Mimi,

Something you said on your Bold Love thread about your Mom has me intrigued. If I am reading it right, you and your Mom have a strained relationship.

Here is what you wrote:
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“You can still 'love the sinner' and not take vindictive action, can even to not hold a grudge against them, but forgiveness is only in response to repentance

This is my position with my mother. I would think this could be true between you and your WW.”

”have a family member like that... who has WRONGED ME and SINNED AGAINST ME TERRIBLY...She professes herself to be a Christian, tells me that she "loves" me but has yet to say simply that she is sorry about the things that she has done to me..I "love" her, too, but I am yet to FORGIVE her...”
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This is where I sit with my mother. Apparently, my Mom blames me for all that is wrong with her life, that I have abandoned her, that I have not loved her enough.
I was not supposed to get married, to have children, but to stay with her, and take care of her as she grows older. How dare I have a child with special needs? I am even less available to her than I would have been, had I not had my youngest daughter.

I am at wits end on how to deal with her. She recently came for a visit in July, the first one in several years. My brother let his daughter come for a visit, and my oldest was home from her 1st year at college, as a result, all of the granddaughters were with her at my house. She called my 15 yo niece a b!tch <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />, yelled at both my daughters, disrupted the house. After two weeks, I finally asked her why is she so bitter and angry all the time. At first she said she will tell me on her death bed <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />, I said no, I want to know now, when I have a chance to talk to you about it. I had to hold on to her wrists to keep her from leaving the room, she accused me of elder abuse. Then the venom broke loose, about me, what I did to her, what I did not do. I could not imagine that my own mother had so much venom inside of her towards me, her only daughter out of four children <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />.

She did not talk to me for the rest of her visit, just one more week. She stayed in her room, would not eat or drink the first day. I tried several times to talk to her, she just yelled that I was abusive, I offered to get her an earlier flight out, she refused. My H tried to talk to her, she threw the A back in his face, but he stayed calm and tried to continue the discussion.

The night before she left, she graciously forgave me. She did not ask me for forgiveness. I hugged her and told her I loved her. I have not spoken to her since she left, more than 3 months ago.

How could I forgive my H for his unimaginable betrayal, lies and deceit, the awful things he said to me, yet I cannot or will not forgive my Mom. I have had to deal with my Mom’s attitude towards me all of my life, she has laughed at me, she has questioned my upbringing of the children, how I run my house, the items I buy at the grocery store etc. She has always made me feel inadequate, I almost feel as if she is jealous of me.

I am sure my Mom will not live much more than a couple of years. We are supposed to meet at my brother’s house for Thanksgiving. None of the children want to see their grandmother, I am not anxious to see her either. I do not know how to resolve this situation. Any advice would be helpful.

NOMO

simple...
your mom is unrepentent....

ease your burdon...and leave her burdon with her....

send her a card in the next week prior to thanksgiving telling her you look forward to seeing her soon...

be gracious and kind at thanksgiving...stay away from her without avoiding her....
and only be nice.....
and expect nothing...and don't rise to any bait she offers....

then kiss her goodbye....and send her a card or phone her a few weeks after thanksgiving...

tell her you hope she is well

and then go to weekly phone calls.........
kill her with kindness and let her stew in her own juices...but remove yourself...

when she attacks tell her you have to hang up...
call in a week...

you can't go to an alligator and expect to be able to pet it like a kitty..........

your mom is an alligator..

you can't change her
you can't fix anything...
and you can forgive her...because she is sad and cruel because she chooses to be...just as moms that happy and kind choose to be...........

free yourself

ARK

Thanks Ark, you are very wise. I am afraid of my reactions, I allow her to manipulate me. She will push all my buttons. If I try changing the subject, she will just yell louder. She will try her best to humiliate me in front of everyone, she has done it before.

My H and children do not want to drive the 17 hours to my brother's house for this Thanksgiving. I am willing to stay at a hotel, but I do not want to have my Mom making it unpleasant for everyone if I go. She will just talk about me if I leave during one of her rants, then my brother and his wife will have to deal with it.

I have written her a letter, have yet to mail it. I dream about her almost every night, wonder how I would feel if I have not healed this breach and she passes away.

The hardest step for me is to pick up the phone. I feel as if I have finally said to my Mom, enough, you have done enough. If I call her, I am just inviting her to continue the abuse, she will never say she is sorry. My mother has no concept of boundaries, she is my mother, therefore, is entitled to think and say whatever she wants, because she is my mother.

NOMO

don't abandon your family for your mother....

stay with your family and fill it with things that you are truly thankful for.......

why would you go to your families if your whole family isn't going...you belong with your family......

call your mom once a week...and if that is to toxic send a card/note twice a month...a note that says hi..the kids did this or that........and be done with it....

you can't change her...

and you are right...she can only manipulate you if you let her....so don't you dare let her......

there's no law that says we must have good moms and dads
or that we must suck up to them by hurting ourselves...

honor your mother by making sure she has what she needs physically to live on and do no more...........

this breach can not and will not be healed by you....
and you should move forward with knowledge and a prayer filled with hope that she finds peace...for it is right in front of her and she refuses and rebukes it.....

she is a mean person and that is her choice......

who the heck goes to a thanksgiving dinner to wreak havic...it is ironic at best..........

don't go..
have a great time with your family...

ARK

WOW!!! Can I relate to THIS ONE!!!!

I'm not suggesting this. I'm just sharing with you what I finally had to do with the help of a therapist, she was driving me so nuts!!!

The therapist walked me through each and every step of the way and every week I gave my report on what transpired between me and "Mother." In my case, the relationship was so toxic I had to set boundaries and enforce them without hesitation; I had to learn to hang the phone up on her. The bottom line, she was told by me that I could no longer be treated that way ... nor would she be allowed to disrespect my spouse, children, other family members, or even friends. I would no longer be a party to her negativity.

Of course, I got the guilt trip, the blame game, the insults and abuse, etc. So ... I had to take it further. When she started with the disrespect and did not retract, I hung up the phone! I kept doing it. I told her that I do not deserve such treatment and if she wants to be part of my life she will have to be pleasant and address her woes appropriately. If not, have not.

She still wouldn't budge. Seeing my efforts were in vain, we did not speak for nearly six years at all! I thought to myself, "What if she dies, she's old, I'll feel so guilty." But the fact is, in my case, that guilt was not mine to carry. She insisted on calling the shots. I insisted on what every human being deserves and should insist upon ... simple human decency.

My Mother or not, family member or not, I will not take that from people any more; I choose to walk away. There has been far too much abuse already. I'm a grown woman now and I have every right to choose how I will live, and I am entitled to a peaceful and loving home life and social life ... simply because I am a Child of God! EVERY human being deserves to be treated with simple respect and human decency! Before I hung up on my Mother, I did tell her I intended to hang up if she continued. That was the choice she made, to continue abusing. So I was forced to make mine.

After nearly six years, she finally called me in tears and promised to show respect for me and mine and made amends; I also made amends for my part. Prior to the help I received from the therapist, I made many mistakes trying to handle our situation. Our holiday gatherings are happy now, and although I have accepted that Mom and I will never be "close" in the way that most desire, at least things are pleasant and civil now ... and we can actually laugh and have a good time together. Maybe she will be the Mother that I have always missed and wished for before she passes. I hope so, and I never give up hope.

My best is good enough.

Ark,

I have thought long and hard about Thanksgiving, my family said they just want to stay at home. My brother will be disappointed, I have not told him of our mother’s behavior during her last visit to me.

I do love my brothers, and the only time I see them is when all the family gets together. I would hate to give up seeing them, my youngest daughter has said she wants to see her uncles, aunts and cousins, just not her grandmother. I have two brothers, my mom lives in the same city as my second brother. He and his wife are taking care of Mom, making sure she has groceries, take her to her doctor etc.

My mom will turn 75 on Christmas Eve. I was thinking of sending her a birthday card and sending the letter I have written.

I think I will send her the cards once or twice a month, I cannot gather up the will to pick up the phone, she would probably hang up on me anyway.

Thanks Ark. For the longest time, I have felt like the world’s worst daughter. For me to even stand up to her like this is so unlike me, I usually break down and beg for forgiveness. But, is it truly standing up to her by not talking to her, or am I allowing her to control me even now by not going to Thanksgiving? I struggle with this issue, and how my young adult children are viewing me and my relationship to my Mom.

My oldest D is 20 this December, my son will be 18 next May and my youngest 15 next June. My relationship with my children is so different from what my Mom and I have. Before my H’s A, I was treating and raising my kids the same way my mom raised and treated me, not quite as harshly, but the pattern of behavior was very similar to my childhood. My H’s A changed all of that, I evaluated all the relationships in my life, and decided I did not want to become my mom, no matter what happened to my Marriage.

I love and cherish all my children, am very proud of them, want them to go out and seek their future. So very different from my Mom, who thought we would buy a condo together when I graduated from college, that I would live with her even if I got married.
I like who I am, how I have raised my children, my marriage today. I guess I want everything, as I want to have a healthy, loving relationship with my Mom.

NOMO

You have gotten the some of the most wonderful responses, NOMO...

You seem to care too much what other people think of you..this probably comes from the emotional abuse from your mother, I think...

Do what's feels best for YOU and through POJA with your H..that's all that matters...to come to this place has been so FREEING for me....

I have a question, though...

You said:



Why is this? I can't see why you have any reason to feel this way..

My brothers were very understanding when I told them I could no longer handle being with Mom until she stops the abuse.

We visited at times "other than" the holidays (made our own holidays) and the holidays, for us, became our own ... or we would celebrate a day or two later when Mom wasn't there; we spent the actual holidays with my in-laws most times, no problems there. Every holiday prior, I cried and our problems destroyed them for me. No more.

I know that I am not the world's worst daughter, I used to "allow" her to make me feel that way too. But that's all part of the manipulation & control game she played; don't take the bait.

I think counseling would help. It sure helped me.

MIMI-Why do I feel like the world's worst daugther? Because my Mom always said that I made her move from NY, she lived there by herself, and I would drive there with three children, all under 6 and my H, 15 hours one way when she was ill. We did that 4 times in one year, she got so ill, could not go to work, could not hold anything down. I finally said that my H and I would lose our jobs if we continued to have to come to NY to take care of her.

So, she moved to Georgia, one year later my H got transferred to another state. My H's company had him on the fast track, we would have to move every two years. I spoke to Mom and brothers, it was agreed that Mom would go to Texas to live close to my brother as we would be moving so much.

According to my Mom, I dumped her off to my brother, could not wait to get rid of her. There is some truth to that, I could not wait to get away from her. She was so emotionally needy, was so critical of my children, how I spent my money etc. I went into therapy, of course, when the therapist suggested I put up boundaries with my Mom, I could not do it then.

So, I do feel guilty. I do feel as if I were a good daughter, I could tolerate or even ignore her harsh words and concentrate on the good in her. She can be loving and supportive, when my H had the A, she was there for me. She listened when I cried, gave me sound advice, did not urge me to divorce. She is a great mother in the bad times, terrible in the good times.

My initial question as to how I can forgive my husband but not my mother haunts me. She is my Mom, the woman who gave me life, who is not all terrible. That is why I feel like the world's worst daughter.

NOMO

2TearyEyes,

Thanks for your response. I can imagine how painful it must have been to make that decision, has your Mom ever tried to change once you decided not to make it to the family events? Do you regret not being able have family reunions?

As for therapy, I have considered it. I am not averse to getting help for myself, and as I continue to think about this and dream about my Mom, I may have to.

NOMO

Your mom is an adult - she should be able to take care of herself. Making you responsible for her care is not fair - it is a manipulation.

Now maybe you feel like your mom is ill and so you owe her more care? I would say fine if she deserved it. She uses her illness to manipulate and control and abuse her family.

You have to maybe come to terms and have peace about "abandoning" her to your brother.

Look at it like this. Would you let Hitler abuse 1000 jews or would you tell the jews that they are people and deserve to be treated with dignity and that Hitler is wrong.

Nobody deserves abuse and the abuser is wrong.

I stopped visiting my father 6 years ago. He has never repented and I will no longer expose myself or my children to his abuse. I feel guilty at times, but I won't allow myself to wallow in guilt - instead I reinforce my decision by telling myself how much I and my children benefit by not being abused.

V.

Ark is right.

Pep can tell you that I have been there, done that, and got that t-shirt and matching tote bag.

Listen to Ark. She is right on target.

Don't take a bit of your Mom's emotional sandwich. Be nice and cordial but control your expectations and thus your reactions.

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mimi, I can understand this. Your Mom with her *Mom's guilt* never made you feel this way?

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Yes, it was extremely painful. Age 22 is when I broke it off, after so, so, much for so, so, long.

No, my Mom is very stubborn; so as far as family events, she used my "non-attendance" to further her aggression by "bashing me" vocally to the rest of the family and feeling justified by it because I hung up and resisted her "baiting." (That was expected beforehand, so I was already "armed" with strength and was able to accept that too).

No, we do not have formal family reunions (never have) but we did keep in touch and got together regularly. Now that all is okay, we all get together now. I have a strategy in place though, should she begin again.

The counseling really helped me, I felt so guilty letting go too ... and also like I was a failure and not a good daughter (I believed those lies she told me about me). However, it was necessary for me to do it ... not only for myself, but for everyone around me that was suffering because of it (my husband, my children, my friends ... she didn't hold back and hurt anyone and everyone's feelings that I had contact with). I had a lot of support because I had a lot of witnesses; in addition, she had other people she "victimized" with her abuse besides me. Like you, I also suspect jealousy. I am the youngest of four children and the only girl. She had me later (a huge gap of years between me and my brothers) and I can't help but wonder if I was a last-ditch effort to save her marriage, and then Dad cooed only over me ... then left ... from what I understand.

I have forgiven her, even before we made our amends. Why? Because I know she is a very sick person and much more miserable than she could ever have made me. Think about it, feel sorry for her, pray for her ... how could a mother be so cruel unless something was very wrong inside.

I have no regrets. When I stopped allowing it, I reminded myself that I have a wonderful immediate family, wonderful in-laws, and great friends ... and that sometimes, water IS thicker than blood. But is that really so terrible? Others gave me support and became "my family."

I like to think of it as "friends are the family we choose".

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Sunnyva39,

I understand theoretically, what I need to do. This is a type of Plan B for my mother, to preserve my love for her. It is a little late, I am tired and exhausted and dread family gatherings because of her behavior which is mostly directed towards me. She has let her daughters in law have it also, throwing tantrums, accusing them of theft, of being slovenly or having affairs. My brothers are also tired of dealing with this, we have all three gotten together and talked to her about her behavior. This was a Thanksgiving weekend, about 6 years ago. Nothing changed, she felt ganged upon and disrespected.

I have come to terms with abandoning her to my brother, my youngest has Muscular dystrophy and has had several recent life threatening issues to deal with. I do not have the strength to deal with both my Mom and my daughter, take care of my family, and work a full time job. Mom recognizes this, and is more resentful, that I have a real reason why she cannot impose on me more.

Yes, the abuser is wrong. I was wrong when I tried to do to my children what my Mom did to me. However, I was able to recognize it, change and now have a much healthier relationship with them.

My Mom has never taken responsibility. She said her mother died when my mom was only 6, she did not have a role model of what a Mom was supposed to be. She frequently tells me that I have judged her harshly, that she tried her best.

I have asked her to go for therapy, but my Mom loves the role of victim. Look at me, what a terrible life I have and my only daughter has turned her back on me. She will live off this for a while.

I will send her the letter at Christmas and maybe I will have more courage to mail her letters once a month, just giving small updates on the children.

I am glad you had the strength to stand up for yourself and your family. I am sorry your Dad is so abusive, and cannot accept that he has to change in order to have a relationship with you and your family. It is so sad, our parents are aging and will not change. Time is running out.

NOMO

NOMO

Susan,

You are so right about friends. My husband and my best friends have seen us through so much, our triumps and heartaches. My brothers are so far from me, that my friends are my adopted family.

NOMO

NOMO:

I'm sorry that I haven't gotten to you in depth. My relationship with my mother is the main issue that I have been struggling with lately. So thinking about your thread and how to respond has been helpful to me...

You said:



I forgave my H because he REPENTED...asked for my forgiveness..has acknowledged being a SINNER..engaged in EVIL ways...

My mother, like your M, has not really asked for my forgiveness...

I have gained a lot from the perspective offered in BOLD LOVE...

I an open to forgiving my mother..I LOVE HER for all the good things that she has done for me...However, I do not think it is either in HER BEST INTEREST of MINE for us to be actively involved in each others lives....

The authors of BOLD LOVE would interpret this as a GIFT OF LOVE... It is loving to help work towards leading your mother/my mother towards Godly ways.. If we too quickly FORGIVE or ACCEPT their EVILNESS, we are really not helping them..not leading them towards GOODNESS. It is TOUGH LOVE..having them suffer the consequences of their transgressions..withdrawal of the favor of a relationship with you and your family...

According to their viewpoint, FORGIVENESS GIVEN WITHOUT REPENTANCE selfishly helps the OFFENDED but is not helpful to the OFFENDER.

Make sense?

This gets to me, too. My mother is very sick...

It helps to make clear to her in some way that lack of reconciliation with you is her choice. Be open to the reconciliation to her dying day...

You can communicate your openness and continued LOVE for her in a letter or card..I don't think this needs to be face to face...

I've also learned that this is not in our control. Who knows, NOMO, you might die before your mother...she may not last two years...she may die tomorrow....

My father died suddenly while on vacation in another state..I had not made amends with him..Standing over his casket, though, I found myself miraculously FORGIVING HIM as if GOD had taken all of that away from me..in the end, I decided what does it matter...I live now with memories of all the GOOD TIMES we shared together and I rest assured that HE IS IN A BETTER PLACE....

Again, here is my FAITH..I believe as long as I maintain faith and try to do my best to live a righteous life-that it WILL ALL WORK OUT TO THE GOOD...

Mimi,

Thanks so much for replying. I appreciate you trying to help me come to terms with my relationship with my M. You are so right, my mom could die tomorrow, two years from now, or I can pass away before she does.

I realize the breach may not be healed, and that I am not to be held responsible for even healing it. My mom has not respected me as a woman for all of my adult life, I am not responsible for her actions.

It has taken me a long time to accept this. I am not responsible for my mother's happiness, she is.

My brother asked me to come for Thanksgiving, to celebrate mom's 75th Birthday, similar to what we did for Dad over the summer. I have refused, I am not willing to put myself in the same place with her. It will only end badly, she will denegrate me, and will not appreciate the fact that we would have to drive 17 hours to celebrate her birthday.

I will write her notes as you and Ark have suggested. I will leave the phone for when I feel I can pick it up and hold a discussion with her.

Once again, thanks. I am feeling some peace with my decision to leave her out of my life for now. On my thread in recovery, I have revealed more of the relationship with my parents. I will quote the relevant passages.
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My parents marriage was my role model. My father was very dominating, my Mom would try to stand up for herself. She would goad my father on, and he would end up beating her. It took me a long time to realize their destructive patterns of behavior. My parents would fight, mom would sleep with me in my bedroom, my father would drag her back to his bed and proceed to rape her. The walls were thin between bedrooms, I could hear everything.

For a long time I resented and almost hated my Father. My mom was the only one who was abused by him, and he was not a substance abuser or a drunk. There were just these unhealthy patterns of behavior, they would argue, Mom would keep pushing his buttons, he would beat her. I remember as a very young child standing in front of my Mom and begging my Dad not to beat her. He would try to reach around me to hit her, never once hitting me.

Now I realize my mom was almost as much to blame as my Dad. She allowed me to protect her, to witness her rapes. The roles were reversed, I became the protector. This pattern continued until we immigrated to this country, and my Mom finally filed for divorce.
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NOMO