Justin, I can be judgemental about drinking sometimes. Is two glasses a day too much? I have noticed more and more people my age drink more than I thought they did. So I try not to say or think anything negative about it. I want to be able to enjoy a glass or two of wine without worrying, but I do worry because I am not sure how much is enough! The pot and the drinking together maybe a habit, it's hard to tell.

Well I suppose that's another issue.

Thanks,
Natalie

I think you have to put the drinks into context.

For example, I often have a a glass of wine (about 1/2 cup) with lunch and also with dinner. That's two drinks a day. But, it's wine with a meal, which is different, I believe from making two martinis the main course and then smoking a joint.

Again, with all negatives you have mentioned, I think there are some serious red flags being waved. Please think about this.

You are right Justin, also not just because of the flags but because I am not that in need of a man right now after two years of being on my own. It was hard but I see now that I needed the experience.

I believe he is a trusting and very kind hearted person, and I really respect and admire his intelligence, insights, faith in people, and his values, but I am not dependent on pleasing him so much to overlook my own instincts especially about the dominance towards women.

It feels to me dating is like a marketplace where we find out our value. If I am selling, then I want to be with someone who is is also up for grabs.

Thank you, Natalie

Natalie,

The more I read, the more confused I get. You say there are no romantic intentions with this guy, and that you are BOTH fine with being friends only.

Then you say that you two discuss over and over what the conditions would be for you two being more than friends. For instance, I find it strange that you tell your "friend" that a condition for you having sex with him is his son being out of the room - is that something you tell all your "friends"? And him saying that before you could be more than friends, he would need to know how you feel about sex - is that also something he tells all his "friends"? All the handholding sweet talk is also not "friends only", and I don't buy the "it just turned into a date unintentionally" line.

You say that he annoys you because he is rude, expects you to drop everything and accommodate him, drinks too much, smokes pot, and apparently makes you angry on many occasions. So then, why would you want to be friends with a guy like this? Don't we usually pick people we really like for our friends? I really think that you two are each other's emotional crutches right now, looking at each other as a possible fallback romantic partner - but neither of you is healed enough to be in a romantic relationship.

Again, I don't care if you are more than friends with this guy, it is your choice. I am just recalling your other thread where I remember you saying that you do not want to date, as you are trying to reconcile with your ex-H. If so, what you are doing with this guy will not help, IMO.

AGG

AGG, things change apparently. My ex was going to show up for a Thanksgiving dinner I gave, but blew it off-

And my friend, I said I we were friends and then at his house he started talking about sex, at no point did I know when I went to his house we would start this discussion in front of his son, do you expect me to accept that as normal?
In no way am I going to sit there and passively let someone walk right over me and make demands.
I'm female but again I am not psychic.

I am sure I don't help in the overall equation, but I did not expect him to be my emotional crutch-unless that's what you call a friend. Friends do stick around until the other one is healed, what do you expect them to do, go to therapy until they are perfect and then hang out? No one ever really recovers 100%, it's a process of acceptance.

I am a sexual person who will decide for herself what she does with her body-I am a bit defensive when being told I need to loosen up-
It's hard to understand-
but it's not healthy to push anyone into sex, for any reason.
And springing a sexual conversation on someone when she does not expect it counts as pushing.

Natalie

I got the impression that this was not just a one time thing where he suddenly turned the conversation to sex. I believe your posts state that aside from that, there has been handholding, shopping together, sweet talk, the "smell good" conversation, and stuff like that - or did all this happen in one evening?

One other thing that I am really bothered by - you keep making negative comments about "his son always being with him" - I don't know if you have any kids (apparently not), but that is about the dumbest thing to complain about, especially if you two are "just friends". It is his SON, for crying out loud, and he is, according to you, involved in a bitter custody battle over him - and you expect him to just conveniently stuff him in another room so you two can have your sweet chats or become a bit more affectionate without worrying about the son?

IMO, the guy is to be commended for spending all the time he can with his son, and if you do not get it, you should reconsider dating single dads. IMO, of course.

AGG

Natalie--

Read what I or AGG wrote. We are looking at it from guys' point of view. What you are doing, having a romantic relationship with a guy without being intimate and calling it a friendship is really confusing to him. You better chose on or the other. If you can't chose, wait to contacting him until you can. I am surprised that he still hangs around with you; most guys would have given you the heave-ho along time ago.

Let me ask you this: what kind of an advise would you as a woman give to a man on this website if he asked in a posting titled: "How do Men have Sex with Women without having to Show Affection? Without spending too much money on her?" to the following question:

[color:"red"] "I am interested in this woman. As a friend. I am not ready to enter a relationship with her. Maybe later. For now though, I just want her to come over four times a week, cook a dinner for me, have sex with me, and then leave right afterwards. I am not interested in spending any time with her, or any money on her, and above all, I really do not want to show any affection for her. I just want her as a friend. A friend to have sex with, and a friend you'll cook for me. Please help me. Why, oh why, is this so hard?" [/color]

What would you tell such a guy?

[color:"blue"] Um, hit the road?

I have the opposite problem in a lot of ways. I'll casually date a guy one or two times and then they want to become more serious and I am not interested and have to tell him so.

I got involved in the past with very selfish men who tended to be critical and domineering, but the guys I dated more recently were all very nice and easy going. They were too polite to throw a fit over whether I had honey mustard or dijon mustard, and I've yet to have a complaint (except from my young children) about what I cook.

I wouldn't think it was fair to date a guy more than 2 or 3 times before deciding that he wasn't for you and telling him so.

I would also think it is very disrespectful for a guy to start making sexual comments unless the woman maybe started it first and then would stop if she was uncomfortable with it going too far.

Affection? Well I would think a nice phone message or text message or email saying that you were thinking of the guy would be nice. Holding his arm or his hand. Straightening his collar or sitting close to him. Maybe a scratch on the back or a stroke on his cheek or hair. Hugging.

I personally don't think it is fair to make out seriously with a guy unless there is a good probability that he is going to be around for some time and the relationship is heading toward some level of higher commitment. Things progress and I'm pretty red-blooded for a female <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> so it would be as hard for me as for the guy to put the brakes on when the hormones start kicking in.

If a guy wanted to be my friend then all the "affection" stuff wouldn't even be in the picture. I wouldn't expect to do more than an occasional pat on the arm or a hug in greeting to a friend.

V. [/color]

Yes I can see you are seeing it from the man's point of view, but you don't really understand my friend at all. I already described that he was happy being friends until Sat. night when he started being romantic. Why is it that hard to believe? Am I being clear? It was clear to me that he was open to me dropping by as a friend-no mixed signals. After a few drinks, he changed his mind and began talking about women and relationships and the kind he wanted to be in. He said I smelled good, I said he smelled good too. I wondered what was on his mind besides sex because

A. he is my friend and has made it clear several times that he is not interested in me seriously because of our differences.

B. And because I believed he had another purpose to the conversation, since he used language such as I think Men should, and I think Women should.

At one point I said if you mean YOU as the man why don't you just say so?

At that point I got really mixed signals and I started to give him the same without thinking. It's normal to say, you smell good back to someone and I felt he needed reassurance to say Whatever he was trying to say.

At that point I didn't know if he wanted to marry me, tell me off, date me, or ask me to leave. Like I said several times, I am not psychic and not a mind reader. I have to wait out my friends conversation to figure out what he really means to say as he is not always quick to communicate.

As for his son, no it's not appropriate to talk about sex with your son present, unless you are talking about procreation. Where did you read I was sick of his son? Did you read the part where I complained that I did not want to have a conversation that was clearly upsetting his son?

What kind of father expects his son to learn about the birds and the bees by watching and listening to his Dad talk to a complete stranger about sex, when to the boy it means getting a new Mommy. That's quite a weight.

Do you mean you would discuss a relationship with a woman in front of your son, without any discussion with him first about what it means? And expect everything to be A-Okay? That's pretty naive, and what makes you blind to the fact that I already raised a son?

My post must have been too long or emotional to read.

Any man who puts the moves on a woman in front of his child is insecure and in need of reassurance. To reject a person who does that is very hard because that makes it a very emotional situation as then I would be rejecting both Father and Son.

And have you ever heard of something called a babysitter?

Would you expect a single mom to make out with a guy in front of her daughter? or talk about sex, or take him out and bring her daughter along?
How weird is that?

That's why there are babysitters.

While I agree in theory that it's good to spend all his time with his son, my friend is also working overtime, including working on Thanksgiving-he is trying not to spend any spare time at all with anyone BUT his son. That is unhealty as his son is not his emotional crutch.

His son needs to spend more time with his friends, because that's what he wants to do.

Please do not assume you know more about single parenthood than myself.

Thank you,
Natalie

I never said you were sick of his son, I said you were complaining about always having him in the picture. Things like this:






Now, can you humor me and show me one example where you commended him for being focused on his son.... Didn't think so...

AGG

Why does it bother you that I don't want to be sexualized in front of a little boy?

Natalie

Natalie,

"Why does it bother you that I don't want to be sexualized in front of a little boy?"

AGG never made any comments about if it's OK to be sexualized in front the boy. He clearly stated:

"One other thing that I am really bothered by - you keep making negative comments about "his son always being with him" - I don't know if you have any kids (apparently not), but that is about the dumbest thing to complain about, especially if you two are "just friends". It is his SON, for crying out loud, and he is, according to you, involved in a bitter custody battle over him - and you expect him to just conveniently stuff him in another room so you two can have your sweet chats or become a bit more affectionate without worrying about the son?"

I have to admit, I agree with AGG, the son comes first. You and this man have no relationship as far as I see it. You two were not on a date, you still have no idea what is going on between you two, this is why you are asking for our opinion.

I have been reading your posts and all I can think is, you seem to be very confused and do not need to be out there dating.

You were undecided about EX and because he blew you off now you are with this guy and you wanted to be friends with him, yet now you are wanting to talk about sex. Then you complain about his son being around.

You need to do them a favor and leave them alone, go get counseling for yourself and heal from your divorce. Everyone heal at a different pace.

It doesn't. It bothers me that you keep complaining about a father always having his 9 year old son around. The boy is not a puppy, or "baggage" - he is a hurting little child who just lost his family to a divorce, and is the focus of a bitter custody battle (your words). It bothers me to no end that you look at their closeness as an annoyance. It bothers me that you keep complaining about this child always hindering your make out time, sex talk, and lingerie shopping. You really need to back off from them.

As Immovingon said so well, you are a distraction to their lives, and from your other threads here, you are in need of much healing before you are ready for a relationship. Like Immovingon, I also would urge you to spend some time alone and away from this man and his child, you are doing more harm than good to everyone involved.

AGG

I must have faith in my instincts first, and you know it.

That means seeing the situation as it is,
Your emotions about the son are blinding you to the facts of the situation. I am not hurting this man, and what he talks about in front of his son, is my friend's responsibility, ultimately he is the parent, not I.

Natalie

Then why are you here asking for advice?


huh? When did AGG say anything about your friend talking in front of your son?

Natalie [/quote]

I dunno, judging by your other threads saying how confused you are on so many issues, I am not sure. I am not saying this to be mean, it's just that you yourself stated over and over that you are confused about dating, sex, your ex, among other things.


I only know what you post, so those are the only facts I know, you are right. Speaking of facts, do you disagree with my quotes of your statements about his son? If not, why are you saying that my emotions are blinding me to the facts? I suspect it is the other way around, Nat.

AGG

All this "he said" and "she said" bickering is getting boring.

I hate to tell you this, Nat, but this is pretty much as I would expect an average guy to act. Of course a guy will tell a woman that he is not interested in sex if he knows that she does not want to jump in the sack with him. This is quite normal. Not only because it prevents from being turned down by a woman (uncomfortable sitch for both him AND for her), but also he maintains an air of respect, and it prevents him from having to shift any power in the relationship to her. EVERY guy will tell a woman who he knows he can’t have just yet: “yes, I want to have a close relationship with you, but I don’t need sex right now.” Everyone wins!

Of course, when his inhibition is dropped, such as when he DRINKS, then he’ll be more truthful, and will make it clear that he really does want to get into her pants.

From your previous post it is clear (to me anyway, and I may be easily wrong) that the guy is frustrated with your relationship with you. And it is also apparent that you are frustrated with him.

Know any single Moms?

Me disliking my friends son being around??
I already posted that I care about his son-and tried to protect his feelings. I can't overstep my bondaries because he already has a mother.

I doubt you are sincerely concerned about my friend's son-I read nothing but observations. Nothing based on experience.

AG you already made it clear you don't support any position on this friendship.

BTW Observations do not help as much as personal experience.

Natalie

A long time ago, something like 20 yrs ago (I can't believe that I am so old <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ), I did date someone who was a single mother. She was great.

But I always knew that no matter how much we cared for each other, that our relationship will ALWAYS take a back seat to the relationship between her and her daughter. I was quite comfortable about it, and I understood it. And I made sure that nothing that I did in anyway impinged on their mom-daughter relationship.