Drita,

Yes, I've cracked the bible open several more times, and I am trying to pray daily. I am aware that anxiety is a side effect of all SSRI's, and I've experienced it before while first starting Celexa and Paxil (the latter, by the way, was a total NIGHTMARE--NEVER AGAIN!). It just didn't seem to last this long.

The problem with listening to God, or anyone for that matter right now, is that this anxiety is making it very difficult, and my thoughts are bouncing all over the place. (I have a severely ADHD daughter, and from time to time I see ADD tendencies in me. Right now, I think I'm experiencing them in a major way. My thoughts derail about every 15 seconds. I can even be in the middle of a prayer to God, and all of a sudden I realize I've taken a completely different path.)

LL

So your decision has NOT brought you peace, is that what I'm hearing?

I think you need to find some place or some how to be still.. a closet, your car...something... and get right with God. Therein lies all of your solutions if you ask me!

Talk of any marriage after 5 months scares the you-know-what out of me. Especially in a long distance situation. I think you would agree with me if you think about it. It's not time and you have too much going on right now. Under perfect conditions we all know marriage is tough! With your daughter and your mental health, and his issues...no way. And if it ever does come to that, I would suggest some pre-marital counseling.
Your statement above:
"No, he's not perfect. If he were, he'd probably still be married. But after being married to an alcoholic for 19 years, he looks pretty darned normal."
Look at this...this is SO scary!
It's like saying, "well, he doesn't hit me, sounds pretty good!"
UGH!!!
(I can't think of anything more to describe my fear for you!)

I certainly understand what you are saying. And I respect it. And I agree with it.

However, I think that you do not realize how such a statement sounds to a guy. Saying to a guy: "No, we wont have sex. So what? You wont die without sex, will you?" sounds to him about the same as: "Yeah, I slept with my former GF last night. So what? You wont die if I get sex outside of our relationship, will you?" would to a woman.

Yes, of course it is OK to turn a guy down, but telling him that he wont die without sex is totally inappropriate. It simply invalidates his ENs. It wholly dismisses or minimizes his needs, his wants, his desires. Do NOT minimize a guy's need for sex.

When turning a guy down, a woman really needs to treat it in a seriously, and not in a cavalier manner. Similar as if she would want him to quit his job and move closer to her, or discussing how many kids they'll have, and which house they'll buy. Minimizing a guy's needs does not earn his partner any points; validating his needs does.

Okay, here's an opportunity for you all to tell me I'm completely nuts. But seriously, the more I've thought on the long-distance marriage thing, the more it makes sense (of course, if he doesn't love me or won't consider it, it's irrelevant) I'm not presenting it to him right this second, or even this week. It's just that I'd like your opinions as to if it's something I could at all feel comfortable bouncing off him for his input sometime down the line a ways, if we are fortunate enough to get ourselves back on track, and if he doesn't prove to be too selfish (which should become apparent rather quickly). Or is a decision of "when to get married" best just left to a guy, and not to be meddled with by the woman?:

See if I'm nutty about my reasons...

1) I love him. I truly am at a point where I'd commit my life 100% to him if in a couple months he asked.

2) We could freely share ourselve and express our love for each other with God's blessing.

3) While we've not "dated" for that long (interacted for 5 months as of next Monday), we've spent a considerable amount of time with each other considering we've basically been living as a couple each weekend and then seeing each other every Thursday night. We've spent a lot of time determining if we were compatible in several areas. I've spent a lot of time with his family, who likek me. It's been going well.

4) The bible says it's better to marry than to burn with passion. If it was a dumb idea, God wouldn't have allowed it in his divinely-inspired word.

5) His 12-yr-old son has asked at least 1/2 dozen times in my presence if he's going to marry me. We dodge the question. But if he cares about me and was thinking "future" anyway, why not give the son (who really likes me, btw), a little stability--show him that someone is staying in Dad's life for a change.

6) His daughter who turns 16 next may may challenge her mom for custody, because she wants back in her old school system which BF is still in. Would it be more in his favor in the court's eyes to be single and dating, or to be married?

7) Being married but seeing each other only on weekends and one weeknight for a while should make us appreciate each other and our time together all that much more.

8) It could be quite fun to work on "building the anticipation" for a few days while we couldn't see each other, knowing that we would be able to release all that tension on the weekend or on our weeknight together.

9) Marriage success: I firmly believe that length of time dating, while important, is less a predictor of marriage success than other things. If length dating was the best predictor, we wouldn't have so darned many divorces anymore. I think (and studies prove) that better predictors are age at the time of marriage, education level, and whether the two people are spiritual or non-spiritual. I think we set well in these categories, and also the category of being married long-term before and not being the ones who chose to leave the marraige.

10) Other compatibility areas: Both are professiong Christian. Both have conservative political beliefs. Both have older children; neither want more children or to raise small children. He's close to his parents; I'm not as close to mine, either emotionally or in terms of actual distance--less chance of struggles at holidays with who to visit, etc.

11) He needs health insurance, as through the school he teaches at it's very expensive and he's opted to take the cash payout instead because money is tight when he's paying child support and 1/3 of his daughter's college. I could put him on my family plan at zero cost.

12) I'm not a good money manager. I need help managing--need reigned in. He is good managing money, and also is used to being in the lead in that area in his marriage.

13) I can rattle off 4-5 'non-traditional' marriage situations right now in people I know personally that are working. One is my assistant, whose spouse travels all week every week. Another is a colleage who has lived halfway across the US from his wife for over 6 months now as she tries to sell their house in the south. She travels weekly as well, so they see each other every couple weeks. Another is a woman I know who lives in Northern IA on weekends with her husband on the farm they plan on retiring on, but drives into the city and lives with her daughter all week while she works. Then there's the woman I work with who met and married her husband all within 3 months and they've been together over 20 years and are still happy. Tradition in the sense that they live together; but not traditional in the length of time they took to get there.

I don't think it's a crazy idea to marry sooner than 2 years, even if it meant a distance marriage for a while. Yes, crazy to marry at 5 months, when we have these issues. Iwas thinking more like 9-12 months. And if I'm just a FWB, then obviously it won't happen anyway. I never really thought that way, because he always HAS talked future with me...like what we could do and where we could go live years down the road when we wanted to get away from the cold Iowa winters, or places we could visit, etc. I never got the idea that he saw me as just someone to fill his time and make him feel good. But maybe it's possible??

LL

Have you finished "Boundaries in Dating"? I am enjoying it so much. I learn something new about myself every night.

One thing I've learned (realized) is that I thought I could've married several guys I've dated. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> scary!

I have to agree with Drita - this is the biggest pile of rationalizing of red flags that I have seen here in a long time. Just because your ex was awful, someone else who is "better than ex" is not automatically Mr. Right.

I know you will say that I am taking this out of context, that your BF is so many other things to you, but you have relied on this argument ("he is better than ex") a number of times in the past few months, and that should be a warning to you. Your partner-choosing skills still need some honing, I think.

Again, I know you'll disagree with me, but I don't mind being the broken record as long as I think there might be some small chance that at least part of what I am saying will make you think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I do not see all that much compatibility with you and your BF, I think you are force fitting him into your image of "Mr. Perfect", and I think the distance makes it easy for you to "date" and accommodate each other without really getting to know each other.

I think the "long distance marriage" is the absolute worst thing you can do, because you would be marrying someone you don't know. I would hope that before you decide to marry anyone, you would spend much time dating them while living in the same city, where you can have daily interactions, instead of the carefully orchestrated weekly (or even twice weekly) meetings -it is way too easy to not be yourself for those events.

I know you will disagree, but I have been in long distance relationships and have seen how easy it is to have those fun mini vacations, and how quickly things change once you are in a daily interaction. And all the nightly phone calls and long e-mails do not make up for the distance.

Again, I urge you to reexamine your motivations in dating, as well as your standards for what you want in a man. It should be much much more than "he is not an abusive alcoholic, like ex". I know you think there is much more to BF than that, and that is good, but I think you are making him out to be superman, and I am pretty sure that you are missing red flags left and right.

AGG

Drita,

I do see where you're coming from in a way on the marriage thing. I'm not saying marry tomorrow. But I was saying maybe 9-12 months, depending on how things went. My daughter IS an issue, and that's another reason I see the L/D marriage option as a good one for a while. She turns 18 in about a year and a half. While she won't cease to be my daughter at that point, the way I am able to deal with her will change because she will legally be an adult. The distance thing would give us a chance to get to that point without him having to live it day-in and day-out.

My mental state--it's an issue right now--darned anxiety! Marrying while I'm struggling with this anxiety--yep, dumb! His issues--I think I have a tendency to make things come out wrong. Nobody is perfect, that's why I said that. I don't want people thinking that I see him as this totally faultless person. If he'd never done anything wrong in his marriage, I would guess his wife wouldn't have left him for someone else. Obviously there were breakdowns. But he truly is a pretty good guy, from everything I've experienced so far. And no, he's not abusive, he rarely drinks, he's never touched drugs, he's only slept with 5 women in his life, he shares my basic beliefs (except on the sex issue), he treats his parents with respect and he is very close to them, and he's worked his fanny off to stay in his kids' lives for the 5.5 years he's been divorced, sticking with the schedules for visitation and attending pretty much all school and sporting events they're involved in.

AG,

I haven't once said to him "you know, no one dies from lack of sex" (though I may have thought it). I know how tough it is. I know it's a high EN for him. That's why I'm trying to work through this with him and come up with things we agree with, that yet don't drive him nuts. I know his needs are real and he's struggling to come to terms with not getting them met in the way he's used to.

LL

LL - You are getting way ahead of yourself. It is too soon for you to even be thinking about marriage.

That being said, I think there are lots of different marriage compromises that work out just fine. When my WH and I were planning on marrying, we had a problem. He lived in a 4 bedroom home with 3 kids, and 2 step-kids that came weekends and summers. I lived in a 3 bedroom home with my 2 boys.

We decided to get married, and he would stay in his home, and me in mine. All of our friends and relatives thought we were crazy. But it worked out fine.

We did this happily for 4 years. When the kids got older, they moved into my home, and I moved in with my husband. That worked fine for 4 years. Then his kids both got married and moved out. Mine still live there.

When the time comes for you to marry, you can think outside the box.

You are <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />.

All your reasons amount to two things: be able to have sex, and keep you from losing him.

Trying to marry someone as an effort to save the relationship is a disaster in the making.

AGG

I have a question and I have been reading this all along - Do you think - that maybe you have thrown the no sex out there - because you want him to marry you -and now you are saying that you will only have sex if you are married and now you are contemplating getting married long distance just so you can have sex it makes no sense to me.... If these were in fact your boundaries - NO sex then you wouldn't have had sex with this guy or the other guy for that matter.. I think that you think that you shouldn't have sex - then you find someone attractive and one thing leads to another and you have sex - then you stop and say oh no I cannot do that until I am married - so maybe I need to get married..... You are putting yourself through this heartache and for what... You love this man and you have made somewhat of a committment to him and you had sex with him and you enjoyed yourself - and he enjoyed himself - now you are saying NO we have to stop - god wouldn't want it.... Christian or not.... You are confusing.... -- I gotta tell you if I were him - I would probably be thinking wow - this is really a hard relationship - right from the get go.... It shouldn't be this hard... You either need have sex or not to have sex - not have a little or have alot then say NO you cannot have anymore.... That is wierd... I dont' really think you are gonna get struck by lightening because you had sex..... And I think you need to accept that you think you should not have sex but you had it... So let it go... If you love him and think it might work - then just enjoy it - stop putting yourself and this guy through this and trying to analyze everything....... You are 40 - with a troubled daughter a loser exhusband - it is not the end of the world... and I am sure most people will not agree with me... but Realistically - most people don't even get married anymore - they just set up house... They still believe in god - they just have made adult decisions to live that way - and I am not saying it is right or wrong... But really you say you believe one thing - but completely do another .... So think about that....

Faith,

Yes, I've read most of the book now, though not in order. I actually may at some point join your reading discussion. And I did think it was a good book overall.

AGG,

First, just a curious question, knowing that you guys haven't spent time with my BF and I. What do see as incompatable (besides the no-sex thing) and perhaps now his 2-year's before marriage idea?

As for our weekly meetings, they haven't been to carefully orchastrated. Because neither of us have lots of and lots of money, we don't "date" very often in the traditional sense of going to movies and dining out. We have been spending most of our time at his place watching movings, talking, cuddling, doing stuff we're not going to do anymore, hanging at his parents' place, playing games with his son, going to church on Sunday mornings...just normal "living" stuff like that. Same at my place except that there really aren't kids around so there's been more "alone" time. He sees me all goofy looking in my jammies and messed up hair and no makeup. He's watched me clean house. I've watched Saturday and Sunday football with him. Our "mini vacations" have actually been weekends away.

Believer,

Again, not saying "marry me tomorrow". Just saying perhaps consider it sooner than the 2-year mark. Yes, our current circumstances that I placed us in make a little bit of the difference. They may be prompting my thoughts of moving it up. But I'm not thinking I'm the only one in this world who thinks of marriage sooner than 2 years.

Maw64,

The answer to your no-sex to get him to marry me question: ABSOLUTELY NOT! That is NOT who I am.

You are correct--going into this I did wish to wait until marriage. I made a mistake and I didn't. And then I buried my head in the sand and ignored my beliefs for three months, until I could ignore them no longer.

I'm not asking others to share my views or my beliefs. But what happened was that I finally realized that what I was doing wasn't right, so I did some reading of the Bible and found many verses that spoke about the eternal consequences of deliberately continuing in sin (yes, we all sin, but to continue to do it and KNOW it's wrong...that's what I read in those verses). AND, I also read may verses that spoke of sexual immorality and fornication (sex before marriage).

Basically, it is my belief that if I continue this, I am putting my BF and my beliefs before God, and that means I am rejecting God.

THAT is the reason for my decision. I am not willing to try and rationalize with God about what is right and wrong, or how bad the sin is.

LL

LL - Well, you can plan for getting married someday, to someone. The first order of business is getting yourself healed, and then getting your daughter on the right path. Otherwise you will have lots and lots of problems no matter when or who you marry.

OK I stand corrected... but I am looking at it like you had sex before you were married - you had sex during your marriage with someone else - whatever the circumstances were - and then you had a boyfriend had sex with him - then have this boyfriend whom you are very compatible with and the potential to love forever and had sex with him - now you are beating yourself up - Your mind may say this is what you believe but your actions are completely different... And I am not saying what you want to happen is not honorable and you may what your life to be like that - but maybe it isn't and it hasn't been - and that is ok - it might not be ok to you right now - but think about it.... You are beating yourself up constantly and making yourself worried sick - because you think god will be mad at you because you have sinned..... And you have done it all along... and then beat yourself up about it afterwards.... I am taking no sides here right or wrong - I believe what I believe and I am not even sharing my views - I am just interpeting what you are doing and then what you are doing to yourself in the aftermath...... God forgives everyone - and everyone has their own interpetation of what is right and what is wrong.... There are some gray areas and that is what makes everyone different... I just think you have endured alot and if you love this man - and you are happy with him..... Saying that you cannot have sex anymore because god doesn't want you to - is just plain - I don't even know what word to put here - not stupid - not idiotic - I don't know - but I think you are causing yourself alot of heartache over nothing other than maybe ruining your own happiness.... Just a thought???

Believer,

As for my daughter, things are at a point where I can't help her unless she's willing to let me, and she's not. She is making her own choices, many of which are out of my control simply because I go to work and she makes them while I'm gone. Her therapist (who determined it was not helping to see her), her school (where she is no longer attending because she failed to keep her grades up), pretty much anyone I talk to (my pastors included) have determined that all I can do is provide a safe home for her to be in when she so chooses, and to do my best to keep lines of communication open so that she doesn't shut me out, and then pray that she will wake up before it's too late. That's what I'm doing.

Maw64,

It's not the things in my past that are eating at me. I have forgiven myself for them. It's at this point, how I choose to live my future, knowing what I know is right and wrong. That's why the decision to stop. And as much as I'd like to think that saying that I can't have sex anymore just because God says so is wierd, the fact is...my interpretation of God's word is just exactly that--if you're not married, DON'T do it. God says. I don't. I'm just having trouble coming to terms with some of it.

LL

What red flags do I see besides the red flags? As you can see, the question is flawed. The "no sex" thing is not a minor detail to overlook, it goes to the very heart of your and his values, outlooks on life, etc. It will affect your daily interactions forever (even after marriage), what values you pass on to your kids, etc. It is the tip of the iceberg, the canary in the coalmine, if you will - and you are asking "What worries you besides the dead canary laying on the ground?".

He asked you a very wise question in one of his e-mails, one that I don't believe you addressed - will you always be persuadable by something you see on TV, will you always be susceptible to change your values based on something someone says, etc? Where will that stop? Will there be other surprises for him based on some new revelation from you? There are few bigger red flags in relationships than significant differences in values and religious outlooks - you keep saying that aside from this "little" difference, you are similar, but the whole relationship is based on this foundation, and if it as shaky as I see it, I wouldn't build any further.


I have no doubt that you two can spend a weekend together, watching videos, doing chores, and having passionate sex. Passionate sex makes up for many things when two people are infatuated <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. I'll be curious to see how you two interact with sex out of the picture - I suspect there will be enough tension to cut with a knife. In a way, that is precisely the reason to NOT have sex early in the relationship - sex masks a lot of flaws, and you don't want to do that during early dating.

I am not saying to dump the guy. I am saying keep seeing him and evalating him and the relationship - you are not ready for marriage to him, it is plainly evident to us here in the peanut gallery.

I would hate to see the same thing happen to you that happened a number of times in my years on the EN forum - someone gets divorced, starts dating, meets a new person, sees red flags, rationalizies them away (despite a number of us jumping all over them and pointing out the red flags), getting married, and coming back a year or so later saying everything is awful and they are getting divorced - but also saying "I don't want to hear any "told you so's". So I am telling you this now, to avoid "told you so's" - slow down and get to know this guy better, you still have major issues to resolve and address.

AGG

Nowhere have I told her to tell her BF that. Just for the record, I don't think she should tell him to take a cold shower either. But it is a fact that not having sex won't kill you. Your example is absolutely ridiculous in my view. How does obeying God (abstaining) ever become equal to cheating or infidelity????

"Do NOT minimize a guy's need for sex."
NEWS FLASH!!!! NEWS FLASH!!!! Guys aren't the only ones that like sex or get horny. Yes, I have been in pretty bad shape myself - But here I am living to tell about it.

LL - I would work on getting daughter under control. She is not going to school and you are going to work, and can't do anything about her behavior? Time for her to be out of the house.

Kids can cause a bigger problem in a relationship than almost anything. I helped raise 8, and we had many disagreements about how to do that. I'm not saying it to criticize you, but to warn you. Save yourself a lot of heartache.

Believer,

I truly understand that kids cause problems in relationships. It's caused stress in mine from time to time.

But here's where I am with my daughter: By law (even if I didn't love her or care to provide her a safe place), I am responsible as her custodial parent, until she's 18, to provide food, clothing and shelter. If I kick her out, I'm violating the law. I'm not going to push her to go live with her alcholic father--he doesn't want here there and she doesn't want to go there.

So, she has no cell phone and I fund nothing of her recreation. I make sure she has the necessities. She does still have internet--I may take that as well now that she's officially done going to school as of last week. She says she's going to apply to get her GED when she's 17 (can't do that in Iowa until at least that age).

She smokes--something I hate, but follows the "no smoking in the house" rule (so she sits out on the front step so all the neighbors probably freak out). If she drinks, that also doesn't happen on-property, nor are any of her friends, even if they're of age, allowed to bring alcohol to my place.

She's done better lately, despite lack of a cell phone of her own, letting me know where she's going. But she goes A LOT to out-of-town places on weekends, with friends.

And this trip to Salt Lake City with a friend (a girl) is just craziness. But if I involve the cops, my daughter will clam up and could disappear. Right now she's telling me what bus they're taking, she's given me her friend's cell # (which I've called her on before, so I know it's good), and she maintains that she'll call regularly and that they'll be back in a week. It's very scary--she's 16!

The other scary thing is what is she going to do when she turns 18? Because I maintain and she knows, that if she's not either in school or working full time at that age, she will not be living in my house. So she has 1.5 years to figure herself out and get her act together.

LL

As much as we are concerned for LL she is going to do what she WANTS to do regardless of how many RED flags we see..she's not seeing them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

While I'll continue reading this thread and watch y'all bang your heads against a brick wall, <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I refuse to keep telling her the same thing over and over again and have her keep trying to justify her actions. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> I feel like I'm talking to my 14 year old. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Best of luck to you LL!

Hugs

Alluring,

Okay, I am praying for guidance here. I am trying to keep an open mind. I am trying to watch for red flags. No, I don't really want to end the relationship. And yes, I hear you all saying "Whoa, watch out."

Are you saying END IT?

LL