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But he himself refers to those as lovebusters, for purposes of discussion. That is the point, I believe, JL was trying to make. Perhaps it is, but entitling an entire chapter "What is Marital Abuse?" tells me that Harley makes no bones about LBs being abuse. ~ZP
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mineownself, huh? The issue is not that anyone "violated MB principles," but the very inappropriate, cavalier use of the label "abuser" to define someone who had an angry outburst on D-day. It has now been bastardized to include "emotional unavailibility." That, my friend, is a witch hunt.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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But he himself refers to those as lovebusters, for purposes of discussion. That is the point, I believe, JL was trying to make. Perhaps it is, but entitling an entire chapter "What is Marital Abuse?" tells me that Harley makes no bones about LBs being abuse. ~ZP Let's remember that he entitled a whole book Lovebusters. He didn't entitle it "Marital Abuse," even though some seem to be overly fond of the term abuse. That is the term he apparently prefers and I can see why.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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mineownself, huh? The issue is not that anyone "violated MB principles," but the very inappropriate, cavalier use of the label "abuser" to define someone who had an angry outburst on D-day. It has now been bastardized to include "emotional unavailibility." That, my friend, is a witch hunt. Right back at you with the huh? I responded to what you said to me. Your post to me quoted above makes no sense in context of anything I've said. Why are you posting to me "oh please...the witch-hunt is over" when you're clearly saying what you mean by "witch-hunt" has nothing whatsoever to do with anything I've said?
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Perhaps he coined them lovebusters, because he knew it would be ludicrous to lump common variety lovebusters, ie: annoying habits, selfish demands, independent behavior into the same pot as wife beating.
The cavalier, overly eager use of it in these circumstances simply dimishes the very real gravity of true abuse situations. Using this loosy-goosy standard of "abuse" one could conceivably label farting [an annoying habit] as "abuse." We need to come back down to earth here, people.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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mineownself, huh? The issue is not that anyone "violated MB principles," but the very inappropriate, cavalier use of the label "abuser" to define someone who had an angry outburst on D-day. It has now been bastardized to include "emotional unavailibility." That, my friend, is a witch hunt. Right back at you with the huh? I responded to what you said to me. Your post to me quoted above makes no sense in context of anything I've said. Why are you posting to me "oh please...the witch-hunt is over" when you're clearly saying what you mean by "witch-hunt" has nothing whatsoever to do with anything I've said? Do you want to try reading my post again, then? Because your post made no sense at all.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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I believe GHNL has counted a load of uses of the term abuse by Harley. Furthermore, you say that Harley doesn't use the term abuse, he uses "abusive strategies" and calls them LBs. But, let's contineu reading from the chapter "What is Marital Abuse?": Any one of the three Love Busters qualifies as an abusive attept to resolve conflicts, but they tend to appear in a certain escalating order. The first to appear is usually selfish demands--one spouse tells the other what to do. If that doesn't get the job done, disrespectful judgments often take their place--one spouse tries to impose his or her way of thinking on the other spouse in an effort to eventually force compliance. And if that doesn't work, angry outbursts are the final and most abusive step toward gaining control--punishing the other spouse until compliance is attained. I want you to get what you need from each other because that's essential for a happy and fulfilling marriage. But these three abusive strategies will not help you. In fact, they will make getting what you want less likely. And if you use these Love Busters to try to resolve your conflicts, you wil lose your love for each other. One of my greatest hurdles in helping couples overcome abuse is for them to identify and understand it. When I try to persuade spouses to stop being abusive toward each other, I run into the same roadblock almost every time. The perpetrator of abuse usually does not recognize it for what it is. I often hear the shocked reaction, "I'm not being abusive--it's my spouse who's being abusive to me!" Or, "Don't I have a right to express my feelings?" If spouses do not know when they are being abusive and why they are doing it, it's impossible to stop abuse from taking place. So before we look specifically at the three most common forms of abuse in marriage--demands, disrespect, and anger--I will explain what abuse is and why we tend to do it to our spouses. ~ZP
Last edited by Zuzus_Petals; 08/21/05 05:42 PM.
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I can see that you don't care what Harley has to say about it, and that's fine. I believe GHNL has counted a load of uses of the term abuse by Harley.
Furthermore, you say that Harley doesn't use the term abuse, he uses "abusive strategies" and calls them LBs. But, let's contineu reading from the chapter "What is Marital Abuse?": ZP, do you not care that he titled the book "Lovebusters" and calls those traits "lovebusters?" He doesn't run about with shrieks of ABUSE!! against those who use lovebusters and lump them all in the same pot as wife beating. I think we have some folks here are a little too anxious to accuse others of "ABUSE" which does a disservice to those who are really abused. It almost amounts to a fanaticism and I find it quite frightening.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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Do you want to try reading my post again, then? Because your post made no sense at all. I tried that, same result. You're very clear about what you mean by "witch-hunt" and it has nothing to do with anything I've ever posted. You sound pretty confused.
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I can see that you don't care what Harley has to say about it, and that's fine. I edited that out because I don't know what you think of Harley's writings enough to make that kind of DJ. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Sorry. ZP, do you not care that he titled the book "Lovebusters" and calls those traits "lovebusters?" He doesn't run about with shrieks of ABUSE!! against those who use lovebusters and lump them all in the same pot as wife beating. No, he doesn't, and neither do I. But Harley obviously brought up this point in counseling many times, otherwise why would he be able to say: I often hear the shocked reaction, "I'm not being abusive--it's my spouse who's being abusive to me!" Or, "Don't I have a right to express my feelings?"
I think we have some folks here are a little too anxious to accuse others of "ABUSE" which does a disservice to those who are really abused. It almost amounts to a fanaticism and I find it quite frightening. Actually, I was abused, thanks. And no, I don't have a problem with someone using the term, and certainly not Dr. Harley telling someone he's abusive for berating his wife into submission, or a woman nagging her husband into compliance on an issue. ~ZP, who's considering continuance of this to be...over-the-top
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Do you want to try reading my post again, then? Because your post made no sense at all. I tried that, same result. You're very clear about what you mean by "witch-hunt" and it has nothing to do with anything I've ever posted. You sound pretty confused. But aren't you a little confused, too? You seem to be talking right past me instead of TO me.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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But aren't you a little confused, too? Nope, not at all. Thanks for your concern though, which is sweet given how worked up you seem to be. You seem to be talking right past me instead of TO me. Really, what does that mean? Does it mean I'm responding to what you say to me in context of what has actually happened instead of what you're claiming happened but didn't? Or does it mean that I'm not confusing what I've actually said with whatever you're going on about?
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[
Actually, I was abused, thanks. And no, I don't have a problem with someone using the term, and certainly not Dr. Harley telling someone he's abusive for berating his wife into submission, or a woman nagging her husband into compliance on an issue.
~ZP, who's considering continuance of this to be...over-the-top Then I find it most surprising that you would lump lovebusters such as nagging or farting into the same pot as wife beating and molestation. Perhaps that is why Harley labeled them "lovebusters?" It might be technically true that nagging is a mild form of abuse, but it's like equating cigarette smoking with heroin abuse. Lumping it all together simply exaggerates the import of minor bad habits and undermines the seriousness of real abuse such wife beating, molestation. This legalistic approach to the use of the term "abuse" is about as productive as insisting that all WW's are "whor*es," sure it's technically true in the most exaggerated sense of the word, but why exaggerate and insist on using the term when its not helpful?
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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** PLEEEEEAAAASE Justuss delete this pitiable p1ssing contest.
** Melody Lane , you should know better thank to rise to this !! Stop it before I abuse you verbally, or make myself unavailable to you ! **
MB Alumni
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[ You seem to be talking right past me instead of TO me. Really, what does that mean? Does it mean I'm responding to what you say to me in context of what has actually happened instead of what you're claiming happened but didn't? Or does it mean that I'm not confusing what I've actually said with whatever you're going on about? That means you have yet to respond to a single point I have made. You keep talking, for some reason, but it's like you are speaking to a point that was never made.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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That means you have yet to respond to a single point I have made. You keep talking, for some reason, but it's like you are speaking to a point that was never made. Ah, ok, I thought we'd already covered this -- that's because your points are based on fiction (the ones made to me anyway). There isn't any real content to respond to. The "witch-hunt" thing, for example -- you clearly defined what you meant by it, and what you defined it as has nothing to do with anything I've posted.
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mineownself, there isn't a point I have made that is "based on fiction." You might disagree with the events I stated leading up to his FU thread, but that in no way changes my point and supports your silly point that it was "abusive." It doesn't change the fact that he wrote the message under duress after the shock of D-Day and doesn't change my point one bit.
"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt Exposure 101
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