I KNOW he did/does/sometimes cheats. I can feel it. He is too secretive, and I've felt this way for years. He listens to songs over and over too long..... Says he doesn't hear the words, just likes to sing. Says his cell phone wasn't charged when I try to call. Isn't where he says he was. Leaves work in the middle of the day very often. Guys at work are nicknaming him part timer.<BR>Mostly since he started coming home on time.)<BR>I could go on and on.<P>But the bottom line is inside, I know it. I have spent hours and hours and hours, almost excessively to try and find out. He kept an affair from his first wife hidden for 3 years, until HE confessed. The OW then, was best friends with his sister. He had the whole family lying for him. So, capable? Definitely. The whole family "romanticizes" how h life would have been better if he would just have stayed with her. That was 20 years ago! His sister keeps him informed as to her progress in life, and I have the pleasure of seeing her picture on his sister's refrigerator every time we visit! <P>I am feeling very angry, don't know what to do. I feel Honesty is the only way for me to get to even think he could be a trustworthy person. <P>As far as Giver/Taker.... When he's good he's good, when he's bad he's bad...<P>I don't believe I will ever trust him. But I do want to know the truth. He says I'm just "crazy". I know I'll never know the real truth until I find it myself.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited July 19, 1999).]

I am so sorry you are going through this. But as I have said to others, you have come to the right place. Not only are we here to help you through the rough times, cheer you through the good times, offer advice on how to save your marriage, and offer a shoulder when you need to cry, but a lot of us here are also quite talented PI's. I don't know what your financial status is, but if you can swing it, try hiring a PI. They can find out a lot (sometimes more than you really want to know). You need to know the truth. And if you H wont give it to you, do whatever you can to find it out on your own. Because once you know the truth, you can start the process of rebuilding your marriage, or the process of ending it (which ever road you choose). <P>Good luck to you.

TnT,<BR>Sorry you are here.... Like HJF said.... we are here for you, you've come to the right place. <P>Good Luck to you... <BR>Dawn D

HJF, I read your profile. At least your husband "admitted". Does he have a need for honesty? <BR> <BR>Apparently mine doesn't. I printed "How to end an affair, and put it in his pickup toolbox, with a little post it - requesting him to read it." It's missing, and this is when he decided to start coming home on time. He is missing work a lot more now.<P>This was about 3 or 4 weeks ago. I've been trying to implement some of the love deposits, and things have been better on the surface. But I don't feel anything for him but contempt. I see him gazing off, since the letter. But, I know him. He would NEVER admit unless I was close to knowing the truth anyway, on my own.<P>Good suggestion about a PI. I know what I will do. I'll make him leave until he is serious about honesty. (Boy am I demanding.... I'm just fed up)<P>Thanks..... part of this is venting/the other part is asking --- How much would it cost. I'm willing to cash in my Roth account.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited July 19, 1999).]

trustntruth, <P>In my opinion, it is not a good idea to tell your H to leave at this point. Doing so could send him into the arms of the other woman (if there is one). If you want any chance of saving your marriage, don't tell him to leave. <P>My story is a little more complicated than what you read in my profile. Last year, I had an internet affair (I never met the other man, it was strictly an emotional affair). Since the time when my H found out about the affair, we had made a new vow of honesty in our marriage. And yes, he did tell me, but not until approx. 3 weeks later...after my ex friend had already moved out of our home. I had suspicions that something had happened between them, and I had confronted him a number of times...each time he would tell me "YOU are the only woman I want to be with, I woulnd't touch her with a 10 foot pole!" The night after the OW left, my step daughter started telling me things that the OW had said to her, things that weren't true. At this point, I really started to feel that H wasn't telling me something. I was out on the deck, and H came out and asked me what was wrong. I told him that I had this terrible feeling that he was keeping something from me. By his reaction, I knew that my hunch was right. I looked him straight in the eye and said "If you don't tell me what the hell is going on here, I swear, I will pack up the kids and leave right now!" He said "Ok, I will tell you, but not here, let's take a drive." I knew at that minute that he and the OW had had sex. Thank God they didn't go 'all the way' he came to his senses and stopped, but there was sexual contact.<P>If you think that something is wrong...or constantly feel that something isn't quite right, then you should pursue the idea of hiring a PI. I have never used one, so I have no idea of the cost...but I am sure you will find at least 2 in your phone book. They will be able to tell you what you are looking at, cost wise.<P>Hang in there...you will get to the bottom of this, it may just take a little time.<P>Keep me posted...and if you need to, feel free to email me justica_@hotmail.com.<P>Heidi

Do you know how good it feels that someone doesn't call you crazy because of the suspicions?<P>It is wonderful. Thank you Heidi.<P>Maybe it is premature to kick him out, but I sure feel like it for what this is putting me through. <P>I only want the truth.... I think my marriage future is pretty sad, if I have to pay for truth.<P>Sometimes, I just need to vent. But venting isn't the only thing I can do. <P>Thank you very very much.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited July 19, 1999).]

Connie, <P>I can understand your wanting to kick him out. I had that feeling, too...the night H told me about what had happened with my ex friend. But it was only a brief feeling. <P>I was just re-reading your first post...you said <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I don't believe I will ever trust him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If you love this man, and you get the truth from him, and still want to save you marriage, then you will be able to trust him again. I only found out about my H's affair on May 2nd, but I am finding that I am regaining some of the trust that was lost. He does a lot of things to help me with this trust...calling mefrom work to let me know what time he will be home...stuff like that. Today he came home at 6:00 and said "I got off work at 3:30 today, but have been in the bosses office since then talking about my raise." Trust does come back...if you work on it.<P>First things first, though. Do whatever you have to do to get the truth. IF he is having and affair (or has had one), you will be faced with a lot of tough choices. If you want to rebuild your marriage, this is the place to start...and hopefully he will want that, too. <P>I don't think you are crazy at all. No one here thinks that. We are all, or have been, where you are now. And we are here to support you.<P>Take care!<P>Heidi

Heidi<P>Thank you, you've been there. <P>I am reacting as if he did cheat, because I am convinced, although he hasn't admitted it or I haven't caught him. I don't know if he still is or not. I am very angry inside, and totally keen to every little comment others make.<P>Just tonight we went to dinner with his sister to a place I've never been before, about 10 miles from our home, near a lake he hasn't fished at for a while. (He always goes fishing.) His sister and husband go there sometimes, and they know her, so the owner came over to talk. The owner looked straight at me, and said she never met me before, introduced herself, and told my husband it was nice to see him again. So, what do I think?.... I am so keen to every little thing. No trust.<P>I think we could make our marriage work, if there was honesty. But without honesty, I'm living in pure hell. For me to find the truth on my own, grims that chance of trust even further.<P>That makes me the most angriest. Probably that others know, and think it is over, so they won't tell me. But I'm not so sure it is over, or that it will never happen again.<P>We are back to fighting all the time, because of my suspicions. He wants me in a mental hospital! Ha.<P><p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited July 19, 1999).]

Connie,<BR> I'm in the same place you are--having that gut feeling that my H has had an affair(s), but with no proof and no admission from him.<BR> He just got up, so I can't post more now. Will post later......hang in there!<BR>SK

connie,<BR>$250-500 will get you a PI for a few 'follows'...it sounds as if he's very careful and does all his cheating from work...do you work? could you follow him yourself in the middle of the day?<BR>good luck

Connie,<BR> Last summer, it suddenly hit me that my H was most likely having an affair. Several months earlier, I had become increasingly unhappy in our marriage myself and had been puzzling over what to do about it. I literally felt that my H hated me. So....I decided that I needed to try to fix the things that I was doing wrong...try to meet his needs better, etc. I craved affection from him, so I became more affectionate toward him. I started cooking better meals instead of the slap-something-on-the-table after a long day at work. I started trying to keep a cleaner/neater house. The only thing that he appreciated was the good meals. His response to the affection? "G__D___, am I fixin' to die or something?" The sex life continued to go downhill. Finally, at the end of August, he made the remark that I looked like hell. Too-rapid weight loss and nights of no sleep, plus all the crying when he wasn't around had me looking like a mess, even though I had already done the makeover stuff. That was when I cracked and asked him if he was in love with someone else. He assured me that he wasn't cheating on me, but the way he said it was as though he was talking to one of our customers....."Oh, no sir, Mr. Jones, I did come by your house to do the repairs, but no one was home..." A few minutes later, he was telling me I was crazy and that since he'd been accused, he was going to go out and do the deed.<BR> I think he broke it off right away, though; and, I was then able to figure out WHO the OW was because of her angry looks toward both him and me and a few out-of-character remarks she made to me. I also caught my H rubbing up against her butt at a party about a month later, although he denied doing anything and pretended to be really drunk, although he wasn't.<BR> Anyway, the OW has had a (single) boyfriend for several months now (he was at that party with her), and I think that my H may be finally starting to let go of any idea of getting back with her. I still don't like his maintaining a friendship with her and don't like maintaining a sort of "friendship" with her myself (I've never confronted her or given her any indication that I suspect her, although I'm sure that my H has told her), but he would see my asking him to stop patronizing her business as being an unreasonable demand. I have to be very careful about how I say or do things, but I think he is starting to understand that he shouldn't go to her restaurant when she is there unless I am with him. I am also stocking the kitchenette at our business so that it would make little sense for him to spend money eating lunch at her establishment when he can have a good lunch at our business. <BR> And, BTW, I also believe that there were others, as he gave me trichomonas 13 years ago, when I was too naive and too emotionally fragile from losing babies to face up to it and deal with it.<BR> He got really drunk a couple of months ago and almost slipped up... He kept asking me, "How can you keep associating with.....?" and "Why do you keep associating with...?", but he never would finish the question. I think he was wondering how I could keep on going around and being so nice to the OW when I suspect her of being the OW. In case you're wondering, I just decided to "kill her with kindness" until I get some kind of proof. It just about kills me sometimes to be nice to her; but, I figure that if anything is going to start back up, I'll have a better chance of knowing if I don't show my butt.<BR> Well, H just drove up into the driveway, so I need to get off this thing.<BR> I've been handling my depression and anger by doing a little landscaping. The house is going to hell, but the yard is looking better. <BR>SK

Connie, <P>Sorry I haven't posted back to you in a few days...things around here have been just crazy. I am starting to have doubts that H has told me the entire truth (very long story, I won't bore you with it )<P>Have you come to any decisions regarding the PI? Let me know what's going on.<P>Take care!<P>Heidi

Heidi,<P>You WON'T bore me with the details. I bet your H left out some details, or he/she has made some sort of contact? <P>My H was due home from a business trip on Thursday night. On Thursday night he reluctantly made a commitment to call me at 6:30 a.m., after telling me he wouldn't be home until Friday night. He didn't call.<P>When he came home, he locked his truck up with his wallet and checkbook inside. At the first opportunity to get inside of the truck, (figured there was something he was hiding and he didn't have time to "stash" it at the office) - I got inside. He violently tore me out of the truck. I have bruises on my arm, back and top of my head.<P>The neighbors were watching. Rough weekend, and put up the pretense of "everything okay" for Saturday night dinner date with his sister. He finally admitted to having gone shopping for some clothes for himself, and "figured if I saw them, I'd just jump to conclusions". <P>He found a way to sneak his wallet and checkbook out of the truck, and hid them down inside his cowboy boots, and covered them with his dirty socks. <P>I went through his credit card receipts, and found dinner charges for both evenings he was out of town, one for $49 - the other $17.<P>He said he took some guys out from the jobsite to dinner, for 'male bonding'. I can almost believe it, but, I still hesitate because 1/2 of the clothes he bought he charged to his company credit card.<P>He brought the clothes in, and they don't fit, and he hates 100% cotton shirts, and that's what they were. I told him I would exchange them, and he was acting almost sentimental about me having anything to do with exchanging them. <P>(He always wants my opinion when we buy clothes for him, so this is out of character.<P>I know I am super sensitive to everything, keen to comments by others, check the caller id everytime a call comes in, snoopy, call him at work for a stupid excuse to see if he's there, etc. etc.<P>I haven't made a decision about the PI. 1) His job allows him to travel - maybe making it expensive to hire PI 2) If I find out truth from PI, instead of truth from H, do I even want to pursue this marriage building process anyway? <P>I am a believer, and am praying. But, wonder if I'm supposed to back away, just pray/trust and mind my own business. My emotions are so strong, am not dealing with it so well.<BR>

Golly, Still Kickin:<P>How do you do it? <P>My H claims the closest he's ever been to infidelity in this marriage is with a neighbor, who he thought was cute, and would only chat with outside once in a while.<P>When he told me he thought she was cute, she was still friendly with me.<P>About 6 months to a year later, when I would run into her - she couldn't make eye contact. I have asked my H about this, and he has no idea why she can't make eye contact, and said I'm just jealous, and crazy, etc.<P>How do you do it? Do you think he is capable of an honest relationship? I've been divorced before, and it was no picnic. So, I can understand how a person could really try to forgive and build their relationship back up. <P>But for me, I will not be satisfied unless it is built on a foundation of truth and trust. Bottom line, "honesty".<P>My husband said "Because you don't trust me, I can't tell you the truth. You have a mental problem. Who can be honest with someone like that? You'll twist the story to PROVE I did something wrong".<P>I cannot get it through his head that our relationship cannot start the uphill climb unless he is honest with me about "everything" and can't hide "anything" from me any longer.<P>Communication is so bad, he hasn't wanted to sit down at the dinner table for about a year. If we didn't have a little boy, I would pick myself up and brush myself off, and move on. It is so frustrating.<P>Love? I don't even know how I feel about him. But I'm willing to try, because I believe in family. <P>Keep kickin!<P>

*<p>[This message has been edited by cl (edited November 30, 1999).]

Dear cl<P>My job gave us 4 appointments a year free, which we took advantage of last year. The fifth session, my husband didn't show up. <P>He wasn't completely honest with the counselor, which I had a feeling she suspected, and then avoided subjects that would induce lying. <P>The only thing he wants now, regarding counseling, is for me to go get a mental evaluation. As far as he is concerned, it isn't the relationship, it is my mind. <P>I know I'm not crazy, mixed up, irrational, or paranoid. I know he is capable, and also know he is not being honest with me. The best defense is a good offense.<P>Counseling? Has anyone ever gotten anywhere in counseling to turn and liar into a saint?<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by trustntruth (edited July 19, 1999).]

My H lied to the counselor, but he was caught. Not by her but by himself later. Seeds were planted from counseling? <BR>Are you asking for a saint? Gads, girl! <BR>

I'm in the same boat as you. My H is definitely cheating, but with but I haven't been able to catch him. Confronting him only gets more lies. He'll never, ever tell. I'm at a standstill because I don't know enough about what I'm dealing with to decide to go or stay. I feel that I will "bust wide open" if I don't find out. I've made some mistakes. Rather than playing it cool, he knows that I'm suspicious now. If I hire a PI ($400) for about 10 hours of "follows", may end up yielding nothing. Open to advice<BR>Carey

cl and Carey<P>cl- I know he won't be turned into a saint through counseling.... I know! But just a person who values honesty and commitment? <P><BR>Carey- I know exactly what you mean about making mistakes, and now he knows you are on to him. But, if we are asking for honesty, shouldn't we be honest too? I don't really know if that is a mistake. <P>I have heard that the betrayer will usually leave signs behind as an unconscious means of "getting caught". Anybody else hear that somewhere? I think it is bologne. <P> H. just called me from work to "chew" me out because his business phone log was not in his truck. Said I took it. I hung up on him. Then called his voice mail back about 1 hour later, and reminded him HE was the one that brought it in the house to hide it...<P><BR>They say if you want the fire to stop, you have to quit adding fuel. I feel like (for some reason) the responsibility is mine to figure out how to get this marriage on track. Life isn't fair, and I'm not doing such a great job of "playing it cool" and not adding fuel to the fire. My anger consumes me. <P>This forum is wonderful, because living in a small town, there is nobody to talk to that will honor confidentiality. Thank you all so much.

HI Trust,<BR>I have been pondering your situation. You say that your H probably cheats out of town? Since you live in a small town, and no one has gossiped it about, it is likely out of town. <BR>So, go visit him out of town! That should not be hard. You can do it. Drop in while he overnights at the motel. Or if he usually is gone days only, drop in on him at lunch. <BR>You can make it romantic. <BR>I wish I had done something like that years ago to stop all the garbage. But I was too trusting of him, did not have suspiscions like you have. Follow your intuition, and get all into the open. I sure hope you are wrong!<p>[This message has been edited by cl (edited May 24, 1999).]