Quick recap since I don't post often - H of 11 years has 9 month old OC from A. We have no children together. We agreed to have NC with OC/OW and work on our M.

As a condition of trying to rebuild our M, H agreed to have NC with OW/OC several months ago. We've been in therapy, and I've felt like our M has realy been improving - we talk more, communicate better, things have just "felt right" again for the most part. But a month or so ago I really got in a "funk" and felt like I needed reassurance from H that we were still on the same page, etc. He assured me that all was well, that he hadn't seen OC, etc.

We went away for the weekend and on Saturday I saw on his cell phone that OW had called. I called her back to see what the **** she wanted. She proceeds to tell me that she was just calling because H had promised to babysit OC the night before but hadn't shown up so she wanted to know what was going on. I then find out that H has been going to see OC approx. once every two weeks all this time, e-mailing OW about OC, etc. My world just fell apart during that conversation. I had actually started trusing H again and really felt like he was being honest with me and wanted us to build a life together. We had even been talking about having a child of our own if all continued well between us for several more months. What a fool I've been!!! Unfortunately we were on the trip with other people so we didn't have a chance to talk about all this until yesterday. At first he tells me he was only seeing OC so OW wouldn't think poorly of him for "abandoning" his son, then he tells me I just don't understand how hard it is for him to give up seeing his son. Well of course I don't have a personal understanding of the situation, but he has no idea how hard it's been for me to fight through all this and all that he has done. I asked H what his real plans were for the future as far as his son was concerned - did he want to be a "real" dad and really be there for the boy and spend time with him, etc. or did he just plan to show up at his convenience? Pathetic H said he hadn't even thought that far ahead! What an idiot! Last night he basicaly said that he could no longer agree not to see his son, and I said I still can't deal with having the OC in my life so we basically agreed that we should part ways. Now this morning he says he wants to talk more about it. I just don't know what to do anymore. I've fought so hard and for so long to save my M, but now I'm not so sure it's even worth saving. My H has been so selfish through all of this. Every action seems to have been one that would get him whatever he wanted at that particular moment with no regard for the long term effects to me or his child. I don't know how I can ever trust him again. It just all hurts so bad and I want it to stop, but I don't know if I'm strong enough to end this if he still says he wants to work things out. For the first time I'm really starting to feel like I would be better off without him. Sorry to be rambling, but I just had to get this all out to somebody, and we don't have another therapy appointment until next Friday.

Sorry ... this has high levels of suckage.

YOU are allowed to determine whether or not you, as an individual, are willing to stay married under these circumstances.

The most troubling part of this most recent turn of events is ~~~> the lies.

What your H has shown you is that he is willing to lie to you.

This means in plain English ---- disrespect of the worst sort.

There can be no happy marriage where one spouse feels entitled to lie to the other. No way for that to work.

What your H has said to you shows that, in his mind, the lies are justifiable.

Call the harleys. They are professionals who can give your marriage the best chance for recovery, if that is your desire.

Chances are very high that if your H believes he is allowed to lie to you and hide important facts from you ... he may very well slip into another affair.

We cannot be emotionally intimate to the person we are hiding from. it cannot work.

Call the harleys and seek counsel. You may decide to end your marriage. You certainly have that right.

again ... sorry for this mess. it sucks!

When you contact the Harleys, and I hope you do, mention that you have experienced a false recovery ....

this gives them an idea of what your needs are...

don't give up hope, but by no means should you leave all of this in the hands of your husband!!!

he is NOT to be trusted right now to do the right thing ... he is living in a divided world, and you are asking him to unite with you as a team ... that is a reasonable request for you to have.

I am SOOOO sorry.

What does he say his feelings are for OW at this point? Do you think there has been a relapse into the A?

11 years is a lot to leave behind, but wow is he putting you in a tough spot.

You're right - this totally sucks!

I really don't think there is anything going on between H and OW at this point. But I certainly don't want them spending time alone together with OC playing house and pretending to be one big happy family. We talked more over the weekend, and I have asked him to make plans to leave for a week or two to try and think things out on his own without being influenced by me or OW. I'm really hoping this will help him see all he stands to lose in our M. It will also give me a chance to try and figure out what is best for me. It would all be so much easier if we didn't get along so well other than this. I know that's really hard to believe, but we have a great time together and I do believe that he loves me. I can appreciate that it's a difficult decision for him to make - basically its me or OC, but I have no respect for the way he's gone about all this, and his actions show no respect for me. I think in his warped sense of reality he really doesn't want to hurt anybody and is just trying to make everybody happy - and convincing himself that if I don't know what's going on that I'll be "happy". The sad reality is that everybody gets hurt in this situation (except of course OW who has exactly what she wants). We have a counseling session on Friday, so I'm just trying to hang on until then. I can't wait to hear how H explains this one to the counselor. I wish I was the kind of person who could welcome OC into my life, but I just can't. In order for me to stay in this M, the OC and OW need to be put in the past where they belong. I asked H what kind of relationship he would ideally like to have with OC, and he tells me he'd just like to see him for an hour or so twice a month and on special occassions. I asked what he planned to do when the boy is older and wants to do thigs with his dad. As usual, H hadn't thought that far ahead. I just don't understand what he's thinking about all this right now, but I know it's tearing my world apart. Thanks for listening.

Conflict Avoider, big time!!!! ugh Would it do any good to point this out to him, that his avoidance only makes his life worse? Would he be willing to try to change?

I'm sorry he did this. Hiding it from you made it all the worse for everyone involved. I don't have advice (as I eventually accepted OC), but ditto seeing a counselor, even if you have to do so alone.

Take care,
"J"

I'm so sorry for you dis. I am with the others with his disrespect of your M and MC everything. Honesty is a VERY big part of the recovery, and it just seems he is doing, saying whatever he can to keep you happy and lieing to himself and everyone around him. I mean how was he going to baby sit? Where is he telling you he is?? I think time apart and for him to quit playing the games and step up and be honest about everything, maybe just what you both need.
Sunny

Have you considered phone counseling with the Harleys as Pepperband recommends?

I am considering phone counseling - at this point it certainly can't hurt. H and I have talked a few times about his conflict avoidance problem, and he admits this is an issue he is trying to work on. He has a hard time just saying "no" to anyone and is always looking for approval from other people. My big thing is, how can he not know exactly what he wants as it relates to OC? Sometimes I just want to shake the truth out of him! I'm starting to think that he knows exactly what he plans to do but doesn't want to say it because it will hurt me and figures that at some point I'll get fed up, throw him out, and he won't have to be the "bad guy". I know this sounds really stupid, but I feel like we have a pretty decent M except that I can't trust him and he doesn't respect me. We have a great time together, and since we started counseling we really are communicating better than we have in years. I just really feel like I would be betraying myself and my own best interest if I gave in and accepted contact with OC at this point. Jenny - how were you able to eventually accept OC?

Disbelief, trust and respect are very HUGE important issues! You can't survive well without them.

Janis A. Spring describes in the book "After the Affair" (large and small) CONCRETE ways your H can SHOW his effort to rebuild trust . We used that book LOTS in recovery, very good, plus get counseling! For REAL rebuilding to happen, H's got to be willing to DO these concrete things, be honest, be respectful. That way, you are *not* betraying yourself, but allowing him a last chance to take responsibility for making things right. If he does that, you can love him freely, and if he cannot make that effort consistantly, you can leave him freely. KWIM??

These are the TOOLS for rebuilding. You could give him a timeline for specific reasonable behaviors and changes you need to see.

Janis Spring wrote a follow-up called "How Can I Forgive You?" I haven't read, but editorial review at amazon.com says 4 types of forgiveness (cheap forgiveness, refusing to forgive, acceptance and genuine forgiveness)--check it out. Also, you can look up Conflict Avoider and there are books on that too. I haven't, but did read several books on forgiveness, which really helped me. Look up what forgiveness *is* and isn't.

I'll try to re-cap my long story. XOW was a 'friend' of mine (double betrayal), but my military DH got orders to move before OC was born. We had 6 years! of recovery long-distance from XOW/oc, some mail contact. We read lots, got counseling, had healing time.
Then military moved us back to xow/oc town! BEFORE we met OC, we saw counselor several times to work out OUR ground rules. DH and I agreed that if XOW disrespected us, made our lives difficult, or if our kids were negatively effected, we would cut contact. Counselor said at oc's age, even 1 meeting would help dispel some of the "mystery" of her bio-dad (H). I was very nervous, and we took visitation very, very slowly, just a couple hours per at first, checking everyone's feelings/behavior, including oc. OC turned out to be wonderful, loving, polite child who really likes us, gets along with our kids; and most amazing of all, XOW has behaved (despite some spitefulness prior to visitation).

Some people must cut contact because of XOW's immaturity. The fact xow re-married, we each live in different houses now (less reminders), had 6 years apart, used the counselors' recommendations, and (luck of the draw) ALL act mature about visitation (discuss OC only, no bringing up A, no unreasonable demands), make visitation do-able. OC being sweet makes it easy for me to look forward to her visits now. Dealing w/Xow has become less like Post Traumatic Stress and more like dealing with a co-operative ex. It's still got weird moments (mostly due to outsiders), but not as stressful as recovery and initial (physical) contact.

Most people (including my H and my kids) take my, the wife, the step-mom, cue as to how to handle it, and we're doing great. (Long term, we probably won't stay here, but OC looks forward to spending part of her school breaks with us when we're long distance.)

Visitation is not for everyone, esp. if XOW or anyone is spiteful. I give you my story just as one possibility, but you must work out what is healthy for you. I'll look up those concrete things from Spring's book if you like, but better to buy or get from library.

Hugs,
J
married 19y,
3 kids of marriage
oc 7yo