my husband who left my 3 year old and me still insists he doesn't want to try to work out or marriage even for our son. no counseling, nothing just end it. but when if i talk about it like its over he throws in my face "well your the one who wants to get seperation papers" "your the one who said you didn't have any feelings for me anymore" ( i told him God had made me numb, but that i knew i loved him and would always)* he tells me he isn't in love with me but will always love me. But still insists there is nothing to work out. My gut tells me the guilt is killing him, but i am not sure he is finished with the affair, which he still doesn't admit to or deny. i really think i am losing it. I am trying to be strong for my son, but he has totally cut him self off from him, this part i do not understand. He was so devoted to him kept him all the time, took him everywhere-best father of the year! when my son asks if/when he is coming home he gets mad and very strongly says to him " i'm not ever" why is he being like this to our little boy? Is it guilt? will he ever admit? Help!

Jaysmom,
trust your instincts. Unfortunately for you and all of us BS who have been through it, your WH is in the throes of the affair. He has justified and rationalized his behavior to the point that he is acting like a different person. This is textbook behavior with someone having an affair.

He is being angry with your son out of guilt.

He is a very very confused man right now.

Most of us have been told the line by our WS about how our WH aren't in love with us, but will always love us. This isn't really based on love, but on selfish feelings. He FEELS in love with someone else, and he doesn't FEEL in love with you. This can all be turned around in time.

I hate to break it to you, but you already suspect it, the affair isn't over. To the contrary, it's extremely ongoing. Thus the behavior. I learned the hard way with my WH that his silence meant the worst assumption. If it was over, he would tell you.

He's deep in what we refer to here at MB as "the fog" - it's as if the aliens have captured him. He's a different person then the man you know.

Have you read Dobson's "Love Must Be Tough" or Harvey's "When the One You Love Wants to Leave"?

Both very very helpful to give you a rock solid game plan on how to deal with his behavior. It's, as I said, extremely textbook, and your best bet at getting your WH back to your family is by following the plans laid out there and here at MB. Plan A, Plan B...

How long have you known about the A, how long have you been M, and how did you find out? Did you catch him, or did he come home like my H and say he was unhappy and thinking about separation, denying an A, then admitting it later...?

How long has the A been going on?

my husband left 2 days before our 10 year anniversary. I found out because i suspected he was...he did the same thing 5 years ago. everything exact almost to last time. i saw him on his cell, but no # coming into or out at time i saw him...long story short, he isn't very smart the cell is in my name and i found out. he went out and bought another cell and my son told me (he gives him no credit) found his # and caught him again..he still denies even having the new phone. the OW says they are only friends. yeah right. the phone calls started 3 weeks prior to him leaving. when i found out he was talking to her and called him on it he stormed out saying there is nothing to work out. so i believe i caught the affair as it was just starting. how can i get it to end. i don't even know her real name.

The books I cited about will walk you through setting up respectable boundaries - meaning, what the conditions of your relationship are that your H needs to abide by if he wants to stay married to you.
He moved out? Because he has a friend? You are right, "not just friends"...
Defensive behavior...

How did you handle it 5 years ago when this happened? How did you bring it to an end?

he has moved out, but is next door at his moms which makes things extremely hard. he stays gone most of the time stating " its just easier for everyone if i stay gone" 5 years ago i suspected but didn't know for sure until it was over. I found out and called him on it and he fell to the floor in tears. he said he was never going to tell me for fear i would leave. he had ended it. before he left just like now blaming me for everything wrong in the world...he stayed gone 3 months...went on AD's and was home within 2 weeks. He is much angrier this time. and before he never told me he wanted to end the marriage,but then again i didn't know about the OW then. could the anger be because i found him out this time? today has been hard i am discouraged and just want to throw in the towel but this man has adored me and our son. He is just not himself and it worries me. I love him so much because i know the real man but how long can i keep it together? I have to be strong for our son. i am not allowed to run away from all our problems. will he end the affair...he is really struggling some days...very angry..today he was in a good mood telling me all about his day...thats what is so discouraging. help!

I would just really say that "Love Must Be Tough" answered a lot of the questions for me about why the WH is acting the way they are. He is very confused. He won't make a decision until forced to. The anger at you comes from having to justify to himself that what he's doing is okay. The more he demeans you in his mind, the more justified the affair is.

You need to put yourself in a firm position of being able to take a stand that is repectful to yourself and your marriage.

I got those two books from my local library. They were extremely helpful. I liked them because they told me what was happening & why, and what to DO about it. It didn't need a book on the PhD level psychology and types of affairs. I needed INSTRUCTIONS! Sounds like you do too!

1 week has gone by since this post and my husband has started being extremely nicer to me. Nothing harsh said, still isn't talking about our marriage, but then again neither am i. He is being so much better with our son, wanting to spend more time with him but still not much time, just more than before. he still stays gone alot, but insists on telling me most of the time where he is going, although i never ask. we have suffered financially nearly losing everything we have and i know he is very depressed. he isn't facing any of the finacial responsibilities, pretty much he just ran away from home. is it possible that he just doesn't love me anymore and i am not facing the facts. he did talk to the OW ALOT. he did run out and get another cell phone he hid from me to talk to her...and never left us until i found out about her. Please tell me again i am the sane one right? no one would leave there child just because they don't love there spouse right? and tell me why now has he started being nicer to me? I have been very firm with him about things and he cried this weekend (his mom told me) because he didn't know where we were. he has started calling everyday, but doesn't talk about us, usually uses the excuse that he is checking on our son, but never asks to speak to him...what is going on with him...i am going crazy!

Jaysmom,
my guess, he's being nicer to you out of guilt. My WH was really nice to me once he got it out in the open the 1,000 ways I had ruined our M. It didn't last long though, we just managed to get along until a fight a couple of weeks later over a misunderstanding and he moved out in a huff. Your H is extremely confused right now. He doesn't know what he wants.

This is a very very hard stage. BUT, the good news for you is that it is textbook behavior. Everyone thinks their A is different somehow, but they are pretty much alike.

Have you read Dr. Dobson? Surviving an Affair by Willard Harley?

Because his behavior is such a mystery to you, and actually it is painfully textbook, I really would highly highly recommend you get one of these books.

If you want to save your marriage, and I know you do, you have to educate yourself about what is going on here. You need to be the voice of reason, the person that understands what your WH is doing and why, because he doesn't & won't for a long time.

Hi- I really for you since I"ve been in a similar spot a few years ago. Like your H my H moved out soon after I confronted him about the A and got him to finally confess to it. Like your H he wouldn't tell me who it was with. I finally found out it was with a single co-worker. My H insisted our marriage was 'over in his head' and that he was in love with OW. ( I even caught him in our laundry room telling her that on his cell phone.) After H moved out( a few weeks after discovery) he would stop by sometimes to see the kids but would avoid me and when I tried to talk to him he would bring up divorce. I definitely didn't want one so I learned to avoid discussing that because it would just start us into a fight. But H's silence was extremely painful and he treated me like lint from the dryer.To get thru this time I prayed alot and spent alot of time talking to friends about it to try to keep the remnants of my sanity intact.I also read about affairs.My pastor told me to think of H as temporarily insane. That helped some. This went on for another month and meanwhile OW was pressuring H to divorce me and marry her. ( she was desperate to be married!). My H who had been a pretty straightforward man and good dad to our kids for the 15 yrs before his A, was totally confused and seemed to not be able to commit to either of us completely.( Huge sign of conflict avoider.) H then said he wanted to move back home(Felt guilty about the kids.) Said he wanted to reconcile but his heart was definitely not in it. Looking back on this part I would have been smart to insist on joint counseling for awhile before letting him move back in and take up residence as a sofa potato! Finally OW put enough pressure on H that he filed for divorce and it was only afer I received the papers that he finally had an emotional breakdown and cancelled it all. Hopefully you won't end up with as much theatrics as I did but this is 4 yrs later now and H and I are still married and OW is long long gone. Take care and read those books the other posters mentioned- they are excellent! Nancy

thank you guys for all the advice! I went out and bought the books "love must be tough" and "surviving an affair" both have been very helpful. It has been a few days since last post and since H has been so much nicer...we had a long talk a few days ago and i never raised my voice only spoke about how much love we had always had in our marriage, he didn't say anything...at times things did get heated, i was still very soft spoken...he would get very angry and i would ask him why he was so angry with me...he would just hang his head and say "i don't know" Nothing was ever mentioned about ending our marriage...in fact he has never said the word divorce one time...only "there is nothing to work out" He has only told me 1 time he did not love me anymore and that was when i forced him to, but then he said "but i will always love you" that was several weeks ago. He is much kinder to me and has started facing some of the major financial problems we have...which is good.. He is still next door at his mom's and isn't leaving as much and when he is gone he doesn't stay gone for long. The last few conversations he has commented that he doesn't blame me for anything that he is just "sick in the head" or "sick minded" He is gotten much better with our son, more patient, kinder, more loving...but still not spending much time with him...but the time he is, is better quality for him. I guess what i am wanting to know is...is this just a phase...or his he coming around? He still doesn't act much like he wants to be with me...but asks me several times where i am going...i am very firm with him, and vague about where i will be...i have been staying gone a bit...he will act as though he doesn't care but then will say "well be careful" something he did not do in the beginning...am i crazy to think things are looking up? what is my next move...continue being firm, act like i don't care...any advice..?

Things are looking up in that his profound anger which was being directed at your & your son (which was a product of trying to justify his adultery) is turning to confusion.

If you are reading your Dobson & Harley, you will see the "cake-eating" and being "on the fence" that can happen while he is confused. Follow Dobson's messages and those here of the Plan A that makes sense for you.

This takes time, your patience will be tried. You will see him flop back & forth, every day will be different. If you want this over with soon (and I know you do), you will be disappointed everytime he flounders back & forth. Just be patient. Wait, wait wait. This is the hardest time, and it goes slowly.

Keep posting & reading.
NTL

OKAY...help please i think i am going insane. My H has been much better towards me but this weekend kept making reference to needing to get a room to get away from his mom (she is barely home) and i knew he was setting me up for him being gone overnight...i was right he spent the night out 2 nights ago and did not pick up our son from preschool..he told me before he left he would always love me again...but insisted his needing a night away was not what i thought...apologized over and over saying he knew what i was thinking and it was his fault for the 1st affair, but swore he wasn't running around...i also found out he has been taking viagra recently so i am not stupid...i know what he did...he called me last night and was still being nice, told me now he doesn't know if he wants to work on our marriage, before he was saying "there is nothing to work out" but now he is "not sure" he is being much nicer but i verbally told him, i knew what he was doing no matter how much he denies i know, i told him he had crossed the line with me and that i deserved someone who would not lie and cheat on me over and over again...i know he believed me when i told him but i feel he thinks i will cave in a day or two and ask him back or he will believe he can come back...he keeps saying he is messed up in the head, which leads me to believe that is his way of trying to come back home..."i was depressed i didn't know what i was doing" kind of thing (did that before) so i feel he is planting that seed in me so he can come back when he wants...what do i do now? i know i have to stick to what i said but do i do the Plan B letter or continue like i am? i feel he is tiring of his affair..it's getting the better of him...but he just can't let go either...help! please!

I continue to recommend the same, whatever combination of Plan A and "opening the cage door" of Dobson that seems right, using your judgement of how he seems at the time. Remember, a lot of this is reverse psychology.

It feels like it won't work, but it does.

You are not ready for Plan B yet (no contact). It's too early.

As he continues to be confused, you continue with the same message - which is "You need to decide who you want, me or her. Contrary to what you seem to want, you can't have us both. I understand you are confused and such a decision takes time. I love you. I want to work on our marriage. But this has been painful, and I don't know how much more of it I can take." i.e. you imply that at SOME undisclosed point in the future, you may/will decide not to give him any more time. Until then, Plan A sweet. No love busters. Just clear, calm communication. He is in the eye of the storm, not you. You are an onlooker. Don't let yourself get pulled in to his chaos.

NTL

things are starting to feel different. I am starting to really just not care anymore. But i believe it is God making me numb. the past 2 days he has been nice to me, then he was very hateful and angry towards me when i ran into him at the grocery store later that afternoon..(she may work there...he was very jumpy????)
he of course called and apologized first thing the next day for being so mean. I was still very firm and told him he knew the right decision to make but for whatever reason he couldn't or just wouldn't. I told him he had a good wife (he agreed) and that he knew what he should do, then again that afternoon(yesterday) when i picked our son up from him he was being horrid...he was very hateful and this
time telling me he didn't want to talk to me unless it was to do with our son. I was being very cool, calling him on his lies, etc. but never upset (actually laughed at him a time or two)which is why i think he got so angry, then yet again...not 2 hours later this time...he calls..not apologizing because i told him earlier i was tired of him doing that...but called wanting to know about our son..(he had left some things (insignificant things) at his mom's and wanted to know if he needed to bring them over...it was gum)i was very cool and told him no, but he came anyway...very nice to me, hanging around for a while and then left...first thing this morning...calling again...i still am very cool...answer his ?'s and so forth...he is being extremely nice and talky...is this still confusion, or is he starting to worry i just may be finished with him? I really feel as if he is worried he may have crossed the line with me, but still maybe has in the back of his mind hope that i really don't know (although i believe he is freaked out at the things i find out without trying to , God has shown me everything he would do before he does and i believe he is freaked about this) I just wish he would wake up and end this A. Is he coming around at all...i am still reading...and still seeking your advice...thank you so much...

I can see how you think you're going crazy. the stuff that gets tossed back and forth without any resolution can be exhausting. It's easier just to say that you don't care anymore. Unfortunately for me, I have four teenagers and a six month old. What then? I'm so sick of the silly stuff like, "You didn't communicate that." OR "That's not what I read should happen." I'm totally sick of all of it, but it just doesn't go away.

Hey! that's me. He's pulled me into his chaos and continues to make me feel like I caused it all. He actually blames me for "making him tell the truth" because I wanted to know. Who are we kidding here?

You need to EXPECT that his feelings and behavior will change by the minute. He's in the eye of the storm, the center of the swirling tornado. YOU are the onlooker. It is your job to be the calm one - don't get riled by these seemingly senseless changes in his behavior. He's very very confused, wait it out.
[color:"brown"]
Psalm 71
1 In you, O LORD, I have taken refuge;
let me never be put into confusion.

2 Rescue me and deliver me in your righteousness;
turn your ear to me and save me.

3 Be my rock of refuge,
to which I can always go;
give the command to save me,
for you are my rock and my fortress. [/color]

I know, I know. i love this man with all my heart, i'm not ready to give up, i don't believe God is ready for me to. He has certainly in the past 2-3 days made a huge turn around. this is the most confusing part. He shows up at the house, hangs around for a while and then leaves. he is calling me everyday at least once but most of the time twice, morning and evening. Doesn't talk about us, but talks about his day, my day, our son. i can tell he is missing our conversations, sometimes he just rambles on and on about work...something i am sure he doesn't or can't do with his OW, i have come to understand clearly here and in books that A's are based on lies, so i can see why he is missing his best friend to talk about reality. He hasn't been ugly or hateful to me in 3 days, instead being very kind or if he isn't in the best mood, more quiet. He also seems to be looking at me differently, i can't really explain, except when he left his looks were as if he could literally kill me, frowning, just really mad. Now he almost looks sad, or hard to look at me. I have stayed completely firm, but don't talk about us much...is that okay? not that i am avoiding us but i am kind of avoiding us...i just talk to him, i guess waiting until he brings it up, is that okay? I can definitely see a change for the better in him, but why doesn't he confess that there is an OW? the last time we talked about things, he was still denying everything, this is another thing that confuses me so, he KNOWS i know, without a doubt, so why still deny? is it because if he admits it he may feel he has made a choice of the OW and if he continues to deny to me what i know, in his mind he still has the choice of coming home? Oh i think i am confusing myself now?! anyway, thanks for all the advice, i so appreciate, its nice to vent here. please continue to encourage me, i feel much better and things are looking up i am happy with myself and i know i can survive with or without him. God is on my side after all...

Jaysmom, it's okay that you aren't talking about the state of your marriage too much for now... if he KNOWS you know about the A, how can he deny it? How can you not bring it up?
Have you made it plain to him that you KNOW there is an OW, and he can't have you both?

YOU need to decide how long you should be his "emotional security blanket" with these conversations. Plan A + exposure + time usually does end an affair. I had to go to Plan B. He just COULDN'T get off the fence. Couldn't decide between us.

Just make sure no s*x for now even if he tries on a "good day" - don't put yourself through that. It's too painful later when he chooses OW in his fog... even though that won't last.

I'm going to try to cut&paste something that was posted on the recovery site that I really liked.

"When God places a burden upon you, He places His arms underneath you." - Streams in the Desert, Sept. 30

Thank God for that!!!
NTL

I cut & pasted this from the Recovery board:

Read what Frank Pittman says about 'romantic infidelity'


Quote:
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ROMANTIC INFIDELITY

Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continuing living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate-someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own-is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.

People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born-any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.

Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up every-thing. Men in love lose their heads-at least for a while.


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