I wrote the following to Suzet on another post, but I need help ... more than just in recovery ...

Suzet –

This past weekend was terrific ... we had dinner out with some friends on Friday and my H took me to a romantic evening out to dinner and an upscaled blues/jazz club. Couldn’t have been more superb.

Then, Sunday hit. (I'm really starting to hate Sundays.) If you recall, my H had suggested that we schedule a weekly pow-wow to review our progress and set goals/activities that will keep us moving in the right direction. Well, we did just that. One of our tasks was to complete all of Harley's MB questionnaires and go over them. Even though I noticed my H didn't complete his until the last minute and didn't bother reading the explanations at the top of each page so as to answer the questions appropriately, I didn't say anything. I thought he, at least, did complete them. So, we started by going through the Personal History Questionnaire, each taking turns answering a section at a time so that we can clarify or answer any questions the other had.

The one thing that really stuck out was his sexual history. I guess I'm very sensitive to this part, since I know he was/is still “using” pornography. During our discussion, he admitted that he's had some sexual exploits in the past that were pretty intense and "adventurous." At the time, I didn't think much of it until the next day. What didn't make any sense is why he was so open and adventurous with sex with other girls but not me? And, the worst part is feeling that perhaps I drove him to pornography somehow. Unfortunately, I spent most of the day yesterday (Monday) obsessing about this, and, when he got home, I brought it up. He automatically became defensive and angry. After a couple of hours, we finally made up, went out for a nice drive and grabbed a quick dinner. Everything seemed peachy again until we got back to the house. As you know, we’re still separated. So, when we pulled up, my H became edgy, and I didn’t understand why. He asked me what I wanted to do and said “I guess I don’t mind if you want to stay.” What kind of comment was that? I became indignant and left, but I felt something was amiss. What was really strange was his behavior triggered something that happened over 13 years ago! When we were dating in college, he cheated on me once with an ex-girlfriend and lied about it. I almost forgot about it until something in his words & behavior triggered that memory. I tried to ignore it and left.

As usual, he called me around 9:30 (his bedtime) to tell me good night. Said he was tired and was crawling in bed. Again, I detected something was amiss, so I decided to drive out and see if my instincts were right. When I got there, all the lights in the house were on, so I walked in and immediately knew he was in the basement. When he heard me come in, he quickly turned off his computer and flipped the monitor. I was shocked! Of all things, I didn’t expect this – considering we just had a fight about it less than 2 hours ago! Then, it finally dawned on me … that my H was absolutely, unequivocally addicted to pornography! Even though many at MB had warned me about it, I guess I never fully understood it (or simply ignored it) until last night. Just like how I was when I was in my A, he was willing to give up our marriage for his addiction!

What was really naïve of me is my thinking that my A would give him the wake-up call he needed to “kick the habit.” Shortly therafter, my H came over, bringing both of his computers saying that he wants me to keep them until he’s able to overcome this. He asked if we could go for a walk. As we talked, I realized I was hearing the same B.S. that I was dishing out for the past 1.5 years … except for the fact that his addiction has lasted 8 years and is still there! And, all this time I thought we weren’t having SF b/c “it” just goes away after a while. Hate to bring up old history, but that’s also why it was quite perplexing that the OM (even after 1.5 years) still wanted SF all the time.

Suzet, I’m so lost I don’t know what to do!!! Like Dorry said, I’m so scared that things will revert back to how things were. BTW – it turns out that my H hasn’t exactly kicked his computer gaming addictions either. Just like his use of pornography, he just waits until I’m gone. And, he just admitted last night that he’s also addicted to eating. (I didn’t even know there was such a thing.)

What the h*ll is going on here?!! What happened to the good-looking, out-going, fun-loving, intelligent man that I married???? Was he always like this, and I just didn’t (or refuse to) see it? I know we got married young and very quickly (after 8 months), but we were already living together, so you’d think I would’ve seen these things. Maybe I just didn’t want to see, so I didn’t? Is love truly that blind?

And, most importantly, what do I do now?? I’m so frightened. Again, Dorry is right - I just didn’t want to admit it … I don’t trust myself. I’m afraid that I’ll miss the attention and long for the physical intimacy that’s been lost for so long and look elsewhere (again) for that love. Now, instead of the passionate love that I started to feel for my H again, I’m left feeling disgusted, sad, cheated … and very lonely and afraid.

The good news is we’re going to see our MC today. Unfortunately, I’m not as optimistic about things as I was. I equate things w/ my A, which lasted 1.5 years and is still plaguing me after 3+ months. What can I expect from an addiction that lasted 8+ years??

Can anyone please help and shed some light on this? Please??

Check my thread in Recovery, there are some good websites on there...

Here are a couple of websites to look at:

www.faithfulandtrueministries.com
www.bethesdaworkshops.org
www.recoverynation.com
www.sa.org

If your husband is struggling with SA he needs someone who is familiar with SA counseling and does not dismiss it like many counselors do. Also, he needs a support group that he can remain accountable to in order to share his struggles, much like a person who attends AA does.

You have to remember whisper that porn addiction is considered by some scientific studies harder to kick than the addiction of crack cocaine or even herione.

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,65772,00.html

I'm sure you have studied porn addiction. This is probably going to be the biggest and most difficult hurdle for your husband to over come. My thoughts go out to you whisper.

What games does he play whisper? By that I mean what genre of games does he play?

The reason why I ask this is because certain genre of video games have stronger holds on people than others.

If you haven't done so or if you can afford it you might want to call steve harley considering he has counseled addicts.

Whisper,

Wow, porn addiction. I'm not sure that I'm addicted to porn since I can go weeks without viewing it, but let me give you my view and experience on it and see if that helps.

I was introduced to porn (by accident) when I was about 10 years old. Found a magazine under my father's bed and, of course, I had to look. I became fascinated with the female body and wanted to see more. Eventually I moved up to videos and never looked back. After a few years, and tons of raging hormones, I wanted to see the real thing.

I lost my virginity to a girl that was a little older than me and who I thought was very attractive. When it was over I remember sitting there thinking that it was nothing like what I had been viewing. There was no girl screaming or talking dirty to me, and there certainly wasn’t the climatic scene that I had hoped for. I guess, in a way, I was disappointed. Reality sucked… fantasy rocked.

Years later I came to realize that porn is just that… fantasy. But the fantasy became something that I wanted to have and felt sexually unsatisfied with anyone I was with. Sure, the typical release was there but not the screaming ladies crying out stuff that would make a sailor blush.

Then I met Diane. I was 20 and she was 35. And you guessed it, she was a true sex fiend. It's like she came out of the movies and into my bed. In a way I guess you could say that she was a freak to women and a fantasy come true to men. WOW!!! She became the first person that truly satisfied my sexual lust. I no longer needed to view porn because I was living with porn. I learned a lot of things during the 6 months I was with her. Sex was definitely one of them.

She eventually moved out of state and left me without my live-in porn. So, right back to viewing porn is where I went. I had a few girlfriends that did OK, but they were no match compared to Diane. I wanted that sex freak back and until I did I had to keep viewing porn to fantasize about it.

Eventually I met Undo and she became the woman of my dreams. I had found true love and sexual fulfillment all in one package. The kicker is that she likes porn also. Now, though, when we view porn it’s a way for us to act out our fantasies and to enhance our sexual experiences rather than for me to dream of someone else.

Porn was a way of saying that I wanted more than what I had. There’s a song by Usher that has a line that is very true to many men. It goes…

We want a lady on the street but a freak in the bed…

Not sure that any of this will help you, but maybe it will help you ask some questions to your H.

Whisper,

Porn really can be an addictive drug. Your H can kick the habit if he is really determined, but some IC/therapy could be very helpful.

I really have to agree with what Hopeful4Future said about it. I spent some episodes in the past where I now realize I was probably too dependent on porn.

My WW recently asked why I would use porn back then, even though she gave me sex all the time. I couldn't answer her at the time, I was as confused as she was. I realized that just because I was getting sex, it didn't necessarily mean that I was feeling sexually fulfilled. I was yearning for the excitement and thrill that you see in porn (the fantasy). Thus I'd still have the desire to turn to porn, regardless if we had been sexual that same day.

So how did I cure this problem? It was actually very similar to the NC concept with an affair. Once I forced myself to stop looking at the porn, I was no longer getting that stimulation. Eventually the stimulation I did receive was from my wife, and since I hadn't been getting it elsewhere, the pleasure of it intensified naturally. Even though our sex was not as wild as what you see in porn, it was very fulfilling.

Let's make an analogy to another addictive substance we are more familiar with: alcohol. When a man (or woman) is drinking straight tequila (porn) every day to get drunk (stimulated), he'll need more and more of it as his tolerance increases. Eventually, you hand this guy a couple beers (sex with spouse) and he drinks them but feels nothing. He needs much more than these two beers to get stimulated, so he goes back to the tequila (porn).

However, if this guy were to forced to kick the tequila completely, then he'd be not getting that stimulation anymore. His tolerance would eventually return to normal levels after a few weeks/months. Now you hand this guy a few beers and he's totally stimulated (sexually satisfied).

If your H can kick the habit on his own that is great. Otherwise please have him get some professional help. Have him agree to complete transparency, just like if he was in an A. Monitor his computer usage, etc. Eventually he'll stop having the craving.

Thanks to everyone for your responses to my cry for help.

StillHere - Can you pls send me the link to your thread? I can't find it.

RealArt - Thanks for the links. I've done a cursory view of Recoverynation, but will definitely do a much more in-depth study this week. My challenge is my H is so ashamed of this that he's (to date) refused to seek help from anyone, much less a group therapy (which is what I attend now that helped me get over my A and to go through recovery). Do you recommend a Plan B of sorts here??

NoLiving - Admittedly, I've not studied into this as much as I should have. I've dismissed it thinking that it's just a passing thing - that perhaps if I did better, I could "win" him over. I didn't realize the severity of the situation until last night.

"porn addiction is considered by some scientific studies harder to kick than the addiction of crack cocaine or even herione."

Your comment scares the living daylight out of me, but I do see your point. I tried to relate my addiction to my A to his porn addiction. The difference is my A made me feel horrible most of the time - b/c it is in the public's eye while porn is something one does in private that brings pleasure every time.

As for the games, they're online, role-playing games, and I am aware of their addictive nature. Numerous articles have been published that warns of such an addiction, and numerous marriages have been severed because of it. Again, I thought he had kicked this habit, but I was wrong ... or naive.

I have to run and will respond to H4F & Sundog when my H and I get back from MC. Wish us luck!

Well this is a good reason why it is hard to over come

"Mary Anne Layden, co-director of the Sexual Trauma and Psychopathology Program at the University of Pennsylvania's Center for Cognitive Therapy, called porn the "most concerning thing to psychological health that I know of existing today."

"The internet is a perfect drug delivery system because you are anonymous, aroused and have role models for these behaviors," Layden said. "To have drug pumped into your house 24/7, free, and children know how to use it better than grown-ups know how to use it -- it's a perfect delivery system if we want to have a whole generation of young addicts who will never have the drug out of their mind."

Pornography addicts have a more difficult time recovering from their addiction than cocaine addicts, since coke users can get the drug out of their system, but pornographic images stay in the brain forever, Layden said.

Jeffrey Satinover, a psychiatrist and advisor to the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality echoed Layden's concern about the internet and the somatic effects of pornography.

"Pornography really does, unlike other addictions, biologically cause direct release of the most perfect addictive substance," Satinover said. "That is, it causes masturbation, which causes release of the naturally occurring opioids. It does what heroin can't do, in effect."

The internet is dangerous because it removes the inefficiency in the delivery of pornography, making porn much more ubiquitous than in the days when guys in trench coats would sell nudie postcards, Satinover said."


So as you can see it releases a natural build up of opioids in a natural way, cocaine and heroin can't do.

Ok so now onto the video game, I'm assumming that you mean massively multiplayer online role playing game(mmorpg) when you say online role playing games right?(example are everquest, starwarsgalaxies, world of warcraft, dark age of camelot and matrix online).

So what are the name/title of the games that he plays?

NL - Am copying/pasting what you wrote ... everquest, starwarsgalaxies, world of warcraft, dark age of camelot and matrix online.

The answer is D - all of the above, but the biggie is EQ.

And, what you quoted is very, very scary to me. The sad thing is I would prefer that he go back to EQ than porn. While he may ignore me for hours on end, at least we would have some form of physical intimacy. It's the better of 2 evils. Now, I know this is all just crazy talk, but there's some truth in it, I assure you.

So, my H brought all of his computer equipment to my townhouse today. Says the best thing to curb an addiction is perhaps removing the object of the addiction. This is a new one. We'll see what happens.

H4F - Yes, this helps me understand things tremendously ... although I am quite certain that my H's porn addiction is at a much more severe level than yours. It stills helps to understand the addict's psyche. Thank you for sharing.

Sundog - I am hoping that you are right. My H has turned over all of his PC equipment so that he's not tempted. In his words, says this is his version of NC. I'm truly hopeful that you're right.

Whisper - there is a man that speaks at church men's conferences about porn addiction. A full evening and the next day all about porn. His belief is that if the computer is the avenue for porn - then it has to go. Total NC is exactly right. And it seems drastic.

Also - he DOES need to get into accountability. It will help.

I finally had a paradigm shift that helped tremendously. Unfortunately - my M may fail, and porn is one factor. Sundog has hit the nail on the head.

I also used the website - www.recoverynation.com It really helped. But the paradigm shift is what really did it for me.

Questions like: would I want my son doing this? would i want my daughters to see me doing this? Does this honor my wife? does this honor my God? (yes - He is sitting there beside me ALL the time - oy)

The 8 yr addiction number is significant. It is about the time we all could finally afford a computer and internet access. Guys - is that accurate? I have never purchased any porn. Only caught it on tv in hotels while travelling for business - and surfing it on the net. You would be surprised what you can find for free. Well - my dad had Playboy in the house - I would visit him 2 weeks in the summer and winter - and he never had a problem with me getting hold of it. Since I was about 8.

There is hope. but recovery is hard. very hard.

recoverynation.com

far

FAR - Thank you for sharing. I think a good dose of reality is important to keep me on track - to understand the seriousness of the matter. Re: your comment on 8 yrs ago when most can afford PC's ... actually, it was 8 years ago when internet was readily available to the general public. That's when it started. My H admitted this is also where he was able to safely and in depth explore his specific SF interest w/o being in the public eye (i.e. going to a store, etc.) And, he elected to exclude me b/c he was ashamed and embarrassed about it AND b/c it was a lot more convenient w/o having to have me around. I've somewhat ignored it all these years thinking it's no big deal. SF goes away after a while anyway. Every man is into porn. It's only been these last few months when I decided to post this problem here that I've realized all these naive thoughts of mine weren't true.

Thanks again for your insights. I truly hope our MC ccan get us through this.

Here's the link to my thread about Sex Addiction

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...;page=0#2771340

It starts out slow, and then when the realization comes that what our M is dealing with is a SA, then it speeds up. There are some folks on there that have been dealing with it for awhile...as here.

I have started on the recoverynation partners workshops...very useful.

I sat down with H and we read through www.sexualcontrol.com when things first started...that was the beginning for us...
It ws the timing though...

Thank you, StillHere. I will read through your thread tonight when I get the chance.

Thanks again,

SA is difficult for anyone to overcome unless they have come to that point of brokeness where they are deparately seeking help. It doesn't go away on it's own. The spouse of the person dealing with SA needs to set some hard and firm boundaries. Write out reasonable rules and consequences with the help of a counselor. It may even include a plan B action. Counseling needs to start for the addict and they really should be accountable to someone who they can turn to when they need help. If you can afford them, the Bethesda Workshops are great for both the addict and spouses of the addict. They are very intense and very healing for some people. Sex addiction is not about sex as strange as that sounds, it about medicating emotional pain, just like an alcoholic medicates their emotions with a drink. It's why it's an addiction, because it's medicating something very painful and then when you try to take it away the pain is there unless you have found a way to cope with it. Some people cope by turning to other addictions, which is not what you want to happen. So make sure you find a good counselor who is familiar with sex addiction and understands it. Search on the internet and see what you can find.

I read your post, whisper. I skimmed the rest of them. And I will admit up front that I have not read all of your story. Sorry for that, as everyone here is extremely important. I am truly happy that you are here and posting.

I have a question, though. Are you focusing on your H's needs for recovery? You are the one who caused him great pain(just like I am the one that caused Froz great pain in my situation), but you are here trying to talk about his problems. At a first pass, it seems selfish to be focusing on what he is doing wrong and not focusing on your own mistakes and making the decisions and taking the actions to affair proof your marriage. You are probably doing all the good things that a WS should do in this kind of deal, but I just got a pinch when I was reading a FWS talking about their BS's problems and what can I do to fix them.

Kinda like clean your own backyard before you clean someone elses.

Maybe I worded it wrong and it is offensive, but really what I am after is understanding the remarks you have made and where they are borne from. What gives you the 'right' to point out his failings when his failings did not make you have an A. An answer to that kind of idea is what I am looking for... but I realize that my words are very easy to be offended by. Please understand that I just didn't know how else to ask the question in other words.

From this, I am pretty interested in your situation and I will go back and read up on it a little.

I don't think I have ever posted to you... so I am sorry if this one seems rude. I am just trying to understand. And maybe help out. And maybe get helped.

Art - What are the Bethesda Workshops? Also, how can I know what kind of emotional pain my H was/has been experiencing? He won't tell me. He just says that the internet gave him the ability to explore his particular interest that no other avenue was able to provide.

Thanks,

The Bethesda Workshops are intense counseling sessions held by counselors trained in sexual addition for 4-5 days in Nashville, Tennessee. They have sessions for both the addict and the spouse of the addict. The material is based largely on the work of Mark Laaser a minister who dealt with his own sexual addiction. He has several books that you can find on Amazon.com on the subject. I had already been through a lot of counseling by the time I found out about the sessions. My wife though went and found them to be very beneficial even though she had already been to some counseling. They helped her deal with some of her feelings as they related to my problem.

As far as your husbands emotional pain, it can be anything. Mine was trying to deal with high levels of anxiety and anything that trigger the anxiety would turn me towards my sexual addiction.

Many men are not even aware they are medicating their emotions. To them it seems like your husband said, they are just exploring. But what they are getting is a emotional high and that is the addiction. The emotional high covers up any unpleasant thing going on in life. You have to remember, most men are not in touch with their feelings. If I asked you to guess what one emotion most men are even allowed to experience growing up, what would you say? It's anger. From the time they are little boys they are told, don't cry, be tough, show me how to be man, get angry out there on the football field. Men don't know their feelings, so it's not uncommon for them to not know what's going on inside.

So, sometimes it takes some counseling to identify the problems and understand what is taking place.

Thank you, Art. I will look into Bethesda, esp. since Nashville isn't that far away.

One more question on Bethesda - neither my H nor I are very religious and aren't usually motivated by faith-based based seminars. Would they motivate/help the secular populous as well?

Thanks,

Patriot,

The one thing that I think a lot of BS's hate to hear is that WS's (usually) don't stray simply b/c we have no moral values or that we want to maliciously hurt our loved ones. In my case, I've endured some fairly serious emotional abuse and neglect and thought I had no other option. When I walked out, I had every intent on getting a D. Instead, I made the cowardly move of ensuring that I had my safe net in place before I left. Hindsight? It's the worst decision I've ever made.

With that said, I don't believe I would've engaged in an A had my M been good and rosy. Was I contributor to our marital downfall? Absolutely. I was too naive in my concepts of sex & relationshiops (I wasn't allowed to date in high school, so my H was my 1st real "boyfriend.") When we got married, I didn't know we had problems except for the fact that I became increasingly unhappy. Since my H wouldn't allow me to "air" our marital laundry, I just thought I was a bad wife for even being unhappy. I should've researched and asked questions, despite the possibility of letting loose a skeleton or 2. I wasn't strong enough to stand up for my rights. I didn't set firm boundaries. I allowed myself to become a doormat. After years of fighting with no results, I became angry, critical and bitter, and eventually lost all hope and gave up - we stopped fighting altogether. These, among many other flaws, are what I'm working on every day through IC and accountability groups.

You may not like hearing this, but I didn't return to my H b/c it was the "right thing to do" by society's moral standards. I returned b/c I saw (or thought I saw) some significant changes in my H. I thought he was striving for something better. He told me he has overcome his addictions and that he's willing, for the first time, to work on our M. You probably won't believe this, but most of my friends and family who eventually learned what really went on in my M weren't exactly thrilled when I decided to return. Even my therapy group was surprised and questioned my decision. The good news is everyone has been supportive of my decision, regardless.

Back to your comment of cleaning my backyard ... yes, there is definitely plenty of work there to do. And, believe me, I'm working on them and will continue to for the rest of my life. With that said, I also refuse to allow myself be mistreated and continually lied to and eventually regress to the pathetic existence of a M that I had to endure for so long. And, THAT is why I'm seeking help.

Hope this answers your question.