See? Pep?

Weaver understands! (and offline, I'll ask her 2 help ME understand!).

Maybe I need 2 try this again...

My W's A was never "in your face" or "full blown", whatever that means or wherever the demarcation lies.

No, what I had was probably what most people who don't do regular M maintenance experience at one time or another in a LTM - a "mediocre marriage." Or so I thought.

And I've been with this chick for almost 30 years now. I had a heckuva a lot of emotional fusion 2 unfuse before I could get 2 a point where "leaving" might be less painful than staying. And then, there's a lot of emotional unfusing I feel compelled 2 help my W with before "leaving" would be less HURTFUL than staying. Right now, I'm pretty sure leaving would hurt my W tremendously, but except for the pain of watching her (and our kids) hurt, I wouldn't be in much pain, I don't think.

But I don't think there could NEVER be a time when leaving wouldn't hurt her (or my kids). If, for example, my W decides, in a fog-free state of mind, that she still would rather not be bound by marriage vows - that she would now like 2 try something like "open marriage" or singlehood for example - then I think that splitting up would be a delightful option for both of us. I'd be sad, but I'd be free 2 persue another committed relationship, and she'd be free 2 be non-committal, if that's what she decides she "believes in."

Thankfully for me, for now, I don't think that's what she'll want. I think she'll want true commitment, even when it means "forsake all others, starting with and especially RM."

-ol' 2long

Dear friend... I decided I will just accept that I don't understand right now.

What I don't understand is waiting to leave until it won't hurt to leave ... and I think that no time like that exists

and that's OK <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I can live with my mental vacancy

Pep:

I would be the happiest clam if it's true that no time exists when it won't be hurtful (or painful) 2 leave.

Maybe that's the case, and I just haven't seen around some corner 2 perceive it and realize it's so, yet.

I'm remembering something SC said a 2ple years ago. That his relationship with his xW was "complete." Not over, complete. Both mean "finished", but "over" sounds more fatalistic than "complete" does.

Like "time 2 move on!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

-ol' 2long

I think the thought referred to "leaving when it is more painful to stay than it is to leave"

Not that either of them will be without pain.

Susan

I know I'm going to feel like I kicked a puppy......
and honest to pete 2long...I admire and I adore you..
and this is only a cyber world...but here it comes.......

She asked me "wouldn't you like 2 see him happy?" And I replied that "I'd like 2 see him learn the life-lessons he needs 2 learn. Often that involves pain and suffering, as it has for me. As for whether he's happy or not? I could care less."

No wife I do not care to see him happy....
ever.
period.


I've had 2 be so careful with her so she'll inform me of contact when it occurs - lest I drive her further underground by LBing in the slightest way. ...couldn't do that crap forever and get anywhere 2ward recovery .

Right...you alone are responsible for her decision or indecision to value honesty and non hurtful actions..
if you don't behave yourself...
she will with-hold information that is pertinent to your life.....
so you better behave.....and not do anything to drive her further away..........

(remember I do adore you..even though that hurts to type..)

If we DV, I want us 2 agree that it's the right thing for each of us 2 do.

that loud thump was me falling off my chair and hitting my head on the my keyboard........

good gravy..you expect this from the women who won't even AGREE that her AFFAIR MIGHT cause you SOME PAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!wants you to consent to wishing happiness for her OM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you sure are asking quite a lot.......

2long...as always...I think you should Plan B...
especially since you two are talking so much right now..
time for the sower to reap.......

ARK

Why, when after three years of not going to Plan B, when communication is just now really starting, would Plan B be a good idea?

To get her to agree to NC or to preserve whatever chances the marriage have?

I would think that if communication and some intimacy were happening now that this should be allowed to grow.

No?

What I understand 2long to be saying is that there are two different things going on here. His lifelong relationship and friendship with his W, and then the marriage contract.

They are separate issues for him I think.

And aren't they really two different things, I mean the relationship and then the marriage contract, when a marriage is in trouble?

I agree they should be one, but that is not always the case is it?

I got a lot of "stuff" floating around in this challenged brain lately, so forgive me if I am sounding whacked.

well weaver..


1. because plan B when executed best...is done EXACTLY at a time that things are going good...

2. my grave concerns about 2longs continual acceptance of unacceptable behavior...
ie shouldn't you be happy for my OM !!!!!!!

his belief that it is HIS behavior and actions that are responsible for his wife's honesty.....he better behave or she will with-hold disclosing...

If nothing else...2longs wife has totally concooned herself from the REALITY of her choices and hurtful actions....

she in my opinion needs gobsmacked with reality..

imagine losing OM
and
losing 2long...

talk about some soul searching...

or not...

she dangles him from her universe....

to cowardly to set him free
to cowardly to move towards healing her damage
to cowardly to think of ANYONE but herself...

poor poor victim.......that she plays so well...

ARK

she dangles him from her universe....

perfectly stated .... now THIS I 'get'

Susan, Pep, ark...

You guys think I should plan B now???

I don't feel dangled at all, either.

And I did tell my W that I don't want RM 2 be "happy", in so many words and not in so many words. How do you expect me 2 convey that AND help her finally start withdrawing?

I also said "maybe you could convince RM 2 dump his GF and go be with him yourself", which was certainly a counterproductive thing 2 say. I said a lot of other things that I haven't repeated here. Some good, some not so.

Overall, I give myself pretty high marks for the way I handled stuff.

Have these convos been "thee" major 2rning point in our M? Sometimes it seems like it, sometimes it doesn't. We'll just have 2 wait and see.


...but if I were 2 do plan B right now, I'd just as soon change jobs, cities, and "move on." I believe I have done "all I could", and now it's time 2 help her do all she can, in my view.

-ol' 2long

friend

I am soooooooo over offering you my advice ... I only want to be your friend

Pep, I owe you a response. My statement about waiting until the LB has run dry before leaving was something I found here a long time ago. Your scale doesn't accurately portray my meaning (and I don't dare say you are taking it out of context). I liken it to when a spouse dies and people tell you don't make any major decisions for six months. One difference I have noticed about d-day is most woman take a much more pragmatic view of the marriage then men. That view comes much later for men. On d-day men are simply in emergency rescue mode. Where I see a lot of woman immediately question whether they should stay or go.

I also understand a lot of what 2long says. The time for Plan B is long gone. His W is defogging. But I agree with all of Ark's comments. The dangling and selfishness etc. If 2 was to go to plan B he might as well change jobs, cities etc. This I find extremely true. He has reached a point of apathy and indifference that is SURE to get his W's attention. They can definitely stay together without screaming and calmly discuss/decide whether to split or work to fix things. No need for Plan B at all. I would again remind 2long that he needs to be very careful not to make to many negative and disrespectful comments. Because I know when this apathy sets in it is very easy and tempting to let go all we have been holding back for the past 3 plus years.

uggh..

I feel as pep does....

it is painful to type my opinion of someone he loves...I am trying to be objective...but there is the issue of my own anger and frustration at 2longs wife...and some at 2long for acceptance of certain treatment...

while knowing it's none of my concern how anyone chooses to live...it makes me crazy that someone as intelligent and witty as he....chooses a life with her.........

oh good grief..I just sound crazy..........

OK 2long....glad you said it...cause I don't think you should plan B either really I think you should leave her!!!

I don't think your wife is in any type of fog...
fog is for people in the throes of emotional crisis of the heart and mind...that are litterally battling for their soul and say things that while they may even mean....make no sense....

it is my opinion that 2longs wife is long gone from the fog and is a bundle of opportunistic rationalization and justification.

your first post states...

Mostly it's stuff about me not meeting her needs all those years ago. She hasn't come out and said that the A's my fault lately, but she might still think that way.

yeah well it is my opinion that you should NOT entertain an iota of that crap...tell your wife to get over herself...and that she needs to take responsibility for HER choices and ACTIONS of the affair...
load of crap number one.

Anyway, one of the things she "knows" that has me curious is that RM's GF apparently said "you 2 should get 2gether once more 2 get it out of your system" or words 2 that effect,

dangle dangle dangle..
what a cruel ridiculous immature thing to say....but mostly just cruel....
She did admit 2 realizing that she was surprised at the depth of her attachment 2 RM when she heard the news last week.

baloney she's not surprised she has fed this alligator from the moment she brought him home...but the irony is that she want you 2long to pet it be nice to it...

you wife is intelligent
she is well aware of what she is doing she just refuses FACE what she is doing....


Like her telling me that she likes being alone (she's gone on work-related trips for a month or more at a time, and didn't miss us while she was gone),

dangle dangle dangle...and cruel...

and your realization 2long that you didn't miss her...is not manipulative it's the truth...because you are an honorable man...and she is destructive to honor...

she can't be alone with herself at all period.......
and she hasn't been...


My W's A was never "in your face" or "full blown", whatever that means or wherever the demarcation lies.

really? huh....

Right now, I'm pretty sure leaving would hurt my W tremendously ,

and what is so wrong about your wife hurting...?
why should she for some reason be the only human on this planet given a free pass from hurting...especially when a lot of this if of her doing...

where is this smart womans learning curve....

protect her from herself....how does that help her...

better you be continually hurt...than her I guess...

ARK

Hi folks:

Well, I've got a lot of cool busy things 2 do 2day, so I won't post much now, just saying Yo.

You've all given me some interesting perspectives. I wish I could be more complete in describing my position right now, but I obviously haven't been, I don't think.

I have had some misgivings about the way things are going or not going over the past 2ple weeks, and our lack of a real "plan" for recovery at this point. But I still think there's time. Time 2 make fateful decisions. Time 2 implement influential plans if "others" aren't willing 2 take responsibility, grab their taker by the horns, deal with it, and recover.

I'm thinking about MC, possibly even with SH. I'm thinking about asking my W how she intends 2 assure me that contact has ceased and will never recurr.

'course, I could just leave, 2.

Anyway, an incomplete, sketchy reply. Gotta go work!

-ol' 2long

What are you helping her to do?

Are you helping her be cruel, helping her be loving, be respectful?

Is it loving to protect her from her consequences?

If your daughter was being treated by her husband like your wife is treating you, what would you do? What would you say to that man?

Loy:

"What are you helping her to do?

Are you helping her be cruel,"

No.

"helping her be loving, be respectful?"

I'm pointing out when she's doing those things, so she'll know that it has a positive effect on those around her.

"Is it loving to protect her from her consequences?"

No. I don't think I'm protecting her from her consequences, though. Should I shoot her, though?

"If your daughter was being treated by her husband like your wife is treating you, what would you do? What would you say to that man?"

I'd nuke him. But this is a hypothetical. My D isn't being treated badly by her H.

-ol' 2long

Naw, shoot me instead.

Put me out of my misery and confusion, would ya? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

2long hun ~

Your wife has been protected by you from the consequences of her cruel, selfish and unloving behavior...and so will never learn. This is unloving on your part.

2...what are you so afraid of, that you are willing to stay in a marriage that only offers you crumbs? What is your payoff? What exactly are you goin to lose? Not a wife...not an intimate relationship....not even a friendship. A dog is treated better than you are dear!

Protecting / helping your wife as an excuse is bunk, and only shows her disrespect. Disrespect in that you don't think she can handle her own life and the consequences of her choices without your protection.

You are a good man who does not respect himself. You've taught her to respect you...by your own example.

There's no recovery here 2...just 2 people using each other.

see 2long..this is the problem when people here admire you very much...find warmth in your wit, humor, and intelligence.


You say your children would be very hurt...but since they are older....I don't deny they wouldn't hurt..but I bet they have seen the way your wife is capable of treating you....and would not necessarrily blame you..........

ARK

2long,

hey there! I have't posted to you much since your sitch is so far from something I could even imagine trying to advice anybody on.

All I can tell you is, if you are scared of hurting your children by separating or divorcing from your wife, I think thats a real stretch.

You see, my father has been in and out of this EA since I was even born. As a matter of fact the EA was a PA for a while when my mother was pregnant with me. Through the years this EA has resurfaced over and over again, and each time it has brought pain and incredible hardship to everyone in my family.
My mother thinks she is good at hiding this things from my brother and I, but everytime something was going on, we knew, because we had to deal with a WD (wayward dad), and a DM (Desperate Mother).

Over and over, round and round, every 3, 4, 7, 12 years this EA resurfaced at random like a bad case of herpes.

My mother never puts her foot down, she never demands the NC or tries to put any plans into action. She is in the same position you are. My fathers OW is married now, but that doesn't stop her from trying to contact him whenever she feels like amusing herself.

I sincerely wish my mother would get some spine, realize she is an independant powerful woman whose kids adore her to death and would jump in front of a truck for her, and go to plan B or even D with my father.

Don't get me wrong, I still love my father, afterall he IS my dad, but the disrespectful way he has treated my mom for as long as I can remember regarding this EA is just insane.

Their relationship can be wonderful at times, they seem so in love etc etc, but he was never comfronted with real, hard consequences to his actions, and he might never be. My mothers lack of severity on this is so incredible that my dad is not scared of getting caught, the only thing that makes him nervous is knowing I'll eventually find out, because I do yell at him, and I won't talk to him or acknowledge him untill he does something about it.

I know that you are choosing to stay on the marriage for several reasons other than your children, but don't do it just on their account, it would be a diservice to your family really.

I know it has been a terrible thing for me on my case.

2long, its high time you figured out that maybe your wife is how she is and she likes it that way and she will stay like that untill she dies. If that is the case, and you still want the marriage as is, then you have to buckle down, and commit or resign yourself to having it as it is and just not worry about what your wife says, does or doesn't do anymore regarding to her idea of marriage and past or future affairs.

I believe people change as they grow older. Some people might age well, become more wise, loving, others just switch at some point, and decide to be the oppossite of what they used to for some reason or another. Sometimes we cannot bring the person we married back, because that person no longer exists, and all we are doing is hanging onto an ideal, the image of a person that maybe we didn't know quite as well as we thought, or that decided to cross and burn some bridges that turned them into somebody completely different.

I know I am very young, and my marriage is just a spring chick compared to yours. But I know what living in a situation like yours does to a family, to the psyche of the children in that family, and it just isn't pleasant at all.

But now I'll shut up since I always seem to say the wrong thing anyhow.

Folk units:

Well, if I did plan B right now, it'd be from Mars, and being in plan B while I'm on Mars would put a damper on all the fun that being on Mars is supposed 2 be about.

I think I have time. I don't think I'm being disrespectful (either of her, my kids, or myself) by appearing, in the MB eye, 2 be inactive about this.

I don't think this is "who my W is" and will be forever, but it's not impossible. I intend 2 find out.

I am not a fan of imposing NC or verification on a WS. I need it 2 be voluntary. These days, it's just 2 damned easy for a WS that wants 2 be secretive 2 be secretive. And I've learned 2 trust my instincts over the past 3.5 years, such that I'm much better at sensing things aren't quite right than I ever was before. This instinct, or in2ition, is pretty low resolution - it takes a period of time 2 compare with a prior period 2 be able 2 put my finger on the "wrongness" if it's there at all. And it does require communication.

Like now, my W hasn't "really" volunteered either NC or verification, though she has acknowledged that she does need NC 2 start recovering without resetting the clock every time. I don't think there's been anymore contact. I'm almost sure of it even. But I don't have "proof", and probably never will. Re-reading SKM's Chronicles recently, I wouldn't be at all surprised if contact happens again at some point. If it does, I hope she learns something from it (and tells me about it), like SKM did when it happened 2 her. I told my W I'd forward SKM's Chronicles 2 her, and I think I will 2day (after I'm done with my current Mars activity).

Anyway, folks, I appreciate your concerns. I think I'm doing this right, though.

-ol' 2long