I'm not too sold on this "mental adultery" theory. Like you said AverageGuy, this stuff happens EVERY DAY in regards to people staring at others' with lust in their hearts. Though to me LUST is too strong a word. If your mate is looking with LUST at others, then you've got serious problems, more than just closet porn viewing.

I think what it really boils down to is are you emotionally and physically secure enough in yourself to feel confindent to understand and relate to your mate looking at other attractive members of the opposite sex? I am. As long as I'm not lusting after another or the wife isn't, I'm more than secure. It's okay to look at the menu, as long as you come home for dinner...

I used to lust after other girls, when I was a closet porn viewer and my marriage was rocky. I didn't care, and it had a REAL noticeable effect on the marriage. I'm not ugly, so the fact that I could have just strayed and done whatever I pleased was tempting, but that doesn't solve anything.

The porn was used as a way to keep my libido in check and relieve stress. My wife didn't really receive any explanations of why either, though. I just couldn't tell her that I thought we were through. It wasn't until we hit rock bottom that I let everything out. Turns out (unlike some here would have you believe) that my wife was just as interested in watching porn (softcore) as I was, but years of opposing porn, left her in a deadlock on how to approach me on the situation.

We don't NEED porn to make love to, or stimulate us in order to copulate. We use it as an extension of our fantasies and as a sexual tool. It's nice hearing others moan, and gives you some great ideas for various positions! As well, the extra added visual stimulation can turn a so-so climax into a GREAT one! On average- of the 8-10 or so times every two weeks we make love (the wife and I), porn is used once in our lovemaking. It's FAR from being a crutch.

EndlessHorizon, as I said earlier, I am retiring from the discussion about Porn, but if you want to continue a discussion about God and/or the Origins of Life, I'll accomodate you for a while on another thread, because another poster has joined the Porn discussion and talk of "religion" would be distracting and potentially upset her.

So I'll toss out a little here, and then if you want to continue it on another thread, have at it. I have NO desire to convince you of God's existance, much less of Jesus Christ as the Son of God. You already have enough facts on that subject and have chosen to follow other "unproveable" "gods."

So I'll keep my response brief for the benefit of other potential readers who might not be so antagonistic, or arrogant, about the "God of Scripture" as you like to put it. Oh ya, I forgot, it's "okay" for nonbelievers to ATTACK believers, but it's not "okay" for believers to defend themselves or to point out the falacies in the "reasoning" of the attackers. So much for the touted "fairness and open-mindedness" argument.



No, what gets you is that you can't explain the idea of LIFE, much less intelligent life, forming the complex state necessary to sustain life and to be reproducable. You prefer the concept of toss the "elements" on the ground and wait for "the god called time and the goddess of random chance" to assemble the skyscraper without any conscious intervention, direction, or design. And you want to accuse ME of "believing in flat-earth theories?!?!"

Let's be honest here for a minute, EH. There are only TWO possibilities for ORIGINS, the random chance of evolution OR the creative will of a Living God who created according to HIS will and purpose.

If it is NOT God, it doesn't matter how long the universe has existed or when LIFE began from "non-life."

If it IS God, then a few days, a few thousand years, whatever timescale one wants, GOD is capable of superceding "physical laws" with His creative power.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of sad tidings yet again, but you are in the same realm of FAITH, not facts, in your "religion" of "evolution" as the cause of all that is.

It does not matter how large the universe MAY actually be, it matters HOW it began. You totally glossed over the Quantum Physics reference whereby scientists believe that the "current" universe "formed" as a "bubble" out of NOTHINGNESS. Sounds vaguely familiar. Sort of like ....in the beginnning God created..... that God "spoke" the universe into existance out of nothing and God continues to sustain the universe by His power until the "end of time" is fulfilled.




EndlessHorizon, you can fool yourself that you are attacking me, but it's not me who you ARE attacking. It IS God who you are attacking and I just happen to be "in the line of fire" because you are trying to kill the message and the messenger just "got in the way," since you CAN talk directly to me. That's okay. I fully understand the idea of "scoffers" and the "as it was in the days of Noah" concept of denial of God. I understand that Noah trusted and obeyed God while the rest of the people ridiculed him for building the Ark that God had commanded. Oh ya, I forgot, you probably also don't believe in the possibility, much less the reality, of a worldwide Flood. So let's amend that to the same "me" attitude of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, who were beyond help and reason. In short, the idea of submitting one's will to God is "not in their vocabulary or volition."



Nor can I understand (I really can understand, but it's the same sort of ridiculous argument you stated in the quote) how you can just be so brainwashed by scientists with a lot of theories and no proof of Origins.




No, EndlessHorizon. Christianity differs from ALL other religions because it is based on Jesus Christ. Without Jesus Christ and the bodily resurrection, Christianity would be just as "useless" a belief as is your belief, or any other "religion" of the world.

Christianity stands or falls on the person of Jesus Christ.

YOU have steadfastly refused to examine that person, preferring to "argue" by ridicule. Hardly a testament to enlightened or "superior" thinking, wouldn't you agree? Is there something that you are afraid of in examining the facts about Jesus?

I will grant you that MANY "religions" have been started for the purpose of controlling others for the founders "benefit." Charles Taze Russell, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, to name just a few. The same is true of many Eastern religions.

But Christianity stands on Christ, His resurrection from the dead, and on the revealed will of God as recorded in Scripture. Regardless of all the "opinions," there WILL be a "judgment" and the truth will be known by all. The saddest words at that time will be "away from me, I never knew you."




Nice try EH. You have been stating your OPINIONS as "proof." That's not the same thing as PROOF. What "original thinking" have you been stating, or have you merely been regurgitating the "standard evolutionist circular reasoning" as "proof?"

"Start coming up with something original that people can really believe in" Why? I don't have to "reinvent" the wheel. It's already been invented. Or do you mean that we "toss out" previously proven facts and substitute OPINION in an effort to be "original?"


Right...."good answer" and a good way to avoid examining the facts.

Everything from physics, to cosmology to my own belief that everything is reflected by each other, gods included. Many of the links I have provided show insights into exactly HOW theories and science-fiction become science-fact. At one time, sound travelled in waves!? Preposterous! Yet sure enough we have proof sprung from the theory. Radar. We can split atoms- again, this was merely conjucture until proven, and now we can blow the world up in a few minutes.

We're now getting down into Quantum Mechanics and throwing Einstiens' "organized" realm of structure to the birds, and tending to believe in Chaos/Uncertainty Theory instead. Theory brings about great changes, NOT some old dusty book that someone wrote with who knows what motives behind them...

And, no, I'm not attacking the religion, just the zealot defending it. I have already stated my claim that I believe religion serves a purpose in the grand scheme of things, right OR wrong.

Actually, I think this conversation between you and I is done, and I'm going to be the stronger man, and bow out of it while we both still have some dignity. I think it's time I address Suzet* now, and answer her questions without the fear of you tag-teaming me. You know my stance, so deal with it.

Although I agree with most of your views on porn, we do have serious differences of opinion on Olbers' Paradox. This tends to be explained in elemenary astronomy classes. Mathematically, Olbers' Paradox in no paradox, but a simple misunderstanding on comparing infinite numbers. The reason you have black sky at night is because the low density of stars compared to their projection. The sky is dark for the similar reason why .3 + .03 + .003 + .0003 + ... is not more than one, but simply adds to a third.

Hubble's constant measures the mean expansion of the universe (the latest fig I think is still around 42 km/s/MPc, if my memory serves me), and does not figure into Olbers' Paradox. How could it? During the early history of universe, the sky was light, despite the same (or even higher) Hubble's constant.

And your understanding of red shifting is simply wrong. While the energy of light does decrease with the speed of objects, you simply cannot have an object that moves at a speed which outruns light. See your introductory books on astronomy.

Scientists don't need to proove anything, that isn't the point of science. They just find the best explanations they can with the technology they currently have at their disposal.


There are no facts about Jesus, there is no historical evidence that anyone by that name ever existed. All accounts written of him were written long after anyone who would ever have been alive in his supposed time period died.


Excuse me? Your attitude about any religion other than Christianity is extremely insulting. Just what, pray tell, did Buddha gain by sharing his wisdom with others? How exactly did he benefit from his teachings? Same for Hinduism and Shinto? Exactly which Eastern religion are you trying to slander here? Whose religion do you plan to insult next? If you can't discuss religion in a civilized manner than maybe you shouldn't discuss it at all.

• You're right, he's a boogeyman. Even worse.

• Absolutely. I have always stated that my view is my opinion only. I too have the same ideals as the Christian outlook on marriage (for the most part). I'm just a little more current and up-to-date. I can incorporate the technology advancement into my lifestyle, I'm not sure you can. You seem to blame the medium for all marital ills. Following Christianity won't ensure a proper, healthy marriage at all now, does it? Are you a just a moderator, or did you need these MB services at one point in time too? Especially relating to infidelity where I have posted this topic. If you did, you can hardly say you or your husband truly incorporates ideal Christian values into your marriage.

• You're right, but porn is NOT illegal to me, nor is it a sin. Furthermore, to illustrate my "moral" complexity, it IS okay to steal from large, greedy corporations, but not okay to steal from the poor. I have the benefits of not having that "oh-so-fine" distinction between right and wrong.
  
  It's more than obvious what is right, especially when industries like the pharmaceutical and oil industries are hanging us out to dry. The people at the tops of those industry should need to answer to people like me, and we'll show them where it's really at. Anyway, stealing is wrong when it's only the little guy doing it? What about your government stealing or the industry it regulates... IS IT OKAY THEN BECAUSE THEY SAY SO!? You seem to be okay with that... that's worrisome.

• Yes, I'm okay with that. The DRUGS aren't going away either, so let the governmental agencies distribute the dope, cutting out the middle-man gang-bangers, while insuring quality control. Selling pot in variety stores for cheap not ONLY will increase governmental revenues, BUT also keep that hardcore smoker from trying a CHEAP alternative high... example Crystal Meth, which is causing WAY more problems then it's worth.

• You're right, but if a large enough percent decide they WILL use it, who are you to decide if it's right or wrong, good or bad? Need I remind you that alcohol was banned at one time? In my opinion pot is infinitely less destructive than alcohol EVER will be.

• Narrow, not narrow-minded.

• Do I really need to proclaim my faith to God in order to follow the Christian model of moral codes and conduct? Again, that's a narrow-minded approach, not at all what I want my children to see set as an example.

• My family includes 2 children. So NO I do not want them to view that walking down the street, giving the impression that that's the "norm". Because it's not. I also play violent video games in which I'm portrayed as a special ops member hosing down people with guns and rockets. Does this mean I am proactive for war or against it? Does it mean I wish my children to see how to sneak up behind a man, and saw his throat open with a hunting knife? I'll let you decide that for yourself.

• Exactly. If you don't support it, simply DON'T.

• Quite the contrary. I am VERY respectful of those around me, AND my environment. I treat others as I would wish to be treated myself. That is one of my prime motivators in my life lesson. Please, don't put me into such a negative light. I'm really not a bad person, I just tend to view things a bit more spiritually than you would make me out to be.

• Again, my main goal was primarily metaphorical. He "roared" like a lion, hence we ****** like animals. Oh, and we as mammals, ARE classified as animals. Homo Sapien Sapien to be exact.

• I NEVER once intended to let my opinion be known as gospel. This is a public message board, and is intended (or so I thought) for those needing marital help, regardless of who it comes from, irrespective of background, creed, or colour. In fact, I never had a CLUE this was the Christian Marriage Builders' website. Why doesn't the title reflect that? Does Dr. Harley endorse this type of religious persecution/banter on his boards?

• I never ONCE suggested that she follow my lead. In fact I argued against it. If my wife wanted me to stop now? Yes, I would. A month ago? No. It was a respect issue. Probably something a lot of the posters here complaining about porn use have within their own marriages.

• No, I don't use Swimwear mags to beat-off. I use video PORN! LOL Why would I use something as archaic as my imagination and a magazine?! When it comes to my fantasies about porn viewing, yeah, mainly my wife was ALWAYS the star of the show. I'd gain gratification imagining herself sitting beside me, getting turned on as much as me, and possibly having the things depicted onscreen being done to her. It's not dishonouring her, it's including her.
  
  She was shocked that I would like to share her with another man, but aroused beyond belief. Is THAT dishonouring her, or myself tell me? We use the porn as a method of NOT having a threesome, but instead fantasizing about it constructively, instead. Despite my fantasy about wishing my wife to be with myself and another man/woman (or me with her and another woman), it will never happen, and we both know it. Being able to talk about it is SO liberating though!

• My wife didn't perform well in bed. Before our "incident" our sex life was NEVER talked about. It sucked, and was very damaging to our relationship.

• I was assuming a Static Universe Model suggested by FH's postulations that everything has been "counted" and is NOT moving. Nothing more than that. I am not going to argue if it's a paradox or not. It's simply known as that. Sorry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

• No, your interpretation of my meaning is wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Let me recap: "...the point is that once we reach a point so distant from ourselves that a galaxy recedes at the velocity of light in a vacuum, light from that galaxy cannot reach us." The redshift is extended infinitely so as no light would ever reach us. Period.

*edit* Oh I see where you got mixed up. My bad. "...receding from us faster than..." should be meant to read "...receding AS fast as light..."

EndlessHorizon - nope, you don't, and yes you can. In fact, I, for one, would be happy if you DID follow the "Christian model or moral codes and conduct?" But you don't. You may choose to follow those that you think are "okay" for you, but you reject the ones that might "interfere" with your choices.

schnln - For someone as opinionated and "worked up" as you seem to be, you are woefully lacking in your knowledge about the writings about Christ. Is that intentional, or is really just an emotional reaction because you are afraid to actually examine the HISTORICITY question?

Using your logic, there are very few things that are written about in history that could be accepted as "fact," yet you DO accept them quite readily. What IS it about Jesus Christ that so gets your undies in a bundle?



I'm sorry if you are offended. I suppose it should be okay for me to be offended by the attacks of others but that I should not be accorded the same "right." But you weren't there and you can't say with any certainty "what" was in the minds of the creators of the Buddhist, Taoist, Shintoist, etc. religions either. I was responding to the "slander" of EndlessHorizon against Christianity, so where is your "outrage" about a "civilized" discussion of Christianity? Even YOU don't follow your own "standard" of a civilized discussion. Instead you launch into an attack against Christianity with your opinionated pronouncement that "There are no facts about Jesus, there is no historical evidence that anyone by that name ever existed. "

What would you do IF you were presented with historical evidence that Jesus DID exist and your assertion was proved false?

Let me make it simple for you. The FACT that Jesus of Nazereth existed is indisputable from the historical evidence. Whether or not that same Jesus was also the "Son of God" and the prophecied Messiah of Israel, and the Savior of the World, is a judgment based upon a review of the facts. ACCEPTING Jesus as one's personal Lord and Savior is a matter of FAITH.

You've got to be kidding!




Look, horizon, this is a very common misconception, which I encountered among my students many times when I was teaching an introductory astronomy course at a top research university (no, I don’t do astronomy anymore <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> ; I’ve got kids to feed and universities pay squat).

There is a positive relationship between the speed of a receding object and the lengthening of the wavelength of EM radiation. Faster it moves away from you, greater the red-shift. I do not recall the equation, but any introductory astrophysics book will give it to you.

Your point that “galaxy recedes at the velocity of light in a vacuum” is simply false. Any introductory physics book will explain to you that objects do not travel at the speed of light. Yes, they can travel a fraction of speed of light, but never at the speed of light.

By the way, rest assured that while there are a number of objects that have been observed to be greatly red-shifted, none of them may be called “galaxies”. Galaxies are simply too recent cosmological structures, and way too faint to be observable at such great distances at which highly red-shifted objects are observed. You need to be looking for much older and much brighter objects.

In any case, light from any object, whether it is stationary or receding, will emit light that travels at exactly the same speed to an observer. Thus, even if you have a quasar that recedes at say 90% of c, the light that we’ll observe will be extremely red-shifted, but it still will be have a velocity of light as if the quasar is stationary vis-à-vis us. Thus a light will still reach us. Sorry, no object can outrun light. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Horizon,

Sorry for my delay in response. I’m currently on leave from work. I will start post/read again from the 9th of January next year (when I return to work). However, today I’ve decided to take a quick look at this thread and I see you have responded to my post and therefore I want to respond on a few things you’ve said:

Yes Horizon, certainly I can use technology to my advancement (if I couldn’t I wouldn’t be able to communicate with you right now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />) BUT I (like everyone else) can make the choice to use the technology positively in my life and not in a way which will degrade and cause damage to myself and my marriage… But… there was a time in my life I thought I used the technology to my advancement, when in fact I did the exact opposite: I’ve used computer technology (e-mail) to develop and maintain an opposite sex friendship…and as you know this has caused me to end up in an infidelity forum…as a FWW who have committed “mental adultery” and was tempted to have an A.

Therefore, from my experience, technology advancement is just one of the other methods Satan use in this modern world of today to try to destroy and/or tempt people into sin. The same with computer technology and communication like Internet and e-mail. Also things like instant messaging on cell phones etc. All these things make it so much easier for people to be tempted into A’s and even get involved into them… It’s with very good reason that Shirley Glass (author of the book “NOT just friends” called opposite sex friendships (especially at the workplace), and opposite sex friendships developed though Internet, e-mail etc. the NEW type of infidelity.

Too many people are not aware of the dangers (even the dangers of technology) and then end up in all kind of tempting situations which can lead to sinful behavior. And yes, this also happen to “good” people with strong marriages… Even to Christians and people with strong morals and conscience. The thing is, EVERYONE can be tempted into sin. NO ONE is excluded from Satan’s efforts to try and destroy people…not even people who are following God and believe in Him... Satan doesn’t want any person to follow God and be saved, and this is why he will especially focus on children of God and try to destroy them and bring them to a fall…so that they can not received salvation and eternity. I myself have experienced this first hand…but God is always true to His promises and have provided a way out for me before things could get out of hand…

In the Word God promise His children that He will not allow them to be tempted above their strengths and that He will always provide a way out in such a situation (I don’t have the exact verse with me right now, but I will look it up and post it if you are interested). And I can testify how God have used circumstances in my life to prevent the inappropriate friendship with XOM to develop any further (if you want to know more I can send you a link)…and I think God did this because He knew that further involvement with XOM would be “above my strengths” and that I probably wouldn’t be able to resist the temptation any further at that time. And He probably knew that further involvement and giving in to the temptation would be too much for me to handle and would probably totally destroy me…

Script says that the Spirit is willing but the flesh is weak and that there is a constant struggle between Spirit and flesh…between doing good and doing evil and I, as a Christian but also a human being with weaknesses and sin, know the meaning of these words so well… Satan know my weakest point is my thoughts and I’m always aware of his effort to attack me where I feel the most weak… This is why I’ve said at the beginning of this thread that I still have struggles and have to fight “the fight” in my thoughts, but I also know I have God’s Spirit within me to give me the strength and resist those thoughts. It’s all about choice.

No, not at all…but I know technology can certainly contribute to it in a major way…and sometimes without people realizing it (see my response above).

I believe if Christianity and the Godly view of marriage is followed 100% e.g. if BOTH spouses stay close to God EVERY DAY and do everything they possibly can to stay on the right path according to God’s will and for their marriage – then yes, it CAN ensure a proper, healthy marriage. But it doesn’t mean that such spouses are immune against temptation…as I’ve said above, Satan will especially focus on the children of God and will try to destroy them… And Satan also hates Godly marriages and will do anything he can to destroy that too... Therefore, it’s the spouses choice if they will give in to the temptation and sinful behavior or if they will continue to use the Spirit of God within themselves to fight the flesh and temptation. Certainly following Christianity will not ensure a temptation-free life, but it can certainly prevent a person from acting on temptations and giving in to it. Again, it’s all about choice.


Horizon, I’m not a moderator (huh???), I’m a member of this board who yes, have needed the MB services at one point. I just want to add here Horizon that the fact that I’m a Christian and don’t want to disappoint God, is one of the MAIN reasons I resisted further involvement with XOM during my inappropriate friendship… The temptation was huge, but my Christian beliefs, morals & values helped keeping me from acting on my inappropriate thoughts and feelings. So, even during the time I temporarily lost my way and was in the “fog”, the Spirit of God was still there to protect & help me… I was not tempted above “my strengths” and God provided a way out just in time...

Horizon, the fact that I post here because of infidelity and was once tempted to have an A, doesn’t mean that I don’t truly try to incorporate Christian values into my marriage NOW. You see, I’m not defined by my past actions Horizon. This is so because I’m forgiven by God and he have removed my sins as far as the East from the West. I’ve learned from my mistakes and I use the lessons and wisdom I’ve gained from it to become a better person and have a better marriage NOW and in the future.

No, I’m not okay with that…I’m not okay with ANY type of stealing – not with the government stealing nor the “little guy” doing it. I don’t understand when and where you’ve made the assumption that I think its okay for a government to steal. HUH??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Please don’t lay words in my mouth Horizon.

Well Horizon, everyone have the right to decide for themselves and form their own opinions, but since you have asked me the above question, I can turn it around and ask you the same e.g. who are you to decide that porn use is good and right? Who are you to decide “mentally adultery” and “adultery of the heart” is NOT a sin if the Word of God states the exact opposite?

You don’t have to answer – just something for you to think about… <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Tachyons can.