I am so frustrated!! I went to MC today. Discussed this issue ot denial and C suggested that maybe we should use a different description just because WS gets so defensive about this being an "affair". I said that I do not want to call this anything other than what it is. He agreed. When I spoke WS, I asked him what he would call it then. He said nothing. I said well, it was some type of relationship. NOPE he says, it wasn't any kind of relationship. I just can't through to him.

I asked him if this relationship was OK, why the hiding and all the directions they each gave each other when to call which number so as to not get caught. He just says, it was not a secret. Even when he reads the emails about call at this time my wife is at work or she says don't call at this time my husband is home, he maintains that this was completely out in the open. What is this type of behavior about, really?

I DID call her husband today. I left a message and so far no call back. MC agreed that telling her husband is a good idea too. I just wish I had a work or cell number because she can erase the messages at home.

Thanks for listening. It really helps
I'll keep trying

sickofthis: All Wayward Spouses lie, deny, twist words and just generally treat you like you are stupid. They will tell you that you didn't see what you saw, that you didn't hear what you heard, and you didn't read what you read -- and then get highly offended and blame YOU if you don't buy their ridiculous bullcr*p.

They all do this. All of them. And it does not stop unless and until they come out of the "fog" and recommit to the marriage.

They do this because they are completely in denial about what they have done and usually, at some level, absolutely terrified of you knowing the truth. So they will do ANYTHING to try to cover their own [censored] no matter how completely stupid and outrageous it sounds and then try to blame YOU when of course you aren't buying any of it.

It's one of the most infuriating parts of this. I can only say: Don't power struggle this, as I made the mistake of doing. Just go on calling things what they are, as you told the counselor you would do (good on ya for that!) and ignore WH's idiotic explanations and word games as much as possible. Don't try to get him to agree with you. He won't -- no WH will. That's a waste of time. Only an H committed to the marriage will see it the way you do.
Mulan

I feel a bit more in control today. The morning was rough but a great friend stood by my craziness this morning and I will love her forever for it. I cleaned the house up for the first time in 2 1/2 weeks. This is quite the big deal as I am a perfectionist as far as my housekeeping is concerned and I haven't done much since exposure day. I also made a reservation at a nice hotel for tomorrow. I will treat myself. WH doesn't seem to like that I am taking off, but some serious me-girl time is needed. i plan on taking a bubble bath, reading, journaling and maybe a facial. Can't wait.

I have decided after reading here today (thank you all) that I am done trying to convince him that this is an EA. Really, it is what it is and it is futile to argue over it. Facts are facts.

I never heard back from her husband. Someone gets the messages, just don't know who. Don't know what the next step on that will be but I will keep trying.

Ah, first half-way human feelings I have had since this began...I will have internet in the hotel so I will check in with you all.

God bless and thank you

sick, why not refer to it as a baloney sandwich? Since he doesn't want to call it what it is, two can play at this game. Tell him from now on you can call his affair a baloney sandwich if that will make him feel better.

Why are you in a hotel?

I really liked your baloney sandwich comment. It made me smile and I think I will use this with him.

I am going to a hotel tomorrow. I have an overwhelming life right now. Running a business, 4 boys and a recent discovery of husband's baloney sandwich. My oldest son informed me last week that he may be in Iraq soon. He is a Marine. I want to get away for one night, clear my head, journal and be by myself to sort out my plan A.

ROFL

ah, gotcha. Hope you can relax in your hotel room. Any chance you could install some spyware on his computer before you go?

ouchie on the son. My stepson just came back a couple of months ago after a year in the Green Zone, so I can relate to your fears.

All types of spy-type stuff taken care of. He is supposed to be working on the NC letter while I am gone.

So, glad your SS is back safe and sound!!!

Sick of this,
In another forum I relayed that my WS also denied that her first emotional affair was such. Then after at least two (but who knows, she lies continuously) physical affairs, I got tired of trying to make the distinctions in my communications to her, and just lumped them all under the category of infidelities. The dictionary concurs.

We attempted to talk to today. He is very remorseful, says it was a stupid thing to do, that it will never happen again and that he wants us to move forward and work everything out. I have no doubt that this is how he feels. He agrees to write the NC letter. He still maintains that this was not an EA, that he was just BSing with her all that time. He feels bad about it and wants to work things out.

I just wish he would see this more clearly.

sick of this. I had a similar experience. Found out that my wife had been seeing her old boyfriend and lover from college when she visited her parents. Dinners, lunches, correspondence. She even had his photograph. It had been going on for a very, very long time. I found out after he stayed at our home for a few days introduced to me as "an old friend." They were way too comfortable together and I got jealous. I started snooping around, found old letters from him to her and his photograph in one of the envelopes, confronted her and she told me who he was. She also insisted she had done nothing wrong because "nothing happened" meaning there was no sex. I think that's true, but I don't know. Irregardless I was shocked. I went nuts and threatened a divorce. Faced with the loss of her marriarge she quickly agreed to cut off contact with him.

Just like you I really struggled with her denial of doing anything wrong. I thought maybe I was overreacting. I told her she had had an affair without sex. (This was before I had read about EA.) She denied that. She finally admitted she should have told me about it, to which I responded "no, you shouldn't have been in contact with him. There shouldn't have been anything to tell me about." She sent him a goodbye letter that I read and mailed. It's been 15 months since DDay. I don't believe there has been any further contact between them. She knows that if there is, and I find out, I'll get a divorce. It really bothers me that she denied that she did anything wrong, other than not tell me about him. It makes it harder to forgive.

I had to make a decision whether to continue the marriage. We have three children, two grown and one in high school. I concluded a divorce would destroy my family. So I'm trying to forgive. I haven't yet been able to do that. I used to think about it all the time, now I think about it only about one-half of the time. I guess that's progress. You need to try to look long range on this, control your anger, and do what's best for you. Try to be rational. It's very hard. Good luck.

We too have children and that is the primary reason through my initial shock and rage that I didn't walk out the door myself. While I am fighting for my marriage, or course, the fact that he believes it was merely "inappropriate" and "stupid" does make it harder to forgive.

I asked him if I gave him so articles on EA (which he still denies exist) would he read them? He said yes, but I heard relunctance in his voice. He promised to write the NC letter on Friday but still hasn't done it. I am certain that there has been no contact on his part but I am not at all certain that this won't flare up again with the NC and more exposure. I think he doesn't want to write the letter or read because he will have to admit this to himself??

Anyway, I still have not been able to get through to her husband. I will keep trying though. I am still scared but very committed to seeing that through.

Surprised, the hard part of the forgiveness for me, and maybe you too, is they really don't think did much to be forgiven. VERY frustrating, isn't it? Another concern I have then, if this is/was no big deal, what's the next line he may cross in another friendship? It leaves me pretty fearful of our future.

sick of it all. This is pretty much exactly what I went through. It took my wife three months to write the letter because it was so embarrassing to her. When she read the articles on EA she concluded they didn't apply to her situation. The only thing she'd admit was that she should have told me about him. She claimed the reason she didn't tell me was that she didn't think I'd mind. I think it was just the opposite.

But I think this is true for both of us --- our spouses both knew they were doing something wrong. They may not be able to admit it, but they knew it was wrong because everyone knows that it's wrong for a married person to be in secret contact with an old boyfriend or girlfriend. And they knew that. Period. End of argument. So, we don't necessarily need to get confessions.

For whatever its worth, I didn't worry about contacting his wife. (I realize people have advised you to do so.) If he fails to respect her goodbye letter, then I'll deal with him. But he's not my real problem. My wife is. She's not to contact him, and if he contacts her she needs to tell me immediately. If she contacts him or doesn't tell me he contacted her, the marriage is over. And that's not an idle threat, I mean it. If my wife disrespects me any further, then I don't want to be married to her, children notwithstanding.

It is hard to forgive. And like I said I haven't done it yet. I've read a lot of books and articles about affairs and they all say that forgiveness is a gradual process. I agree that it seems harder when the other person won't confess, but that's where we are. People do make mistakes and I'll give my wife this one. She's not a bad person. I will have to say that she has tried very hard over the last 15 months to make it up to me and I appreciate that. I have also worked hard to be a better husband because I probably had a role to play in her transgressions.

I think your husband needs to do two things (1) send her a goodbye letter that you read and mail and not have any contact at all (if she contacts him he has to tell you) and(2) work like heck to be a better husband than he's been. If he does those two things, then I think you need to put on a brave face, hide your tears and be a good wife to him. Perhaps this tragedy you bring you closer together and you will have a wonderful life forever.

I don't know. We both keep LBing left and right.

I don't want my marriage to end but I just can't seem to let go of my feelings either. I took some time for me on Saturday and WS (EA) did not like that I was gone. I think it scared him a bit, but not sure. I only know he didn't like it. I really needed it, enjoyed and came home relaxed and happy. We had the first nice time since Dday 3 weeks ago. Everything was fine up until tonight.

He works the night shift and I work days. The boys are in soccer and his boss is allowing him to leave work to watch for the one hour. Maybe it was because we haven't even stood next to each other since soccer started (3 weeks ago), maybe it just brought back the memory of the discovery/exposure, I don't know but I was rather cool when I saw him. While we were there I found out that he forgot the MC session AGAIN (forgot last week too). Then he asked where my wedding ring was. I asked him if he had written the NC letter yet, he was irrated and said not yet, but I will. That was it. I stood in another area (childish I know, but I was so annoyed). We never spoke again for the rest of practise, we parted, he on his way to work and me home with the boys. I'm sure we will be "not speaking" for days again now.

The last couple of days everything felt great, all of a sudden I feel the rage all over again. Because he STILL maintains there was nothing to all of the emails and calls and sexual discussions, I think he thought I "just got over it". Anyway, I don't even know what to do with all my emotions. We just took 10 major steps back. Part of me just wants to walk, but I know deep down that's really not what I want. I don't know, I just feel like a mess again.

sickofthis,

I'm in a similar situation. My WW started acting really strange BEFORE D-Day. The wierdness was enough to push me into a major LB prior to D-Day. After the first confrontation, I backed down and she made a few huge but halfhearted attempts to connect; during one of them she did a big LB and I came right back with an even bigger one (it was sexual).

So I've shot myself in the foot once before D-Day, and once after. I really want to do a plan A for myself for a few months, but I despair if I have enough strength to avoid the big LBs. It's scary. Can I do it? I think I need to try.

sick of this,

Sorry I didn't get back to you yesterday. I was out of town. Everything you are feeling is very normal. You can't deny your emotions. I blew hot and cold with my wife for at least 6 months. I wanted to hurt her and I wanted her to cry. It infuriated me when she claimed "nothing happened." I'd cool off and tell her I forgave her and would never mention it again, and then the emotions came back and I'd start to argue with her again. But, despite everyting, I did try to get closer to my wife, and we have become closer. If you want to save your marriage, I think you should do the same. Even though our spouses were wrong, there is only so much punishment they can stand before they walk away from the marriage.

I did a lot of reading. I copied a couple of pages (pp. 288-290) from Frank Pittman's book "Private Lies" and carry them with me to read again when I get angry. I'll quote a few lines. "If you are the one who is being betrayed, it is horribly unfair, but your marriage is in your hands. This may be the most important job you will ever have to do. Don't mess it up by carrying on, indulging in your hour on the stage. . . Try not to let your anger or your guilt paralyze you; you have more important work to do. You must convey your hurt, which is a far more hospitable emotion than anger, so that your spouse knows you are calling for closeness, not distance, as the reparative action. . . As you explore this with your adulterous mate, who is probably terrified, try to remember that you are the sane partner of this marriage."

I don't believe you want to divorce, or you would already be gone. He's probably never going to admit to you that he had an EA --- my wife didn't. But he knows he did something wrong and he was way over the line. You don't need to tell him anymore. He knows. You'll be able to deal with it over time. Some days you'll step backwards, some days forward. But you'll get better over time. But he has to cut things off 1000% with the OW.

Thank you for your kind words and the quote from the book was very helpful. We had another big arguement this morning. He is just so ANGRY and I don't get it. He yelled, swore, called me names...blaming me for the most ridiculous things...old behaviors that he hasn't shown in awhile. When I told him he was inappropriately displaying his anger he just got madder and said more hurtful things.

I am at a loss over all of this.

sickofthis - my WH also started acting after he saw OW at a company lucheon and her H was with her. He started saying things he had not said for a long time - I was sexually unappealing ect. I knew he had seen her immediately and confronted him about it. I stated you are still in contact and I know it. He did tell me he had seen her and that was a first for the truth. So I would say yours has been in contact again. Mine went on strike for 5 weeks and things have become like they used to be - I am amazed at how wonderful he can be. Now he is back to work as of today so I am waiting to see if things change. Be ready and be prpared. I hope I am wrong. Mine also denies EA- they were just friends. What mine does not know yet - is that I had sent her an e-mail from his account asking her to meet him for dinner. She refused and said I told you I would not do that. So I know it was him persueing.. Makes me sick. I wish you well. It is time to be stronger then you ever have been. You must stop the LB's and make yourself the appealing woman. No more LB's -be loving, patient, caring, show him all that you can be. Be fun and wonderful as a mother and wife. Its hard kinda like being in a play or soap opera. But it does work.

He is trying his best to blame-shift. He cannot face the fact that he simply got caught with his hand in the cookie jar. He cannot face the fact that instead of being a wonderful, special, outstanding man, he's shown himself to be just another cheating jerk who lies to his wife and f*cks around on the side.

Just like so many of the other guys he knows.

That's why he is in denial.

That's why he is so angry.

That's why he's directing his anger at *you.*

He is caught in the conflict between the special "great guy" image he has of himself and the reality of being cold busted being just another a garden-variety [censored].

Nothing makes a bullsh*tter more furious than when people stop buying his bullsh*t. And that's what you've finally done.

Have you asked yourself how much else he's lied about, and how long he's been bullsh*tting you and getting away with it?

He is panicked because suddenly the lies and the bullsh*t aren't working any more. The panic is coming out as fury and it's directed at you because you're the one holding up the mirror.

I'm very, very familiar with the story. I live with it.

Don't take his blame. Just tell him these were HIS choices, not yours, and you will not accept any blame nor any responsibility for his selfish and destructive choices. You may be willing to work with him if he wants to be a full-time partner to you, but you will NOT take any blame for what HE has chosen to do.

Be prepared for him to fight you tooth and nail about doing ANYTHING to make the situation better. Why? Because if he changes his ways, that would be the same as admitting his behavior before was wrong. And some WS would much, much, much rather get a divorce than have to face up to what they really did -- much less step up and make it right.

They will not care how much collateral damage they cause. Their self-image is the most important thing to them. If you dare to mess with it by holding up the mirror and refusing to believe what he wants you to believe, you will become the enemy.

This has got to be the toughest kind of WS to deal with. I have not found anything that will get through to mine. I gave him a copy of *Buyers, Renters and Freeloaders* and he was INFURIATED at being "labeled" a Freeloader -- even though the book describes him to a T.

Which is, of course, why it made him so angry.

If anyone knows how to deal with this sort of massively resistant WS, please let us know. Being nice and supportive and understanding just lets them off the hook. They go right back to cake-eating and acting like it was all the BS's fault -- like they're doing you a tremendous favor by staying with the BS.

[color:"red"]STOP [/color]

if he loses his temper this way when you have not been yelling at him ... hold up your hand and softly say [color:"red"] STOP [/color]

if he does not immediately stop ... get away ... do not just stand there and take it ...

leave

no second warning .... do not say "Stop or I will leave" ... you just go ....

if he follows you go to a neighbor

DO NOT ALLOW HIM TO CURSE YOU

[color:"red"] STOP [/color]

and you do this everytime .... no negotiations

just say [color:"red"]STOP [/color] holding up your hand ....

like training a dog <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I had to do this with our son ... and I got pretty darn good at it