We know MB is never intended for WS w/ addictions ...

Dr. Harley posted "One of the first things I do when couples see me for counseling is to evaluate them for drug and alcohol addiction. If I feel that either is addicted at the time, I refer the addicted spouse to a treatment program. The Love Buster, drug or alcohol addiction, will prevent them from resolving their marital conflicts because it controls them. It must be eliminated before marital therapy has any hope of being successful.

My job as a marriage counselor begins after successful treatment and sobriety. If the addicted spouse refuses treatment, then I direct the unaddicted spouse to Alanon or some other support group for spouses of alcoholics. Sometimes, I encourage an intervention"

MB or plan A/B was never intended to salvage M w/ dual problem ... Infidelity & Addiction. Now is plan B the right intervention for alcoholic WS? NC and letter, the right intervention for WS spouse ?. We are threading a thin line here. We are betting that "whatever love left in WS" would bring them out from alcohol and A. What is the odd of that ?. The odds is decreasing in magnitute proportion to the length of use.

Plan B might be the only thing BS could do to protect themself ... I would not suggest it as a tool to salavage M w/ alcoholic WS ... it is not an intervention method for the addiction and the infidelity. Actually the letter should not even mention about OP or infidelity but addiction. The NC is good when BS could not protect themself from manupulations and could not withdraw emotionally from the addict and should not suggested even as a last resort to salvage M. There is no hope for M unless and until addiction is resolved.

Just psychobabling ...

-rh-

Plan B has some outstanding elements that benefit the WS and the BS in an alcoholic situation even though it wasn't intended for such. I have seen this plan in action in AA for years, and it can be very successful. Of course, we don't call it Plan B here, we call it "tough love."

An alcoholic needs tough love and Plan B provides this in many ways. Tough love is usually the only thing they respond to and can often help them reach their bottom. Plan B also provides the BS protection from the destructive alcoholic and removes them from the insanity.

It probably won't salvage the marriage, nothing will except complete abstinence, but if anything might motivate an alcoholic to sober up, losing their #1 enabler in life can often do it. So, in a very round about way it may end up salvaging the marriage.

Plan A, on the other hand, would be harmful in such a relationship, because it is impossible to meet the needs of an alcoholic. An alcoholic would only view Plan A an opportunity for exploitation since they is how they view people.

Thanks ML,

I absolutly agree with you about tough love is the right intervention for an addict WS. However there are differences in Plan B and tough love. Plan B called for NC at all cost except emergency where Tough Love calls for NC when SO can't help themself to enable the addiction. Plan B focus is breaking the A by withdawing the emotional support, tough love is about drawing the boundry.

I have seen the impact of NC in tough love, they rather slept in the street and prostituted themself than going back to their parent home. They rather seek help at the free-clinic (you could imagine how much free-clinic could offer) than warm and loving support of parent's house. I think their brain is fogged up that they forgot about the love ... and with NC there is no way for them to hear their loving and better choice at home. When they are graduated from the program with the public resources ... most of them
choose not to return home ... unable to trust their parent again.

thanks -rh-

As someone who is in the midst of Plan B with an A who is also involved with OW it is an extremely tough line to walk for me.

I want him to know that I am here for him when/if he does wake up from this fog. However, I can definitely see the difference in getting off the rollercoaster of manipulation and anger that WS is now riding. He is very close to hitting rock bottom and is nothing but an anger filled alien right now. There is NO sign of the man I love anywhere inside this man.

Our new girl at the shop answered the phone today and said it was for me. Not thinking (new number) I took the call only to find myself being immediately accosted by WS on the other end demanding to know why I wasn't answering his calls or responding to his text messages. I was caught totally off guard. I tried to turn the conversation around for a minute to calm him down and when I realized that I couldn't I promptly said that I could not speak to him any further and I hung up. Now I am shaking like a freaking leaf. Sales girl now knows to screen all calls for me. So now he can go back to OW knowing that this conversation only fueled his anger towards me...when that was not what I had wanted.

I am staying in Plan B for me with me I think there were months of Plan A...our relationship was a Plan A with me fulfilling all his EN. I carried the weight of the relationship towards the very end. I have also cut off most communication with our friends this past week. Our best friend is working out of town for two months. There will now be peace and quiet in my life...This is for MY sanity. I also quit the dart league as of last week. It was in the best interest for everyone. My boutique has opened and that along with D15 are my only focus. I have given up any and all chances of saving him or our R at this time. I think it is apparant to everyone that he has definitely chosen another way of life.

redhat, they are exactly the same things. Plan B and tough love are designed to protect the spouse by setting boundaries, and to allow the addict [WS] to hit bottom. The tough love we are talking about in AA is not solely to protect the SO or "draw a boundary;" it's purpose is to allow the addict to HIT BOTTOM. Hitting bottom is the only hope they have of ever getting better. The only thing the addict responds to is PAIN. Exact same thing in an affair. And often the spouse is the only thing standing between them and that bottom. Exact same thing with an affair. I see no difference, except in the focus of the addiction.

And I can't comment about kids, because I have no experience with that, I am discussing adults.

Lisa, you are doing very well! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you Melody...that means a great deal to me!!

I'd like to add a thought here and perhaps you could expand on it. When he got me on the phone and started in on me about not returning his calls and blocking his text messages, I responded with a reminder about the letter that I had given him with his things. He got very defensive about "What letter, I didn't get any 'effen letter, I don't know what you're talking about. You should be returning my calls."

I just played the voice mail from him to my therapist yesterday. The voice mail was when he received the letter. She said from his tone it was obvious that he had been under the influence and that it was definitely self-centered and self-serving and that he didn't "Get" the letter. In other words...he didn't grasp anything inside the letter that had been written. Now two weeks later he has totally forgotten about the letter. So perhaps with an "A" there isn't much use for the letter or do you think just an isolated situation.

I'm so angry at myself for getting caught up in him again...so angry. I should have just hung up the minute I heard his voice. That's where I made my mistake. But at least I did control the conversation and when he went off yapping about stuff I said I have to go and hung up.

Lisa, who knows? He might not "get" it or he might have completely forgotten it. The one thing I do know is that it wouldn't have had the same effect on an alcoholic as it would a person with a normal mind. An addict could not respond to such a thing with normal emotions or rational thinking. He probably just sees it as a sign that his meal ticket has been cut off.

I disagreed ... and I would not argue with you and leave it at that.

Note ... the kids are yound adult 18-late 20's. They stucked at when they were first abusing the subtance.

sexysadie,

All WS are in fogland and until they are out of it ... you will not see the H that you know. They are taken and replaced by Alien.

-rh-

These kids are in Plan B? huh? redhat, I am not talking about kids when we discuss Plan B here in conjunction with alcoholics, these are fully grown adults on Marriage Builders. I just don't know what you mean. Plan B, as we use it here, is no different than the principles of tough love we have used in AA for years and years. You can disagree all you want, but you would be wrong.

I am truly a believer now in Tough Love as hard as it is for someone who loves/cares for an A. It really is our only saving grace from the lies, manipulation and the self-destruction of our loved ones. I AM A BELIEVER!!

It's hard to not want to pick up the phone and tell them you love them, you'll be there for them when they wake up...etc...but at the same time, I cannot for another minute bear the anger and hatred that this alien has for me. He blames all his misery now on me. This is the path of life he has chosen...this wasn't OUR dream.

I would like to diagree with you if this is ok. This is my thread please repect my request. I will check with the expert,Dr. Harley on this.

Thank you for your oppinion.
-rh-

sure enough, redhat. You can disagree all you want, but I am living testament that tough love does work [20 yrs sober as of April 27th] and so are many people in Alcoholics Anonymous. Ya can't disagree with that.

sexysadie,

You are doing great. NC seems to be what you need to do right now. The NC as part of the action cause by him disrespecting your boundaries and helping you withdraw emotionally.

In plan B, NC would be called off if WS leaves OW and detoxing is secondary. In tough love, NC would be called off if WS starts detoxing and get treatement with or without leaving OW.

I agree it is very hard to do that ... but tough love calls for it. You have to keep telling them love but draw the boundry when he disrepect you or hurting you. If you can't do that or he kept disrepecting you ... you hung up and when there too many of those you put NC.

Is no one's dream ... not even his. It is the substance's side effect. Addict always blamed other for their habit and you are it.

I am still psychobabling ... how do you tell some one that you love them but sticking to your boundary ?. Probably hung up when they start getting angry or manipulating you.

-rh-

This all makes sense. What is frustrating is that I know he received the letter, he called me the minute he finished reading it. Now he's forgotten all about it. He doesn't get why I am not calling him, returning his calls or blocking his text messages. It's absolutely all pointless AT THIS TIME. The only thing it does is gives me some escape route from his anger and manipulation. Although now he is going through other routes to get to me...he's using his mother who's still grieving over her mom dying a couple of weeks ago. His mom is playing right into his hands. His dad is on board completely with tough love but his mom is having a problem with it. She's asking me to have him come over..talk to him, etc. So now I am torn between protecting her emotionally and once again going back to his nonsense and babble or following through on my tough love with his dad and worrying over what happens between his parents relationship over this. Not a good place to be right now.

No you don't let me disagree with you even I ask your permission.

I am not disagreeing with you about tough love ...
I am not disagreeing with you about your testimony about your soberity ... I even admire and respect you for it. I stay away from D&A b/c I know I won't be able to get myself out from it.

I disagreed with you on the answer and I disagree in the statement that Plan B="tough love".

-rh-

redhat, this seems to be going nowhere, so why not give it a rest?

Yeap, it is very hard. But the relationship between him & his mom is his to own. You aren't responsible for it. As matter of fact, stay far away from it.

-rh-

So do I avoid her emails now also? His parents and I have always had a very close relationship. I am trying very hard to keep them out of all the nonsense. When I sent the Plan B letter it was his father who offered to be the go between. His mother is not as strong as his father and I don't want to tell her everything that is going on...yet I don't want to appear as being not cooperative either. In my response to her yesterday I told her that we had a conversation and that it didn't go well and I thought it just best to continue to leave him be for now.