Bob, I'm going to break off this thread because it's bringing back some hideous memories and making me depressed. I'm trying to work and tears are dripping on the keyboard.

I am really easy to fool. I learned in IC that I am so transparently honest, I have no instincts for deceit in others. I simply don't pick up on the signs, because I have no internal framework for the mechanics of lying. Both my kids have confessed that they find me dead easy to lie to (but also that they have absolute faith in my utter honesty). I think I may be so trusting, people deceive me just because they can.

I ask a direct question and get an answer. Before, I'd simply accept that answer. Now, I look at it from every direction, suspecting evasion and half-truth. And you now what, I still can't tell.

The depressing thing is that I see no way to remedy this. No matter how many 'Never be fooled again' books I read, I can't see that I'll ever have the kind of instincts for the not-quite-honest and the lie-by-omission that I could really do with. Being paranoid about everything as I've been, is just as dysfunctional as being too innocent. At times I think I stay with H because at least I have some feel for where he might be lying. I don't think I could bring myself to risk choosing badly a third time.

Perhaps I need to start another thread, to garner insight into how others spot deception.

TA

Sorry Bob, but this is your subjective opinion and I know for a fact of personal experience it is not the case with all people.
I disagree with this also. Me and Mr_Incredible always agreed that the formality of the marriage was "just a piece of paper" and I didn't feel one Iota different the day after we eloped then I did the day before, and me and Mr_Incredible have talked about this a great deal and he says he feels the same. We were utterly committed already, before we ever decided that the paper would be a help to us. Cuz I was in the military, and it made a difference to them never to us.

We've never regretted the piece of paper but nothing in our relationship changed before or after. Sorry you're missing the boat, in my experience. Maybe we are exceptional, I won't argue that.


And that's what you did in your experience. Didn't you say that you also waited until marriage to have intercourse? or at least you said that Squid was your only sexual partner.


And I broke a string of hearts before I committed to Mr_Incredible.

One of my last BFs before I hooked with Mr_I was a real nice guy in my school. The fact is I wanted a BF in school because I was new, my senior year, in a very large school, it seemed everyone new who I was, "the new girl" but I didn't really know anyone, and I was getting an uncomfortable amount of attention from the male population. I lived at the beach every summer, and I would come back to school really blonde and really tan and I did stand out. So the nice guy and I hooked up in a nice comfy relationship and that held the other attention away. One day when I was at his house, I spent the afternoon talking with his fascinating older brother, who shared my predilection for obscure music and was a vietnam vet, and I realized something stirred in me toward him. YIKES!!

I got the he11 outta there so fast it made BFs head spin, there was no way I was getting involved in some weird-[censored] BS like that! UGH UGH UGH!!! I broke up with him without explanation and never looked back. As if on cue, Mr_Incredible showed up and it was all over anyway.

So maybe it's a personal standard. I wasn't above using a guy for my personal safety and comfort apparently, but that's all probably understandable if you factor in my history of rape. But there was no way I was going to sully myself or my dignity with that sordid jerry-springeresque nonsense like cheating or breaking up with one brother to date another. Puke.

Why is there marriage at all then 10S ? If BF & GF are as committed as spouses the second they decide to date, why have a formal relationship framework at all ?

TA I am NOT easy to fool yet Squid did so for ages.

I let my instinct to trust overwhelm my better judgment.

It doesn't make us bad people TA.

This post is for Bob ... coz I agree with ya !!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

a hypothetical .....

I give a 'pinky-promise' to my new landlord that I will pay this much rent every month, payable on the 15th of each month.

or......

I sign a rental contract agreement with my landlord saying pretty much the same thing ...

'cept ...

NOW I am legally bound as well as bound by my own ethics and integrity.

Now my landlord turns out to be a real creep. I don't want to pay .... so I just walk away ...

oops ....

my creepy-landlord has a signed contract saying I am now liable for damages ....

orrrrrrr.....



If you were the landlord ..... would you ~ever~ consider renting your most valuable property based on a pinky-promise and not a legal rental agreement?

The tenant turns out to be a real creep. The tenant does not pay his/her rent....

If something is of value ... you make certain things are done right.

The level of "pain inflicted" may not be much different ... but the level of commitment that starts with a signed agreement of life-long "tendancy" is deep with significance !!!

In my opinion Bob <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ... civilized society makes things that meet a higher standard more important.

If you buy a car your obligation is certainly different than if you just drive it month-to-month as a rental. When something breaks down, one is more motivated to do the necessary repairs if there is ownership involved.

Now you know I did not say that, Bob. I said that there can come a point that a couple can commit and they don't need the man-made cultural construct of "marriage" as proof. I never needed a piece of paper to prove my COMMITMENT to Mr. Incredible. But I didn't make that commitment the first day we dated, and I didn't make that commitment lightly. It was the first and only such commitment I made to another living person in this world, comparable only to my commitment to God. Prior to that I never even entertained the thought of such a commitment. My father said one time, he doubted if I would marry before I was thirty. He knows me well, I'm headstrong and independant and didn't expect to ever bow down before any man. Mr. Incredible entered my life and changed all that.

We made our own vow to God and each other well before we did it formally. And since we eloped we have never done it before "God and Community". (ONLY BEFORE GOD) Does that make it ok that Mr_I betrayed me so totally? I assure you my pain is to comparable depths as yours.

10Swords, and it makes a difference to God too.

And nothing in any relationship WILL change without the addition of Christ. Without that, we all remain in the "old" and the "new" has not come.

I don't think anyone is arguing that someone, believer or unbeliever, "CAN'T" make a personal choice for faithfulness, they can. "Marriage," despite objections to God, was instituted, established, and pronounced "very good" by God.

But I think Bob Pure is arguing, as I would, that there is a fundamental difference in being "obedient to God's commands regarding marriage" out of love and a desire to honor God AND an individual choosing on their own to adopt "God-like" standards concerning a relationship between one Man and on Woman. The ultimate issue is NOT whether or not a couple chooses fidelity with each other even if they are not married, the issue is their relationship with God that comes first. We are ALL sinners and none of us "does it perfectly." We all need God, but that's a whole 'nother' discussion.

"just a piece of paper"

pilot's license
drivers license
license to practice medicine
nursing license
marriage license
car registration
morgage papers
loan application
legal deposition
constitution of the United States Of America
Bill Of Rights
laws
movie ticket
love letters
phone bill
pink slip at work

While I am not usually one for sticking to cut and dry distinctions (emotions are very messy), I do think there are some lines that can be established here. Interestingly, there are similar discussions over on the D&D board.

Without an explicit agreement of exclusivity, there is no infidelity. I don't believe "tacit" agreements should be relied upon.

I think an engagement is a good way to formalize that exclusivity. Until then, you MUST assume that your partner (and yourself, for that matter) may be open to considering other partners.

If, after all, dating is a form of shopping around, then why wouldn't one "trade-up" if they met someone better suited. This is the nature of the dating game. Unlike marriage, it's quite common to leave an informal dating relationship for the very purpose of initiating a relationship with another.

Does this make it wrong? Only if it involves underhandedness to keep one hanging on the line. I don't think there's anything wrong with telling a BF/GF that you are ending the relationship because you want to pursue a relationship with someone else. Does this make you a "cheater"? I don't think so.

Along those same lines, without an agreement of exclusivity, there is nothing wrong with maintaining multiple dating relationships (if you are so inclined). I may have lunch with the Sears sales clerk and dinner with her sister. All ok without an explicit agreement.

Low

Forever Hers,

I respect your right to love, honor, and worship God in the way you have chosen.

I have my own faith I am very devoted to, I am Jewish, Both Mr_I and I are CONVERTED. Now please stop trying to convert me to your way, I find it disrespectful of the highest degree. I hope you can accept this and leave me alone about it in the future.

Otherwise, I think you often have valuable insight to offer, especially to other Christians, and I respect that for you and them.

I'm asking you respectfully to back off.

Suzet

I never saw two girls at once, but I never 'nobly' said " dear, I am considering spending time with other girls, as you now bore me " either. I just stoppped reciprocating until there was no active relationship.

And I felt a bit grim about my cowardice, but I was EIGHTEEN and knew NOTHING about relationships. Not much about anything actually except loud music and fast cars and motorcycles. I am not proud of my behaviour then, but nor am I ashamed. It was teenaged behaviour from a teenage dirtbag ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I promise I can fly this jet
I promise I can drive a car
I promise I can do surgery
I promise I can admister medications IV
I promise I will be your faithful spouse
I promise this is my car officer !!!
I promise I will make payments on this house to you, the bank
I promise I make money to buy this expensive item you are about to hand over to me
I promise that my word is good
We promise freedom, just not in writing
We promise we won't abuse you, just not in writing on a piece of paper
I promise not to behave badly
I promise I paid to see this film
I promise to love you, but not in writing
We promise this is how much you owe the phone company
We promise, you need another job

But PLEASE .... don't ask me to put this on a piece of paper, coz it's only a man-made arbitrary piece of paper


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Hi Pepperband,

Your list is full of social constructs. Does a genius need a college degree? I would say a college degree does not guarantee genius.

Do social constructs help make society better? Of course, does that mean that there were no laws before they were written down? No. Writing came much later than language, and yet there are many examples of societies that worked well with only an oral society.

For example, slaves were not allowed to have proper marriages, and yet they many did manage have fulfilling committed relationships under the most harsh of societal standards.

The celtic society passed down their history and law through an oral tradition. They also practiced commitment through marriage. Where was the paper?

This seems like a lot of self-righteous one-up-man-ship to me. Mr_Incredible had a committed agreement to be monogamous. We did not enter into it lightly. I don't need, nor have I ever needed, permission to think for myself. I really don't care what the rest of society decides to do.

In the 50s Macarthyism was accepted and practiced by society. In the Third Reich, society accepted the mass murder of Jews. Did that make it right?

But if it is truly a righteous society it will recognize that monogamy is a righteous practice, and I support that.

"It's just a piece of paper" is a very weak support of your position.

The emancipation proclaimation is just a piece of paper <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

10Swords - Just where in what I wrote to you did I attempt to convert you to my way?

I talked about God and obedience to God. Is that somehow NOT part of "being Jewish?"

Is your offering of opinions, perhaps based in your concept of Jewish faith, TO Christians, somehow "not potentially equally offensive" to Christians if they choose to take it as some some "offensive personal attack" even though you had no such intention? I'm just not getting your injection of some supposed "Fight" between Judaism and Christianity here. Nor does your stating your opinion equate to "everyone with opinions that I don't like" amount to justification for getting mad and trying to accuse them of "attempting to convert me!" when some else offers their (equally valid are they not?) OPINIONS.

Regardless, you offered that there was no difference in cohabiting without benefit of marriage, and Jewish belief would run contrary to that belief.

Suffice it to say, you will not hear me "attempt to convert you." But I also reserve the same right you appropriated for yourself, the right to state an opinion on an open forum, especially when it is someone else's thread and the responses are directed at answering the question or discussing the topic raised by the "post originator." If you want to have your own thread and ask that I not participate, that's fine. And I would, in most cases, honor that request.

Shalom.

It was not a support of my position, I gave a great deal of other examples, and then I expounded on my own meaning for the sake of clarity.

It was an example of how some couples make a commitment of monogamy prior to the actual wedding.

I'm really wondering what your agenda is? You are taking something that is very serious and just as sacred to me, and filthing it up with your attempt to make me appear foolish.

I'm not asking you to adhere to my view. But I think you're response is close to how I would feel about a DJ. I'm only asking you to realize that some people may have a deep-seated reason for a different measure than your safe socially accepted version.

Right here: