful the next. Over the exact same situation! They're self-centered...all about "me"! Poor boundaries, etc. That's a narcissist!

As much as you feel like a fool, I think you should be congratulated that you have been able to recognize the behavior at any point in your life! As you noted, it's insideous and hard to detect. His family probably doesn't recognize it. They've been dealing with it even longer, and were probably the source of its beginnings. There's always a "pay-off" for maintaining status quo. In addition, others probably haven't been exposed as often as you to the inconsistencies in your spouse's words and behaviors. It's easier to lie and conceal when there's less exposure.

My heart goes out to you. I'm sure that you tried so hard be a good spouse, and wondered why you always fell short of the mark. But, once you've done your grieving....felt like a fool, etc. LET IT GO!! Your spouse has had more than enough control over your self-esteem!! You deserve to go on and have a good life! Don't let him take anymore from you!

Thank you for having the courage to post on this forum. You have educated a whole lot of people on here today. I have no doubt that others will benefit from your sharing about "narcissism". You are a courageous woman. I hope that you heal and find peace of mind. You deserve it!

Hi Deja
Long time no talk!!! LOL

So is your D final?? You sound down in this post and the deja I remember was never really down and out,are you doing ok??

I have enrolled and start school monday,I am scared to death.I am feeling strong however from months back when we use to chat.

Your post was enlightening to me,thanks for pouring out your heart and soul it really does help others.

Would love to hear from you and get an update on how everything is going,I dont come on the forum much anymore but had a question and this of course was the first place I came.

Take care.

Hi Ginger,

You've got mail!

Thanks hearts, for affirming that maybe I'm not the crazy one. I still question it, would you believe, and have never in my life been so unable to sort out reality. It's like living in a parallel universe where so many things look one way, but are really another.

Anyway, I found writing about it to be theraputic. It was the first time I tried to sit down and put together so many aspects of this. Any one of these things would be no big deal - but the whole is greater than the sum of the parts, and that's a hard thing to explain or justify.

[color:"red"] (( [/color] [color:"blue"] Deja Vu [/color] [color:"red"] ))
[/color] I don't know anything about narcissism but wanted to give you a hug. Your post was very thoughtful and well-written, and as you said, I hope it was theraputic for you to do it. You will get through this, I am sure. You have always seemed to be a resilient person to me.

So, I have a question for you all now... that my reading has not uncovered.

What's the difference between:
1. A Sociopath
2. A Narcissist
3. A Borderline Personality

...if any?

I can't tell you the difference, but I sure can tell you that they all have ONE THING IN COMMON - "It's ALL about THEM". ABUSE of your mate. Abuse of anything and anyone that they WANT to.
I've been in your shoes. Felt like trash after my Divorce coz I thought it was all 'MY' fault. Yeah right. After I began Divorce Recovery on my own, I realized that - just like the Germans in World War II were LIED TO, BRAINWASHED, & ABUSED by Hitler, how SIMILAR my now Ex-Wife was like him. I believe I am accurate in saying your EX is just like them also - it's all about THEM and screw anyone else, their feelings, or anything else - it's just all about what the ABUSER wants.
I'm sooooooooooooooo glad I no longer have to live that way - with their thumb GRINDING ME DOWN - no, I stand up and have taken back charge of my own life and my own actions without having HER slam me for every little thing that was not in exact accordance of what she WANTED.
It's all about THEM. Just remember that - how incredibly SELFISH they are.
Difference in the above-mentioned three things?
Probably not - the end result is ALWAYS THE SAME - so there is no difference - just a play on words.
JMHOAE,
SDLOM

Deja

Sorry you have been through all this. Ive been there, and I also never heard of a narcissist.

Our MC said at one point in our sessions that my X was a psychopath. Even then it didnt hit me. I thought a psychopath was a term that people just threw arounfd jokingly, you know? like.. "yeah, watch out for him he's a psychopath"

It wasnt until the middle of the divorce proceedings that I was taking an abnormal psychology class in college that I found out a psychopath was an actual medical diagnosis, and it frightened me when I read that chapter and found it was a textbook detail of my husbands life. I was truly frightened and still am 2 years post divorce. These people are dangerous if they dont get their way. They may play by the rules for a time, but when the rules dont suit them they make their own. That is why at 50 I am in college full time to get myself on stable ground. I cant depend on alimony to see me through, that's a game that I dont expect he'll continue to play.

I am in the middle of house repairs, so I dont have acess to my text right now to tell you the differences but basically a narcissist is an extremely selfish person who has no regards for the feelings of others, they lack a conscience, the next level would be a psychopath/sociopath who breaks the rules of society ("socio") and laws to have things their way also with no regards to others feelings or property. A sociopath usually starts out in childhood as a bully or a juvenile delinquent. They frequently torture or harm animals. Run away, they never change. If I had known my husband when we were younger I would have never married him. By the time I met him his chameleon skills were very strong

Im not sure I remember what borderline personality disorder is but it is something a little different.

Ill try to get that book out.

Take care,
Dawn

I had a long post which I lost when I sent the link for the NPD traits above. I typically refer to it after a conversation with X. I had a bad one yesterday.
The key quote "you will never feel good after a conversation with a narcissist".

Deja - Thanks for posting... I too didn't know about narcissism or any other PD. After months of my sister hearing what was going on in my M - she gave me the internet info from Sam Vaknin's site. Oh my gosh, I saw my WH actions in so much of what Sam wrote. My WH may not be a full blow clinical narcissist - but, he has very strong tendancies. Yes, he definately is a cameleon. He puts everything into compartments and justifies it all in his mind.

I was thinking about our early relationship - and realized I changed so much about myself for him to please him. And 13 years later what did it get me???? And now that I am resorting back to my old self doing what please me - he hates me for trying to have a life w/o his drama.

He's lost control of me and that just infuriates him. His selfishness wants me to love him and be a "good wife" while he remains a dog..NO...I won't do it anymore..I won't as you said be a doormat.



EXACTLY...Every word that he uses to betrate me - isn't me at all - it's HIM...but, he can't wipe the fog from the mirror to see himself so he lashes out at me.

I haven't filed for D yet..It will happen.. at this point I'm not ready to give up my "lifestyle" so I have just closed the door on his drama. W/O intense IC/MC he will never be a husband/ to me or anyone else.

Hugs - we all will get thru this - it just takes understanding what we are dealing w/so we know how to react...

Dawn,


You are so right. I have this paranoid (maybe!) fear that there is a reason H is trying to access my personal records, ignored his promise to not try to find my new house and not only found my address, but also looked up the records to find out what I paid for it. I have installed a security system. Not sure why - he's made no threats, but I feel that his security is threatened by our D actions and I don't trust what he will do.

I'm with you on the alimony. I have decided to sever all connections of anything from him that I can. He has already gone back on a couple of things and decided to hold them over my head. He thinks he has leveraging power over me right now. To which I say - and he'll find out when all the paperwork is done - forget it, I don't want that anymore. He's also throwing around this idea of "disclosure" - that he is entitled to my personal records. My lawyer said, yes he's entitled to this, but you can get his too. I said, is any of this germaine to the contents of our D issues? NO! It is not. So I told my lawyer I will not release any of it - it is not relevant and therefore I will not do it.


Great - I'm looking forward to hearing more about this.

No wonder I'm having trouble sorting these out.

You are right - always about them. What has been hard for me is that they twist it to look like it's about you, and blame you, but the reason they're doing that is because anything that IS about you, takes away from them. And they can't stand that. I can't tell you how many times I was talking about something and H took personally something that wasn't even remotely about him. Astounding!

Wow! That's perfect. I must have know that intuitively. That's why I finally told my lawyer to tell H no more contact - I knew that everytime I talked to H I ended up feeling crummy and confused about the issues.

I hope you don't end so far down the path of confusion and loss of self-confidence that I've gone while you (like me) keep your lifestyle. I hope you CAN close the door on his drama - I couldn't. I was not even able to see it clearly until I was gone because the reality of our lives was turned upside down all the time. Oddly enough I'm not the one who initiated the split. I guess not odd at all - narcissists become disillusioned with people who no longer save them, or whose usefulness has run out.

ALso, the things I've read say that narcissism is rarely treated successfully. IC and MC don't work for these people generally. Because they would have to admit there was something wrong with them, and that's counter to what they are in the first place. I suppose a person who is not a full blown narcissist - who could face his own shortcomings - might be able to overcome it. But the personal failings of a narcissist have been associated so long with intense shame, that the narcissist can't break through the shame, and the behaviors they've developed to counter it all.

So, good luck to you with this. I really hope it works for you.

I was on that path and lost all self esteem etc, BUT I see very clearly now that there was NOTHING I could have done to avoid his behaviour nor is there anything I can do to help him get well. It took me a long time and many tears, etc. to realize this BUT w/the support of friends, family I'm better. I don't allow his actions to "get to me" anymore.

The only isse that still grates me is - when I go out w/friends or alone and he betrates me and then doesn't talk for days. Yet, he has been out w/many MOW/OW and is still continueing his actions - the typical double standard. It's hard to live w/that..

I'm desperately trying to build a life w/o him and yet he keeps trying to drag me back in but only part way. WHY?????
I don't 100% care anymore who he's with - since I know it will never stop - so why does he care what I do??? I can't grasp that - I NEVER question him yet he's always questioning me - WHY?? Is this yet another PD?? Insecurity???



WH has admitted on rare occasions (only when he sees me slipping away) that he "has a problem". It's only when he's backed into a wall will he face his demon - yet it only last for a few day or less.

Because I know this - I will survive it. I am so much stronger and "My give a damn's busted"...When you know what your dealing w/it's easier when you know they are sick it's easier. You know it's all smoke and mirrors. It just took me a long time to get here and I won't slip back to blaming myself or expecting him to change.

I realize I have NOTHING to offer him. He has used me but for some odd reason he won't let go of me either. WHY.. I true narcissist would be done and gone - that's another reason why I think he only has strong tendancies and isn't a full blown on.

HUGS

OK, I'm hearing mixed messages here - you're still struggling to understand him, struggling to break free, still affected by his attempts to drag you back in. Been there done that, so I've just gotta say, please stay aware, be careful, and be strong.


Not necessarily, A narcissist needs to get whatever it is that builds that person up. If controlling you is important to him, that will be what he doesn't want to give up. Or the illusion of failure in front of other people if the marriage fails. Or... fill in the blanks. With any of these disorders, they are going to play out differently with different people - the underlying thing is it's all about them.

Deja and others-

I can relate to what you are saying so much. My mother was narcassistic BPD and I went through the wringer with her. She's dead now but I finally realized why I was so unhappy in my first marriage- just like her, everything was always about him. His career, what he wanted to do, how he felt. I'm not sure he was NPD or BPD but only selfish beyond belief.

I was in a recovery group for adult children of women with BPD for three years and mentored alot there. IMO, they can never get well......

I'm married to a wonderful guy now who puts my needs first- and it's wierd, no one has ever put my needs first except him and my grandmother who loved me as no other.

Thank GOD that you survived these experiences, I know I do!