..by which I mean Plan 'Choose, buster'.

NC is supposed to be where the WS commits themselves to having no interraction whatever forever with the OP. But, all too often, the WS is unable to relinquish the fantasy, the warm wet-dream of the OP. They 'commit' to NC, but maintain contact because they're addicted, unable to tolerate withdrawal, yada, yada, yada...

My own H saw the need for NC, but ached for 'closure', for reassurance that OW was surviving without him, for reassurance that she still pined for him. I permitted limited contact 3 months after d-day, so that he could get his 'closure', and of course the whole thing escalated to the point where he was lurking round their old love-nest, and having phone conversations lasting hours.

And at that point, six months after d-day, something in me woke up...and I found the self-belief to tell him that this was unacceptable, and I didn't want him in my life any more. I told him I didn't care what he did with his own life, but I wanted him out of mine, so that I could heal myself and move on without him.

He moved out to a motel, angry and hostile.

Came back after one night. Started looking for small flats, becoming increasingly panicky and pleading.

What became clear was that the shock of realising that I really didn't need him, that OW was all that was left to him, woke him up with a bump. He wanted his home, his family, his kids and his wife. OW was an extra that was worthless without the real stuff.

The balance of power changed that day.

It still strikes me that this one act was where our recovery began. He might, of course, have left me instaed of coming back, but if he had, I would have known that he was not worth the fight.

Perhaps, if withdrawal becomes an ingrained part of the relationship, Plan C is a useful path to take?

TogetherAlone

TA it was a huge turning point when I told Squid I wanted her but didn't need her too.

Behaviour changed, attitide changed.

She tells me now it scared the sheet out of her.

I wish I had been that confidant right from d-day.

TA,

""What became clear was that the shock of realising that I really didn't need him, that OW was all that was left to him, woke him up with a bump. He wanted his home, his family, his kids and his wife. OW was an extra that was worthless without the real stuff.""

This is sooo what the NEWBIES need to realize. To have the confidence and spine to put their foot down NOW and knock the cake-eating fence sitters off that fence, rather than arguing the MB principals.

If they fall on their side of the fence, good for them. If they fall on the other side, then like you say, they were not worth the fight.

This can also be applied to exposure too!! The BS that is terrified that by exposing, the WS will hate the spouse and leave forever should find their "self belief" and SUCK IT UP!!

You found your "self-belief" which is AWESOME!

Because an A leaves the BS with much lower self-esteem and feeling worthless, some of us may never get this "self-belief". This should become a part of our encouragement to the new initiates. And to the older ones like me.

Thanks for the insight TA. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

k

krusht,

The more time that I spend on these boards the more I admire Dr Dobson's principle of Tough Love and the tragedy of appeasement.

Amen.

Appeasement simply enables the affair.

I might point out that while Tough Love is a great theory, in the aftermath of discovery, that its not quite so easy to do for many people. I personally believe that Plan A and Plan B are not just to negotiate an end to the affair, but it also is a practical structure in which the BS gets to learn with confidence that they will be just fine without the WS.

I have to absolutely agree, especially as a newbie here myself. WS has been gone 2 mos. I have now read Tough Love twice and finally feel the strength and more importantly have begun to get my self-respect back.

Losing your self-respect/self-esteem is very scary. I've been through ****** and back the past two months. Only in the past week or so have I really begun to see the light. I'm not letting the drama get to me as much as it did in the past. Now I am actually starting to laugh...is that sad? I've gone from fear, tears to laughter watching all this take place in my life.

I love the point that BR says " a practical structure in which the BS gets to learn the confidence that they will be just fine without the BS."

Thank you for stating that...This was tough for me to finally realize. But a big step forward when I finally did realize that either way, I was going to be okay. I have survived the past 2mos. I have survived even when I didn't think there was a chance in ******...I did. It can only get easier from here.

Bump for Gramm

Too many people forget about the fact that Dr. Harley never intended for Plan A to be the deal-closer - just the stage-setting. If your marriage has been filled with LB's and hostility, then it's important to show that it doesn't have to be that way. Good training for yourself and for the WS to see the most "ideal" face that the marriage could have. Getting rid of the LB's is an important part of self healing and personal recovery - you get a head start on starting a new relationship ... either with your FWS or with yourself.

Plan B IS tough love - it is designed to knock the fence-sitter off. It is the part of the 2 Plan approach that is designed to either save the marriage or YOU. The commitment to the marriage is clearly stated, the conditions of renewed contact are presented.

Plan A is intended to be followed up with Plan B unless circumstances change sooner than expected. There is no "enabling" suggested in Plan A if you read Surviving An Affair.

CS

the posts here are really giving me more to consider as i try to make a decision about/find the courage for plan B. i just really think it's too late and plan B would be a relief for my H.

i can't identify any EN that i was meetingthe OW isn't and he doesn't need me to meet ones i wasn't cause she's already been meeting those before he left and moved in with her.

Eav, that's ok, you don't need to identify the EXACT need in order for Plan B to be successful. It is apparent that you are meeting SOME need in your H that keeps him coming back for his fix. That's enough for you to know. That's enough to yank him off that fence hopefully.

I no longer believe that it would be a "relief" for him if you went into Plan B, I think that is your fear talking and not rational thinking. Remember what happened when you started pulling away instead of lapping up every crumb like an eager dog? He started calling you more often. That tells me he wouldn't feel relief. But even so, if he did feel relief, what you are doing now is not going to restore your marriage. It's time for the next step because you are just spinning your wheels and wasting your time.

The other thing you need to remember is that while an affair is ongoing you generally CANNOT identify and/or meet your spouse's needs because they won't let you. The key part during an ongoing affair is the elimination of lovebusters - that's Plan A. You've done that for as long as you can and MUCH longer than Dr. Harley advises - it's making you crazy now, and as Melody points out, it's not going to restore your marriage.

CS

The following is one of my posts from Nov 2003. I had just discovered how deeply my husbands affair had continued. I had reached my breaking point. It is true that it took 14 months for me to get there. But at some time something finally snaps and you say, No More.

************************
Some of you know I've been in the US for the last 3 weeks. Just prior to leaving, H admitted he hadn't stopped talking with her. He couldn't give her up.

So much has happened since. I'll try to make this as brief as possible.

Upon arrival is US and visits with his family, I learned of 3 business trips to the US over the past year where he had her with him. He actually introduced her to his brother. His brother and I are very close as well and he was crushed to be caught in the middle.

*Informed H that I was planning to return to Europe just long enough to pack things. Kids and I would be moving back to US over Christmas break.

*Sent new employer resignation letter, cc'd to H

* Cut off all contact with H. Fairly easy to do since I was in US and he was in Europe.

* Discovered just as I thought, she hasn't been the only one, she just got under his skin. The others were just flings when he was on extended business trips.

*Advised by his/my family to D him

*Told children, D (15) and S (13) that Dad and I had been trying to resolve our problems, but it didn't seem to be working. Gave them no real details, but they're not stupid. Told H I told kids that I planned to return to US. Yes, they wanted to return with me.

*Now let H sleep in bed he's created for himself.

Took about 3 days for H to call me and tell me he's ended it with her. Told him perhaps that was a little premature since I wasn't back in Europe yet and wasn't sure I wanted him whatever he had told her.


MK

My case was a little different, and I also hadn't heard of MB when I was dealing with my wife's EA.

When I found proof of their online/phone EA, he bought her plane tickets to go live with him, even though they'd never met in person at all. He bought them for later that same week, so that she could work out logistics for the kids depending on what I did in reaction to all of this.

I told her that she wasn't going to be sitting around the house calling/IM'ing him all day while waiting and planning on living with him...she called a cab and moved into a motel.

She claimed that whole time that she hadn't 'decided' yet what she wanted to do...stay with me or go to him. But at the same time, I knew that her mind was pretty much made up. So I wrote her a letter outlining all of the things that she would be giving up if she got on that plane. I made one VERY clear 'line in the sand'...if she got on that plane, I would NEVER take her back. That last day I went to her motel room and we finally had a good sit down talk. She was furious about what I told her she was giving up...she felt that it was totally unfair that I would completely refuse to ever be part of her life again if she chose him.

But at the same time, it also reminded her of all the good things that we still had. And I emphasized those in our conversation. She even begged me at one point "Can't you just let me go meet him, and if it doesn't work out let me come back to you?!?!" This was totally shocking to me, as it came from one of the smartest women I've ever known.

The end result? OM called while we were talking, knew that she was undecided, and ended the A on the spot. We went through her withdrawl, and about a month later she truly made her choice to reconcile. We had some rocky times even after that, but we are doing great today.

I firmly believe that standing my ground was a large part of getting the outcome we were after. I made it totally clear...if she got on that plane, she could NOT come back...EVER. I would miss her, it would have wounded me to the core, but I would have never looked at her the same way if I knew she'd been with him. I would NOT take her back. And she knew I meant it.

Sometimes I think that a similar approach might help some of the people here on the MB board when they've got a WS who is fence-sitting...sometimes they need a cold, hard dash of reality in the face to wake them up.

Owl; Even though you weren't tuned into MB yet, it sounds like you just flat didn't have any time then to use MB concepts anyway. No possibility of Plan A (or B); I can't see that you had much choice but to do as you did.

WNH-

I think you're right...though I probably could have made a later choice to Plan A or B once she contacted the kids and began to figure out what was going to happen from there. But I knew how I felt, and was sticking to my guns.

I also feel that God played a huge role in this...because there are too many things that worked out so that this outcome happened. Had I forced the issue earlier, they would have denied it and continued the affair under deeper cover. Had I waited, it would have gone to a PA, as they were already planning to meet sometime within the next few weeks from when I'd captured their IM sessions. But instead, the timing happened exactly so that they couldn't deny the EA, but they hadn't had a chance to really get things set up and thought out.

I believe in miracles...and feel that God made a few small ones happen to help my wife and I recover. Small to Him that is...HUGE to me.

I think I am at the point like Bobpure was. I want my wife back, but I don't need her.

for the last 10 weeks i have had low self esteem and talk about a blow to the male ego, my wife left me for the OM. ouch.
It's only been in the past 2-3 days where I've felt, I don't need her, however I want her and just not part of her, all of her.
My DD made this desicion 4 weeks ago. Wish I had her faith and strength.

Plan C ...what timing. That's exactly where I am at. What if WH won't leave the house?

don't know what to tell you confused.

Confused,

You have exposed to all and he is still living in the house and still continuing the A?? PA or EA? (not that it really matters, but a PA would be harder to continue I think).

I am sure this sitch has happened before. Someone will address this soon.

k